C-Body spindles-A-BodyLCA's-Viper calipers-adjustable strut rods, Hotchkis parts

[Brads70]

This was taken from my post on Cuda-Challenger.com.
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

I thought I'd post the highlights as some B-body's share the same front end as the E-Body. It could all easily be applied to other years too! Enjoy....

I'm going to modify C-Body spindles to fit on my 1970 Challenger and the stock lower E-Body ball joint. (As some years of B-Bodies share the same front end I thought I'd share.)  Why, your asking? The C-body uses a thicker rotor that matches perfectly to what the Viper caliper was designed for( so I don't need to install spacers behind the pads), and I can't stand how horribly the car handles now! My 2005 Suburban out handles and out brakes my beloved Challenger , and that just WON'T do!  I'm wanting my upper control arm ball joint to be 3/4" above the innear pivot points for the ride height I have chosen.To lower the roll centers which should make the car handle better( along with a few other improvements I'll be making). Now my upper control arms are level which in my opinion makes the front roll center to high. I'll be using Hotchkis upper control arms, front and rear sway bars and Bilstein RCD shocks.
The years for the spindles to use are either 1974-1978 or 1973 which is a one year only deal. Both of these spindles can be made to work by slightly slotting the lower ball joint mounting holes on a milling machine. I have both spindles to chose from. I'm going to use the 1973 spindle because it uses the same  upper ball joint as the e-body and is slightly taller. The 74-78 spindle uses a bigger upper ball joint .
Both C-Body spindles have the pin raised 5/8" which lowers/drops the car 5/8" as compared to the E-Body spindle.
Here is a picture of a 73 E-Body spindle and a 73 C-Body spindle, note the C-Body is taller. The 73 E-Body spindle has the caliper bracket for the "big rotor" set up. I'm going to make a mount to use the Viper calipers on the
C-Body spindle..

[Brads70]

The KPI on the e-body spindle I measured at 5 degrees, on the C-Body I measured it at 7.5 Degrees. To measure it I mounted the spindle pin in the lathe and then used a precision bevel protractor and measured the machined flat surface on the top of the spindle.
I used A-Body lower control arm as they are  3/16" longer . This makes up for the difference in KPI between the spindles.

I got grease-able LCA pins and poly bushings from firm feel. Thought someone might like to see a picture of them? I machined a grease groove 360 degrees so the grease gets into all the "splines" of the bushing. I installed them into the A-Body LCA's  I made my own adjustable strut rods too.

[Brads70]

Without the sway bar attached I can get 9" of travel, bump stop to bump stop. ( I don't think I'll ever be into the stops for the upper control arms.) More than enough! I wonder what stock is?
The adjustable strut rods sure work sweet! I adjusted them till the bushing sat square on the pin then locked them in position. Moves up and down real nice! I had to clear the Hotchkis front pivot as the upper hit when I lifted it up to hit the bump stops. I doubt the stock E-Body spindle would have this issue, but I'd check it anyhow? I adjusted it so I have both positive and negative camber  I don't think you could do this with stock or non-adjustable uppers. Also I don't think you could run the A-Body LCA's without an adjustable rod end strut rod either? The hole for the strut rod is 3/8" out farther than and E-Body LCA along with being 3/16" longer. Now that I have the drives side all figured out and installed, I'll move over to the other side.




I had to get a new adapter for my caster camber gauge as mine had a magnetic adapter for rotors. FYI a Ford Pinto shares the same spindle thread as a Mopar 3/4-16"
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=138&catid=5


I still have to set the car at the right ride height to start setting up caster camber.




Another bit of info is with A-Body LCA's . I noticed when trying the caster/camber gauge out that the spindle didn't have the same turning radius as the E-Body ( B-Body too I would guess?) When I took a closer look to figure out why I discovered the difference is in the LCA not the ball joint as both A-Body and E-Body use the same lower ball joint. This picture is of a drivers side E-Body LCA ( dirty one) and a passenger side A-Body LCA. Notice the area where the ball joint/steering arm stop contacts the LCA. The A-Body LCA sticks up about 7/16" as compared to the E-Body LCA. Also notice that the strut rod and shock is in a slightly different position. Something to watch out for at a swap meet with a bunch of LCA's in a pile.
I'm going to machine down the stop on the ball joint 7/16" as I already have the LCA all painted.

[Brads70]

I mocked up a wheel ,spindle,C-Body rotor,and Viper brake caliper to get an idea of how I'll mate the caliper to the spindle. I think I have it all figured out. Viper caliper is going to be tight but doable. Gonna swap the spindles left to right to mount the calipers.

I made my own caliper adapters

[Brads70]

  They fit! Viper Calipers on a 15" rim ARE a tight squeeze , but I figured that. Love it when a plan comes through!

[Brads70]

I have the car blocked up at ride height. I set the ball joint at 3/4" above in the piviot points on the chassis ( took an average of the 2 heights , front is still about 3/8" higher than the rear even with the Hotchkis relocated arm.) Why 3/4? That's what I'm guessing the front end lifts when I get on the throttle while I'm driving. I don't want the ball joint going below center while " normal " driving. I set up a bump steer gauge of sorts, it's not the prettiest set up but it works. So with the stock tie rods the drivers side wheel when I go up on the wheel 3" toes out a total of .274"   and that's just one wheel so times 2 that .550" TOE OUT  in 3" of travel. I didn't bother going down! What's the use!   No wonder this think was like a dump truck going around corners!
To fix this I have on order this set up from Howe, should be here in a couple of days. I ordered a 11/16 housing instead of 5/8" Stock car racers just heat up and bend the steering arm to fix this but I'm not doing that for the street!  Unless I have no other way?
http://www.howeracing.com/p-7449-howe-quick-bump-tie-rod-ends.aspx


I just had time today to machine the ball joint ,assemble and try the bump steer gauge again. Just the way I threw it together got the bump steer down to .110"    I didn't have time to do any adjusting.  I'll have to weld on a threaded tube on the bottom of the steering arm to add some support as the folks at Howe suggested. I sure love the quality of Howe stuff! Moves like ball bearings!

[Brads70]

Well I'm all done.I FINALLY have all the parts now.
I found the best centerlink to use is the 66-70 B-body. It gave me at worst .056" of bumpsteer in 3" up upward wheel travel. When I started I had about 9/16"( .550") of bumpsteer with the C-Body spindles and A-Body LCA's! The e-body centerlink was not all that bad  so I wouldn't go to great lenghts to get a B-Body centerlink if your wanting to clone my set up. I ended up using 11/16 Howe tie rods with the 5/8" threaded stud for adjustments. I had to weld suports/gussets to the lower ball joints. I had a certified welder do this. I made the parts and he welded them on for me. Here are a few pictures of parts used. I hope to get this all final assembled this weekend and I'll get some better pictures then. I'm dying to get this on the road and see how it handles!

[Brads70]

Been wrenching all evening and I'm almost finished!    I have tomorrow off ( 4 day weekend!)
Just have to bleed the front calipers and weld in the rear sway bar mounts, set the toe, and she is on the road. Weather man is calling for nice weather for the next couple of days too! 
I had to machine down the caliper banjo bolts .120" in length to work with the Viper calipers. Custom brake lines worked good! I'm using 1/2" wheel spacers to get some clearance between the tie rod and the tire and it widens the front track too! I had to use Moroso longer wheel studs

[Brads70]

Thanks guys! It's been a fun project! Kept my mind busy! 
Parts I used....
A-BODY lower control arms, 3/16" longer than E-Body
1973 C-Body spindles - 2-3 degs more KPI than E-body 5/8" spindle drop, 5/8" taller than E-Body
1973 C-Body drilled /slotted rotors 1 1/4" thick, fits the Viper calipers with no pad shims!
Howe "quick bump" outter tie rods - I used 11/16" housings
Viper Calipers with custom flex lines-EBC yellow pads
custom caliper bracket- I made
custom adjustable strut rods , I made my own
Hotchkis upper control arms, sway bars front and rear, RCD Bilstein shocks
Firm feel fast ratio pitman and idler arms
Firm feel greasable LCA pins and poly bushings
66-70 B-Body center link
1" torsion bars. I'd like to try bigger ones in the future 1.060 maybe?

Thanks to Hotchkis, Howe and Firm feel for the aftermarket suport! They all make fantastic products!

[Brads70]

I've been out with the car all day and wow am I impressed! I love the fast ratio steering! Corners I always had to brake for now I accelerate WITH AUTHORITY! WOW! It's like a new car! I'm still a little shy with the brakes as EBC says to use caution the first 200 urban miles until the brakes are bedded in. The brake noise is annoying but EBC says thats normal during the bedding in cycle also. NO BRAKE FADE NOW! 
The ride quality is improved as well, the shocks do a nice job! I haven't found the limits of cornering yet can't say if the car pushes or is loose when pushed to it's limits. I took it to the stock car track I work at tonight and it has a few great twisty roads along the way and were I always had to brake , I accelerated pretty hard through them! No tire rubs so far and I still have to set the toe better yet. I just eyeballed it for now as I was in a hurry to drive it. Caster is 3 degree's and camber is about 5/8 of a degree.
All in all..... money well spent, now I REALLY enjoy driving this car! It will never handle like say a Viper but it is a HUGE improvement to what it was!

[Brads70]

Also a picture of my garage just to inspire those who don't have a lot of space to work in!

[elacruze]

 

Wow.

Will you be producing those caliper brackets? 

[WHITE AND RED 69]

    That is one sweet setup you got there. Very nice work. Those brakes are just what I need for my car.   

[Brads70]

Wow.

Will you be producing those caliper brackets? 

I thought about it but the hours it taked to machine them..... tough to make it worth while?

[Brads70]

   That is one sweet setup you got there. Very nice work. Those brakes are just what I need for my car.   

Thanks!    It's the improved handling I really love!

[dangina]

I feel your pain in the amount of space you have! I'm in the same boat...

[69rtse4spd]

Nice job & thanks for sharing, machinist or tool & die maker, nice ride also. You could have them done on a C.N.C. mill or water jet cutter.  .

[Brads70]

Nice job & thanks for sharing, machinist or tool & die maker, nice ride also. You could have them done on a C.N.C. mill or water jet cutter.  .

Thanks! I'm a mold. maker by trade. Ya I wish I had access to a CNC mill. I made drawings so I could get a quote to see how much to get them milled up? I made them out of a solid block so water jet wouldn't work ,it would have to be a CNC mill.
Question is how much call would there be for this set up? One year ( 1973) only spindle and all? Spindle takes some digging to come up with I'm thinking?

[FLG]

Wow nice! Id take one



Mancini sells the adapter as well.

[HPP]

Not this one. They do have the ARE adapters to put Viper calipers on B body drum spindles for 11.75 rotors or disc spindles with 13" rotors. The C body spindle caliper adapter bolt pattern is different than B, late A, or E body spindles that the ARE kit is designed for, plus, the 11.75 rotor is only 1" thick, whereas the C body rotor is 1.25, so the in/out relationship of the caliper needs to be accurate to the rotor centerline as well. This one is custom all the way.

[69rtse4spd]

I am a tool & die maker myself, had a quote done on getting the threaded caps for the 70 hood mounted turn signals made. Just made them myself, one at a time, 100% quality control, each one gets checked. You are right, tough call on making them, what with all the conversion kits out now. Still very nice job. .