Uh oh! Holley clear sight plugs?

[Troy]

So I was tracking this little "hiccup" when I stomp the gas (fixed the humongous bog!) in my Challenger 440 Six Pack clone. I had read that the fuel level should be about midway up the hole to keep from starving the engine and burning a piston when it goes lean. The best way to do this was using the clear plugs so I got some. Well, I got everything tuned and when I pulled the plugs out to swap the brass plugs back in I noticed the clear plugs had broken and the ends were missing. I'm positive these are now floating around in my fuel bowls and the car will stall at idle frequently now. I figured I could pull off the bowls but my fuel lines appear to be stuck tight and I can't seem to get anything to come apart. I tried PB Blaster to see if I could "unstick" them but that didn't seem to work. Other than mangling or cutting them (a new line is only $50), is there a trick to getting this apart so I can fix another self-inflicted problem?

Troy

[charger Downunder]

Those six pack lines are a bugger to undo. Make sure you use a pipe spanner on them, i find that giving it a quick tap with a hammer brakes them loose. I  would buy a spare set of fuel lines before proceeding don't over tighten them when you put them back on. As for the Holley site plugs i have them on mine and they haven't broken. You may have over tightened them which is easy to do. I found middle carb just dribbling out of site hole. Front and rear carb just above site hole.

[Charger´69]

That same thing happened to me also with my new Holley Street Avenger 770cfm  Those plugs just dropped off, I had to use needle to screw ends off from carb. Mine didn´t fall into fuel bowls. I wonder how could this happen, because I didn´t overtight those I think because I knew those broke easily.. Well I learned that I won´t never use those again, what a poor quality 

[terrible one]

Maybe they can't stand up to the ethanol

[Troy]

Those six pack lines are a bugger to undo. Make sure you use a pipe spanner on them, i find that giving it a quick tap with a hammer brakes them loose. I  would buy a spare set of fuel lines before proceeding don't over tighten them when you put them back on. As for the Holley site plugs i have them on mine and they haven't broken. You may have over tightened them which is easy to do. I found middle carb just dribbling out of site hole. Front and rear carb just above site hole.

I have line wrenches so I don't strip them out. However, the fuel line itself is spinning and not the fitting so if I go too far it will just twist. I tried hitting it with a hammer but it didn't budge. The fittings on the carbs themselves are blocked so I can only get a wrench on the front carb. Maybe I'll try undoing the lines at the 'T' fittings first? No matter, I have new lines and gaskets on the way for when I do manage to break something.

That same thing happened to me also with my new Holley Street Avenger 770cfm  Those plugs just dropped off, I had to use needle to screw ends off from carb. Mine didn´t fall into fuel bowls. I wonder how could this happen, because I didn´t overtight those I think because I knew those broke easily.. Well I learned that I won´t never use those again, what a poor quality 

My brass plugs fit very tightly and only have about 3 threads. These had about 7-8 threads and an o-ring. I just snugged them up but they were leaking a bit so I gave them another half twist and it dried out. I never heard anything to signal them breaking. There was nothing left in the hole when I removed them.

Maybe they can't stand up to the ethanol

No ethanol here. Besides, the end is jagged where it is broken. The plugs weren't on the car more than 20 minutes either. Some guys leave them on there permanently.

I'll try again later this afternoon I guess. Hopefully I can get the rear bowl off without having to remove the carb - but I doubt it.

Troy

[terrible one]

Maybe they can't stand up to the ethanol

No ethanol here. Besides, the end is jagged where it is broken. The plugs weren't on the car more than 20 minutes either. Some guys leave them on there permanently.

I'll try again later this afternoon I guess. Hopefully I can get the rear bowl off without having to remove the carb - but I doubt it.

Troy

Luck you!

20 minutes and toast though! Scary. Makes it even more of a mystery though  

[charger Downunder]

Those fuel fitting on the carb are hard to get to i ground down a spanner on the grinder to make a home made tool.

[Troy]

Well, I got everything apart, I found a gooey glob of something in the front carb but nothing at all in the back carb.

Didn't need the new lines I ordered and some of the gaskets were incorrect so that was a waste of about $70 overall.

Troy

[b5blue]

Thanks for posting this.....I will NOT be using them now! 

[Paul G]

Those plugs are a real POS! I had a set that broke off in the hole as well. I was lucky enough to get the broken pieces out of the carb. The 3310 I had on my 73 had glass sight plugs in it. They stayed in all the time just like the brass plugs do.

[b5blue]

What lines did you get Troy? I may need some new ones and buy them off ya. P.M. me....

[mauve66]

i had the clear plugs on mine for about 4 years of driving and never had a problem
i do wish someone with skills would come up with a better substitute for those fuel lines thought..............

[ACUDANUT]

I had clear "view plugs" also. I tried to unscrew them and they broke off...I had to pull the carb, take it halfway apart and used alittle heat and they came out with no problem...Everything is made in China these days and it all sucks...All I had to do was buy new carb gaskets from O'reilly's and I was back in business.

[Rolling_Thunder]

i do wish someone with skills would come up with a better substitute for those fuel lines thought..............

Someone out there makes a pretty neat looking AN set up for six pack cars...   

[Al]

If I'm not mistaken, Holley recommends to use them only for the purpose of adjusting the fuel bowls i.e. only for a short time, apparently they are not meant for long time use.

[Troy]

Yeah, I had them in there for 20-30 minutes. I have seen where other people have left them in permanently.

Troy

[Budnicks]

Holley HP sells some (like $25 per pair)that have a brass/bronze shield for lack of a better word that surrounds them & has a glass site....At least they use to sell them, I got mine directly from Holley many years ago, I no longer have them or I would post a photo... it's not that tough to set the float  level with the hole open, then just put the brass/bronze plugs back in.... just keep a cup or rag under it untill your done then wipe up excess fuel... good luck.

[Budnicks]

Holley HP sells some (like $25 per pair)that have a brass/bronze shield for lack of a better word that surrounds them & has a glass site....At least they use to sell them, I got mine directly from Holley many years ago, I no longer have them or I would post a photo... it's not that tough to set the float  level with the hole open, then just put the brass/bronze plugs back in.... just keep a cup or rag under it untill your done then wipe up excess fuel... good luck.

[Troy]

Holley HP sells some (like $25 per pair)that have a brass/bronze shield for lack of a better word that surrounds them & has a glass site....At least they use to sell them, I got mine directly from Holley many years ago, I no longer have them or I would post a photo... it's not that tough to set the float  level with the hole open, then just put the brass/bronze plugs back in.... just keep a cup or rag under it untill your done then wipe up excess fuel... good luck.

That's what I've been doing. I had hoped the clear plugs would make the job easier but instead I just ended up with a bunch of problems. I'd be interested in the brass/glass ones if they're available but, for now, I'll leave everything alone.

Troy

[mauve66]

i do wish someone with skills would come up with a better substitute for those fuel lines thought..............

Someone out there makes a pretty neat looking AN set up for six pack cars...   

..........................................

[1969chargerrtse]

Help me here please.  I read the whole thread and have no idea what these glass or see through plugs are? 
Info and pics .   

[Troy]

Help me here please.  I read the whole thread and have no idea what these glass or see through plugs are? 
Info and pics .   

They replace the brass plugs on the side of the carb. Normally you remove the plug to see how high the fuel level is - basically the height of the float.
http://www.holley.com/26-113.asp

Troy

[Budnicks]

There are some at Summit Racing, search  "Holley fuel bowl sight plugs", They don't look the same as the old brass/bronze ones I used in the past, Holley # 26-112  $24.99 each "yep each" that's what is listed ,  caution; There is a note on the part "that is to be used with their aftermarket bowls" , but the "check applications"  shows they will work on most, 2300, 1450, 1460 & others so... "I don't know for sure on the app's" but they are metal with a glass sight in them & are for Holley fuel bowl sight plugs.....

[Troy]

According to this page at Holley:
http://www.holley.com/26-112.asp

Those only fit their aftermarket fuel bowls (which I found at Jegs)

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/34-37/10002/-1?CT=999&sendroicid=bbef8492-2d00-41d6-b158-38db0de2603c&sendroiad=1720130439&sendroikwd=Holley+34-37&gclid=CMb2uKekyqkCFQvKKgodW2UWMA

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/34-38/10002/-1?CT=999&sendroicid=bbef8492-2d00-41d6-b158-38db0de2603c&sendroiad=1720130439&sendroikwd=Holley+34-37&gclid=CMb2uKekyqkCFQvKKgodW2UWMA

However, they may also only be saying that to get you to purchase an $80 "kit". Those plugs are on Amazon for ~$18 each and qualify for free shipping.

Troy

[Budnicks]

Yep that's what I was thinking about the apps. It good to know there are cheaper ways to get them $75 for 3 sight plugs on a 6bbl/6pac set up is ridiculous, unless you have to have them, $18 each is a little better... I'm pretty sure the sight plugs are the same size on all of the Holley bowls, Do not know that for a fact though, seems many different things have been made, sense I had mine years ago... I was thinking the Dominator's had a larger sight plug, but I can't remember & don't have any lying around to check...

[Troy]

I'd only need 2 - the center bowl level is supposed to be just even with the hole. The tuning guides that I read for the Six Pack say the outboards should be about half way up to keep from starving the engine at full throttle. Measuring half way is a pain if you have the plug out completely! Those plugs may be "replacement parts" for the aftermarket bowls. I should cross-reference the plastic plugs to see if they fit the same bowls. I really doubt the sizes are different but you never know.

Troy

[charger Downunder]

I have had the Holley clear plugs in my car for three years now no problems. Maybe the fuel is different, i don't use fuel with ethanol or methanol.

[Troy]

Once again, the end (of the threaded portion) broke off on both of them. Other than that, I thought they were pretty great at helping to set the float level...

Troy

[70sixpkrt]

Troy did you fix the problem? Also raising the fuel level to half way up clear the other problem and what problem was that?

[b5blue]

I'm thinking of buying two extra brass plugs and drilling a small hole in the center to do the adjusting with....

[Troy]

Troy did you fix the problem? Also raising the fuel level to half way up clear the other problem and what problem was that?

Yes. I am not quite sure what the problem was - other than a combination of flaky electrical components, an exhaust leak, and improper settings on the timing and fuel.

However, on my car, I have determined that setting the outboard float levels to the middle of the window is a bad idea. I can't get it to idle right - but it would boil the tires at just about any RPM in the first three gears. In all the tutorials I read it stated that you need control of the idle on the center carb before anything else will work right and mine wouldn't "clear up" until I turned the float levels down (basically to where the factory set them). I went back again to review the one that said to set them midway and it is geared more for max performance. It probably works great when blasting down the track with a big cam and headers (to keep it from momentarily running lean) - not so much on my stock engine cruising down the back roads. Currently my outboards will "weep" steadily if I pull the plugs but not pour gas all over everything. I have not touched the outboard idle screws. I now seem to have a new problem which feels a lot like gunk in one of the carbs (stumble on "tip in" while on the highway). I never did find what was left of the sight plugs so maybe it's been hidden somewhere and I'll forever have an intermittent stumble...

So, in short, remember to keep checking for adjustability of the center carb idle screws while messing with the outboard float levels. The outboards are active on the idle circuit and it's easy to flood things. It's pointless to tune the carbs if there are other problems because you need the right vacuum signal and a strong spark first.

Troy

[b5blue]

Troy I can relate to what your saying as I've followed a similar path of chasing gremlins. You may have sucked a chunk of that clear plug up in your metering block. My engine just loves having vacuum advance working and the transition out of vacuum into centrifugal is so tricky I left it to FBO to set.   

[Troy]

So here we go again... I have no idea if this is the same problem or a new problem. I upgraded the ignition over the winter and now the car won't start - no gas. I removed the sight plugs and all 3 carbs are empty. I've cranked and cranked but there's no fuel. Yes, there's gas - I park the cars for the winter with full tanks. I pulled the fuel pump and only a tiny bit even leaked out. The fuel pump rod is slightly over 3 1/4" and not mushroomed. The pump is stock looking (ie not an after market or incorrect replacement) and feels tight. I never had a chance to do a pressure test and I only read about doing a vacuum test after I had it off. Whoops! Some of the hoses look kind of old but none have cracks or look like they are leaking. It didn't seem like any had collapsed. I removed the filler cap and didn't notice any pressure/vacuum.

I have read that the newer gas has a habit of evaporating out of the system and, sometimes, the pump doesn't draw enough vacuum (under cranking?) to pull fuel all the way from the tank without being primed. It seems like the common fix is to use an auxiliary electric pump for priming (and possibly WOT passes). If the pump doesn't have enough suction could it be contributing to my backfiring problem as well?

I had also been told that the distributor could be at fault. There's no vacuum advance so the theory was that the mechanical weights could stick and #5 and #7 were cross firing at high RPM. I pulled that apart and didn't find any binding or see any tracking in the cap.

Troy

[b5blue]

  Troy I let my car sit for about 5-6 mo. early last year while I farted around with my six-pack rebuild. My less than 18 mo. old Carter M4845 quit on me. From experience the first thing I recommend is siphon fuel right to the pumps input (Anyway you want, I have a suction gun about the size of a grease gun from Harbor Freight that works great.) and undo any of the pumps outputs. Attach a rubber hose and run it to a can or jar and crank it over. You should get plenty of fuel surging in less than 30 seconds. If you don't replace the pump.
  I farted around, certain the pump must be good for 2 weekends trying Quick-Start and slopping fuel thinking the system lost prime or something. Popping and gasping, revving up and dieing on me, recharging the battery and pulling my hair out only to find it was just the pump!  Lesson learned, now I keep a brand new M4845 in stock at all times! (Because I've found sometimes when you need one everyone's out of them!)

[Troy]

Thanks, I'll have to reinstall it to test though. I'll put it back together this week and run some test. I may get another pump ordered just to have a spare (in case this one isn't bad). It's been 80 and sunny for the last few days and it irks me that I can't get the car more than a couple miles from the house without something acting up.

Troy

[b5blue]

I run the car every week now come hell or high water!     (It's good for my head anyway...)

[Paul G]

Last time I had the Holley apart I could not get enough fuel flow out of the pump to fill the bowls just by cranking. I am using a mechanical fuel pump. I filled the float bowls by pouring gas in through the vent, and spilled a little down the the throat of the carb as well. The engine started right up, ran at fast idle for a minutes. Long and fast enough for the pump to start pumping fuel on it's own. No more problems. I don't know if your center carb has a bowl vent you can pour gas in through or not? Worth a try? 

[BrianShaughnessy]

I tried those clear sight plugs for a short while...   same results.   Back to brass.   

Stock six pack fuel lines,  well,   they're good the first time around.   Any more than once and you got 50/50 shot at leaks.    My 4782/3 setup was worse since I had to make the lines myself.   

A fuel log with nipples for rubber up to the carb makes it easy to work on them.    Or the aforementioned AN setup  Six Pack Performance      I can't remember now but their trailer / booth is next to MA at the Nats.  Same place that makes the metering plates.

[Troy]

Last time I had the Holley apart I could not get enough fuel flow out of the pump to fill the bowls just by cranking. I am using a mechanical fuel pump. I filled the float bowls by pouring gas in through the vent, and spilled a little down the the throat of the carb as well. The engine started right up, ran at fast idle for a minutes. Long and fast enough for the pump to start pumping fuel on it's own. No more problems. I don't know if your center carb has a bowl vent you can pour gas in through or not? Worth a try? 

Yes, but that seems hokey to me to have to manually prime the car every time it sits for a while. Also, wondering if the "weak" pump is causing my lean condition at high RPM.

A fuel log with nipples for rubber up to the carb makes it easy to work on them.    Or the aforementioned AN setup  Six Pack Performance      I can't remember now but their trailer / booth is next to MA at the Nats.  Same place that makes the metering plates.

ProMax? They're in Indy and I've purchased some things from them before.

Troy

[b5blue]

 Possibly "Quick Fuel" for fittings.
  I made a testing fixture out of my crappy fitting "Right Stuff" supplied carb feed lines. A short pipe out of each carb fed from the splitter 3 way with rubber fuel line between. I can take a pic for you if you want Troy. 

[Chryco Psycho]

Did you solve this ?
I split the fuel lines down @ the Tee block & leave the lines along up at the bowl , remove the rear carb forst , then the middle & front last , if you split the lines at the rear tee the lines can be left on the carbs while removing them

[Budnicks]

Troy: Promax Carbs sells a great #6 AN/3/8"hose & fittings assembled carb lines for $150 & the lower kit to the pump for $75

[Troy]

At this point my lines are fine - they're just holding air. Maybe I should have started a new thread?

Troy

[Budnicks]

At this point my lines are fine - they're just holding air. Maybe I should have started a new thread?

Troy

[Troy]

Ok, so I yanked the fuel pump off my other 440 (sitting on a stand in the garage). I purchased that engine with only a few miles on it from someone who wanted to build a stroker for their race car. It had a Six Pack setup on it and ran really well so I figured that pump should have no problem feeding mine. The first thing I noticed is that the outlet (to the vapor separator/carbs) was at a slightly different angle. The second thing was that the inlet was 3/8" and not 5/16" like the pump that was on it. Luckily, all the lines were upgraded to 3/8" so it fit fine. After I got it all installed it still wouldn't pull fuel from the tank - although everything from the pump on was bone dry at that point. I dumped some fuel in the center carb and it fired (and stayed running) on the second try. I took it out for a short trip and there's no hesitation or popping at all with my foot to the floor. Yay! So now it runs like I assume it's supposed to. It could probably still use some fine tuning but I'm now gun shy about touching anything that seems to be working fine.

Troy

[b5blue]

  Just drive for awhile!