Crisis Mode hot running 505 wedge, 4 core Champion Radiator or Oem Mopar 4 core?

[1Bad70Charger]

OK, Have brand new 505 stroker engine 10:6 compression running HOT with 4 core Chamipion Radiator, fans and shroud!  Running 160 stat and its working.

I am in in crisis mode now as my engine builder, has tried a lot of different stuff so far and thinks I need to go to Mopar oem 4 core 440 radiator, with the oem style fan and shroud (I don't agree with him and want your objective opinions).

In order  not to have cooling issues we went with the biggest 26 inch 4 core Champion Radiator with dual fans and alum shroud that goes around the fans that Champion supplys.

My only question for this thread is your honest opinion whcih of the two radiiators, fans, and shrouds, will keep me running cooler, and please state your reasons why and personal experience on this issue.

THANK YOU KINDLY in advance!  

[FLG]

Do you happen to be using a 440 source aluminum WP housing? If so...thats your problem

If not, hows your jetting? are you running lean?

[1Bad70Charger]

Do you happen to be using a 440 source aluminum WP housing? If so...thats your problem

If not, hows your jetting? are you running lean?

Hey Bro

No to the 440 source and according to tuner running on the rich side but I think he needs to go richer on this new engine! 

Did you put in your new Engle Cam that I sold you?  If yes, I bet you love it? 

[FLG]

Thanks again for the parts 


Engine is still in pieces, just need to get some rocker arms (already got some nicey ported eddys  )

How about your WP what are you running? Also what size pulley? I know people can have issues with miss matched pulley setups causing the WP to move too slowly or too fast.

Might be simple but have you checked that your T-Stat is opening fully? Ive had brand new t-stats be bad...from now on i always check them in a pot of boiling water before use.

Is this happening at idle or while driving? Are you running a clutch fan? Is it slipping?

How "new" is the engine? Its typical for a brand new engine to run warm until things have loosened up a bit, also how hot is hot?

[1Bad70Charger]

Too many questions for me right now bro have to hit the sack I am beat and FRUSTRATED!! 

Give me your opinions on my radiator question bro if you have one, and reasons why one gets the nod over the other.

Thanks man!

Your going to LOVE that Engle K58/60 cam you bought from me new in the box! 

[FLG]

LOL I just got back from work so im still wide awake 


Hmm,

Actually thinking about it, a 4 core might not be as efficient as a 2-3 core simply because your now loosing surface area..id make sure everything is good to go before changing radiators but its possible your loosing too much surface area with that 4 core causing issues...fins per square inch is more important than row count. For comparisons sake, i think Ron is running a dual pass on his 572

Cant wait to hear that cam 

[HPP]

Ditto some of what FLG asked.

How hot is hot? When is it hot; idling, in traffic, at speed? Rule of thumb-at low speed, air flow, at high speed, water flow, either too fast or too slow. What pulleys? Have you verified thremostat operation? How many miles on the set up? You mention a Champion 4 core radiator, is it aluminum or brass?

Personally, I'm not a big electric fan advocate simply because in some instances, they cannot pull enough air and have inefficient shroud designs. Ditto many flex fan arrangements. This is where the OEM design shroud and fans can pull mucho more flow and with a thermal clutch unit, be much more efficient at it. Brass is a better thermal conductor than aluminum, which may be why your engine builder is suggesting the change, however, aluminum is stronger so you can build more efficient tube layouts with it.

[oldkimmer]

............Try a 180 Tstat.........kim...........

[1Bad70Charger]

............Try a 180 Tstat.........kim...........

Instead of the 160 I am using?

Would you really expect that change to solve my issue?

[MSRacing89]

Could be as simple as timing.  Not enough initial timing a big motor will make it run hot.  I would start there.  If you are sitting 10 or 12 initial, go to 19 or 20 and you will most likely see a dramatic improvement.

Personally I go with the Flex-a-lite 6 blade fan with a stock style shroud.  Fan to be 2" from radiator and we have never had cooling issues. 

[Cooter]

Ok, Go ahead and pull your hair out, make up cuss words for that thing, replace the radiator 21 times, with 21 different radiators, swap fans/shrouds another 10 times and when it's all said and done, that thing will run 200-220 degrees on a 100 degree day I don't give a shit what you do to it...


Just sayin'...

However, you might think of dumping that 4 core radiator for a newer aluminum onbe with dual 1" cores, and that 160 degree thermostat will actually make it run hotter than the 180 by moving water through the engine too fast...BTW: Rule of thumb, DO NOT RELY ON THE FACTORY TEMP GAUGE...And if isn't putting coolant on the ground or in the overflow tank, then it's happy....

[1Bad70Charger]

Ok, Go ahead and pull your hair out, make up cuss words for that thing, replace the radiator 21 times, with 21 different radiators, swap fans/shrouds another 10 times and when it's all said and done, that thing will run 200-220 degrees on a 100 degree day I don't give a shit what you do to it...


Just sayin'...

However, you might think of dumping that 4 core radiator for a newer aluminum onbe with dual 1" cores, and that 160 degree thermostat will actually make it run hotter than the 180 by moving water through the engine too fast...BTW: Rule of thumb, DO NOT RELY ON THE FACTORY TEMP GAUGE...And if isn't putting coolant on the ground or in the overflow tank, then it's happy....

Cooter, she will run up to 240 or 250 if I don't shut her off at 220 right now.

My question, with this Champion 4 core 26 inch radiator I have am I better off with a 180 stat in your opinion vs the 160.

Also, on the open road the temps should drop and they don't so general rule of thumb is radiator is moving water to fast or too slow.

What do you recommend, I don't want to give up on this radiator yet and shell out another $1,000 if I can avoid it, or do you fell the CHampion radiator (made in China) is a piece of shit simpy incabalbe of doing its job?

THank you! 

[firefighter3931]

Jim, how is the water circulation across the top of the rad with the cap off and thermostat open ?

What waterpump/housing are you running ?

Is the trans plumbed into the rad or stand alone tranny cooler ?

What is the initial timing at idle ?
 
Float level in carb ?


Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Jim, how is the water circulation across the top of the rad with the cap off and thermostat open ?-Tuner looked at this seemed normal to him.

What waterpump/housing are you running ?-He is using a new Edelbrock waterpump assume mechanical not certain and believe housing is stock but not positive.

Is the trans plumbed into the rad or stand alone tranny cooler ?-Not certain think its stand alone but will find out but coolant was running hot quicky while tranny temps where cool (have tranny temp gauge also).

What is the initial timing at idle ?-Don't know and he does not seem to be concerned about what it is (think its time for  a new tuner).
 
Float level in carb ?-Don't Know.

Why do I know if you could wrench on this thing for about 1 hour Ron my problems would be solved!  


Ron

[firefighter3931]

What is the initial timing at idle ?-Don't know and he does not seem to be concerned about what it is (think its time for  a new tuner).
 

Jim.... as i said in the PM start by installing the Black bushing in your MSD distributor and bump up the base timing to 18* at idle and report back. 

The timing is coming in waay too late and this is certainly contributing to your overheating issues. 

Your "tuner" must be used to working on Chevy's 



Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

What is the initial timing at idle ?-Don't know and he does not seem to be concerned about what it is (think its time for  a new tuner).
 

Jim.... as i said in the PM start by installing the Black bushing in your MSD distributor and bump up the base timing to 18* at idle and report back.  

The timing is coming in waay too late and this is certainly contributing to your overheating issues.  

Your "tuner" must be used to working on Chevy's  



Ron

Thank you Ron and everyone else   and Ron, your 100% correct, he is primarily a Chevy guy and this explains everything!  

[MSRacing89]

Could be as simple as timing.  Not enough initial timing a big motor will make it run hot.  I would start there.  If you are sitting 10 or 12 initial, go to 19 or 20 and you will most likely see a dramatic improvement.

Personally I go with the Flex-a-lite 6 blade fan with a stock style shroud.  Fan to be 2" from radiator and we have never had cooling issues. 

Did I mention the timing thing already???  Sometimes! 

Trust us when say its not the radiator.  Its either the tune or the way its moving air.

[1Bad70Charger]

Could be as simple as timing.  Not enough initial timing a big motor will make it run hot.  I would start there.  If you are sitting 10 or 12 initial, go to 19 or 20 and you will most likely see a dramatic improvement.

Personally I go with the Flex-a-lite 6 blade fan with a stock style shroud.  Fan to be 2" from radiator and we have never had cooling issues.  

Did I mention the timing thing already???  Sometimes!  

Trust us when say its not the radiator.  Its either the tune or the way its moving air.

OK, thanks to Ron I have check with the tuning and the intial timing is at least 18 and he is running the proper black bushing in my new MDS Distributor.  Ron thinks it releated to the tune on the carb and it may be.

We have tried lots of stuff so far from removing the themostat completely, to doing the oppossite by putting in a restrictor to slow down the water movement, to no avail.  

He has checked the thermostat and has seen it move the water when it reached 160 and also is convinced its working b/c it was closed when he removed. I FUQNKING asked him twice to do the water boiling test when it was out and he said he would and did not and that type of shit drives me nuts and why we will probably be amicably parting ways after one more attempt to get this resolved.

Here is ONE HUGE FACTOR that has to be related to water movement issue, the car does NOT START TO COOL DOWN AT ALL when you hit the open road, even if you hit the open road and its only 190 when you get there.  IT Still creeps up in the heat until I have to shut it down and cool her off at 220*. 

He spec'ed out some high volume edelbrock water pump (think it mechanical) and between the carb tune, not enought fans and water pump, I bet one of those will solve the problem and time will tell soon enough I hope!! 

[MSRacing89]

The carb is not going to have that dramatic of an effect on the temperature.  If you are close on timing and the thing seems to drive ok, than I would for sure be looking another direction.

I would be looking at the pump at this point.  Making sure the belt isn't slipping or something simple like that.  What does your lower radiator hose look like?  Is it collasping?  Second thing I would do is go back to a stock shroud and 6 blade fan. 

[1Bad70Charger]

The carb is not going to have that dramatic of an effect on the temperature.  If you are close on timing and the thing seems to drive ok, than I would for sure be looking another direction.

I would be looking at the pump at this point.  Making sure the belt isn't slipping or something simple like that.  What does your lower radiator hose look like?  Is it collasping?  Second thing I would do is go back to a stock shroud and 6 blade fan. 

The car is running FANTASITIC otherwise in every area.  Just not gettting enough air through that darn radiator or the water pump I bet. If that fails will be going with the best oem looking modern Glen Ray Radiator, shroud and mechanical fan set-up, and I bet that does the job for sure (or my $ back per Glen Ray guarantee). 

[FLG]

Might be obvious, but have you checked to make sure the temp reading is accurate?

[1Bad70Charger]

Might be obvious, but have you checked to make sure the temp reading is accurate?

Yes, this new big block is running HOT, HOTTER AND HOTTEST!! Keeps on climbing after driving long enough where I have to shut her down at 220* not to hurt the new eninge.

Even when she is only at 190 b/c just warming up temps DO NOT drop but just keep on climbing on the open road at 50 mph with no traffic!!   

[68r/t]

It may even have a head gasket issue, is it dumping water out of the overflow when you shut it off?

[1Bad70Charger]

It may even have a head gasket issue, is it dumping water out of the overflow when you shut it off?

NO, zero, almost positive not related to engine build itself.  Does not spit any coolant out or leak any fluids at all.  

I do have my old big block 26 inch radiator for my car that I ran with no shroud last year with its weak 440 engine.  

I think it makes sense for me to go back to that with its mechanical fan set-up, come up with a shroud, and I wouldn't be surprised if my problem was solved.

Last year car ran cool with this radiator and with no shroud would only heat-up when stuck in bad traffic on hot days?

Don't you guys think this makes sense to try next?

[firefighter3931]

JIm does your lower rad hose have a spring in it ? If not, the waterpump will collapse the hose and cut off flow. 

I would look closely at the water circulation across the top of the rad and make sure it's moving briskly when you blip the throttle.

A lean condition will certainly make it run hot....double check the float level. 

with a 1300rpm idle it's on the main circuit instead of the idle circuit...carb mods may be in order if you can't idle it down with the 4 corner idle.


Ron