driving tax

[Patronus]

Whatcha all think of this:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/18/news/economy/gas_tax_drivers/?hpt=P1&iref=NS1

[terrible one]

Big Brother is watching . . . 

[PocketThunder]

Ummm no thanks.

[royt440]

If they replaced the tax on gasoline, all those people who bought gas efficient vehicles would be screaming.  Of course, the government never replaces one tax with another, so we would all pay more.
I know they would love to have some way to monitor where your car is at all times (and thus where you are?).
They can probably already monitor newer vehicles that have all those electronics options.
Next, they could mandate that all vehicles are equipped with such devices.

<tin foil hat back on>
<rant off>

[ChgrSteve67]

They never stop trying to create new ways to take you money away from you.
And don't think your just paying the raod tax for your driving..... everything you buy get put on a truck so your goig to pay the road tax for that too.

Also three axle trucks can carry more than a two axle truck so if you think road tax on three axle trucks are going to be less I have a bridge in death valley for sale.

[DC_1]

Once again a brilliant idea to hurt the little guy. Think about it, who uses the roads most? I would say those required to drive for business related travel(so they will pass on the added cost) and those having to commute to and from work. Many who commute don't do it because they like to drive, they do so because they cannot afford to live closer to their place of employment. So if this came to pass it would once again hurt those who can least afford it. Then there are those who just happen to live in more rural areas that don't have adequate public transit or the vastness of their area makes driving a basic necessity. Again, not the demopgraphic with large amounts of extra money..... unlike lets say those who are getting big bonuses on Wall Street. Why don't they come up with schemes to tap into their wallets instead?!!

[Old Moparz]

Discussing it on a forum is fine, it brings attention to it, but it won't do much of anything substantial. You have to write to whoever was elected in your district & state, & it wouldn't hurt to send a copy to a local newspaper. I've done it when I had the time, & in some cases, mostly on a local level, it helped with whatever it was that I felt was wrong. Sometimes it falls on deaf ears, but at least you can say you made an attempt.

People are driving less now because of gas prices & will drive even less when the cost rises even more. Just like the tax on cigarettes that is higher than the price of cigarettes. The elected greedy ones saw a vice that they knew they could get a certain amount from, but probably didn't realize that a lot of people quit smoking when it got too expensive to smoke. They expected a particular sum of cash & got less, so they need to get it elsewhere.

I think another tax on anything sucks, especially one that hits me harder personally like a driving tax. Let them go tax soda, I don't drink it.  

[Troy]

I think everyone on the road needs to contribute to the maintenance of the roads (use tax if you will). Using the gas tax seemed like a good plan. However, it's flawed from the start because not every car gets the same mileage - or causes the same wear/damage to the road. While I think there is a probably a better solution, I don't necessarily agree with any sort of "tracking" to enforce the laws. Primarily because it opens the door to using the technology for a whole host of other questionable uses.

Putting my Conspiracy Hat on...

I saw a television show the other night about building cars and I swear they stated that every new car was mandated to have a GPS installed. I can't find any reference to a federal law with this requirement. However, it appears that all electric cars do have them. I read this article last week but convinced myself not to comment - but now I think it fits:

GM collected the fuel economy and fill-up data through the vehicles' OnStar system, spokesman Rob Peterson said.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/02/autos/volt_1000_miles/index.htm?hpt=T2

So, did GM get permission from the owners to track them and collect data? Or is there something about it in the Terms of Service that allows them to use the data in any way they deem necessary? With the government ownership of the company I'm not sure I'd want to trust them with that kind of power.

We're already saddled with OBD (On Board Diagnostics) which can "tell on" the driver/owner. We also have EDRs (Event Data Recorders) in most all new cars which can be used *against the owner* in lawsuits. The EDR is part of the same system as OBD. If you remember back a while, Al Gore was one of the big proponents of OBD but the final version of the system never made it to law (that'd be the part where they can track and partially control the vehicle). Well, OnStar gives that capability without a government mandate and people willingly give up their rights to get it.

If you think that's a big stretch and, surely, the government would take a good thing and turn it on the citizens then you need to look around.

Caught Spying on Student, FBI Demands GPS Tracker Back

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/10/fbi-tracking-device/
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps/

The Obama administration is urging the Supreme Court to allow the government, without a court warrant, to affix GPS devices on suspects' vehicles to track their every move.

The Justice Department, saying "a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy in his movements from one place to another," is demanding the justices undo a lower court decision...

Three other circuit courts of appeal have already said the authorities do not need a warrant for GPS vehicle tracking.

Ok, so if you can't attach one to a car would it be ok to use a GPS the citizen (er, suspect) already consented to? Fiddle with some legal text that people never read to begin with and all these messy surveillance problems are solved! Now you've got the time, location, and speed of just about anyone. Add this to the vehicle's other systems and you've also got their Bluetooth connections (phone calls), emissions history, driving habits, and even favorite radio stations.

But enough about that, back to the subject at hand:

Oregon just finished testing a year-long "virtual tollway" and will probably be the first state to have a GPS car tracking system working.

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/09/25/how-hybrids-create-an-orwellian-state/

Troy

[rollingthunder]

how about this....

here is the real question.

A Gallon a Day Per Person
Americans used about 378 million gallons per day of gasoline in 2009. With about 305 million people in the United States, that equals more than a gallon of gasoline every day for each man, woman, and child. The United States does not produce enough crude oil to make all of the gasoline used by U.S. motorists. Only about 34% of the crude oil used by U.S. refineries is produced in the United States. The rest is imported from other countries.  From the  EPA  web site.

378 million G.P.D.  whats the gas tax at 25cents or so a gallon.[to lazy to look it up] So where is all that money going  to is what we should ask them?

[PocketThunder]

how about this....

here is the real question.

A Gallon a Day Per Person
Americans used about 378 million gallons per day of gasoline in 2009. With about 305 million people in the United States, that equals more than a gallon of gasoline every day for each man, woman, and child. The United States does not produce enough crude oil to make all of the gasoline used by U.S. motorists. Only about 34% of the crude oil used by U.S. refineries is produced in the United States. The rest is imported from other countries.  From the  EPA  web site.

378 million G.P.D.  whats the gas tax at 25cents or so a gallon.[to lazy to look it up] So where is all that money going  to is what we should ask them?

Where does all the money from the gas tax go?  To buy votes my friend!!!! 

[Troy]

The federal gas tax (~19 cents per gallon) is supposed to go straight to the highway fund. No matter, it's still not enough to keep our highways in good shape (if you believe the politicians). The individual state taxes likely go to the General Fund but I don't know for sure in all instances.

I don't know if this list is accurate but it shows the tax per state:
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

So, yeah, the oil companies make about 6 cents per gallon in profit (and everyone complains about it) yet the feds make 3x that much. Ohio (where I live) gets 4x that amount - which seems to be about the average. Not a bad deal for doing practically nothing!

Troy

[Old Moparz]

So the less you drive, the less gas you end up using & buying. The result is that less tax from gas is actually collected. Sounds like there's a need to raise money through taxes on the cars on websites like this one. It can be based on the potential use of gas by forum member's cars. If someone has a 440 with a bigger cam & they can only get 8 MPG then they have to pay according to the 8 MPG & the bandwidth they use. It can be tracked through the ISP & billed accordingly.

[kab69440]

So the less you drive, the less gas you end up using & buying. The result is that less tax from gas is actually collected. Sounds like there's a need to raise money through taxes on the cars on websites like this one. It can be based on the potential use of gas by forum member's cars. If someone has a 440 with a bigger cam & they can only get 8 MPG then they have to pay according to the 8 MPG & the bandwidth they use. It can be tracked through the ISP & billed accordingly.

STOP.
GIVING.
THEM.
IDEAS!!!!!!

[ChgrSteve67]

And a walking tax
and a bicycle tax
And a scooter tax
and a wheel chair tax
and a motorcycle tax
and a baby stroller tax
and a skate board tax
and a in line skate tax
and a go cart tax
and a RV tax
and a old car tax
and a off road tax
and a breathing in air tax
and a exhale tax
Where does it end.

If you give them an inch they will take a mile. Literally.

[FlatbackFanatic]

What a bunch of sh**! I move out of town to get away from the crime that was getting closer, and NOW they want to tax my miles??
Time to call your local politications and tell them HELL NO!!!!

[twodko]

It is my opinion that the best solution here would be for these civil cretins to drive that tax right up their collective asses! Just sayin'.

[ITSA426]

I don't think an econobox like a Prius does the same amount of wear to the roads per mile that an 80,000 lb tractor trailer rig does.  It doesn't seem reasonable to tax them at the same rate per mile.  But then reason has so little to do with it.

[Mike DC]

   
Why go through the trouble of taxing gasoline usage, when they could just reduce some of the numerous ways that they subsidize gasoline right now? 


Oh wait, that's the whole point.  Subsidize something and tax it at the same time.  Indirectly force the public to spend more of their money on a corporate product. 

 

[ChgrSteve67]

So here is an interesting question...

If I'm getting charged by the miles I drive should the funds I pay not go for the roads I'm driving on?
How are they going to know where I drive without collecting that information. Unless the tax money just goes into a general fund and distributed as the state sees fit.  I can see more of my tax money going to pay people to sit on there ass, track my driving habits and count my money instead of fixing the damn roads.

CA already has 300,000 state bureaucrats that are under worked and over paid.

We keep passing laws to stop our gas tax money from being misused and they keep trying to find new ways get around those laws.

[RallyeMike]

Bring it on. Good luck with enforcement on any vehicle that isnt new. Keep a simple fuel tax.

[Patronus]

I dont know brothers, but I do know that we need to get off oil, How..  I dont know. But someday I figure we'll have audio of a '69 Charger to play when we drive silent.

[troutstreamnm]

It's going to take decades (at best) to transition into alternative energies and we will NEVER be completely off oil.  I don't have a problem with moving towards alternative energies, but we can't destroy our economy to get there quickly.  These taxes are politically motivated means to force the issue...which is where I tend to push back.  Let improved technologies evolve to make alternative energies cost effective to replace oil (where possible)...don't try to force the issue with taxes. 

[Mike DC]

            

I don't have a problem with moving towards alternative energies, but we can't destroy our economy to get there quickly.  

Realistically,there is no "safe" speed to implement those kinds of changes.  At least not in the eyes of the American public.  There hasn't been a time in the last 2 generations when people weren't griping about how gasoline was priced too high and hurting growth.  High prices, low prices . . . doesn't matter.   A decade ago gasoline was down to about $1.50 in 2010 dollars, and all anyone did at the time was bitch about how it was still too much.  


Having said that, I'm no more in favor of new gas taxes than anyone else here.  We need to just start cutting down the indirect subsidies.  

[ksquared]

As a guy with two Prius (OK, I'll wait a minute while the howls and hoots diminish   ), this is something I've been following for many years.  I call them the Odometer Police.  And it really is just another way to tax people.  Just like the red light cameras are set up for "safety."

My Prius has another 5kw battery added to it, and I'm getting 150 mpg, with another ≈ 250 watts/mile in electricity.  So it can be done with some effort.  I also have the 4.7kw PV solar generating electricity.  The environmental benefit was definitely a consideration, but this is also for our individual energy independence.  

As a side note, it has been alleged that CARB eliminated their electric vehicle mandate over a decade ago because they were afraid of the lost gas tax revenue.  And, along with the Cobasys/Chevron patent fiasco, the U.S. has squandered their lead over the world as far as electric vehicle and battery technology goes.

A true usage tax though must also be based in part on weight, since a mile in the Prius isn't the same as a mile in a diesel F350.  And the logistics quickly fail because people will then disconnect the odometer and it will require a massive government program to monitor.  The current annual vehicle registration fees are also somewhat unfair to the people with antique / muscle cars / show cars because you still must pay whether you drive it 1 mile or 100,000 miles/year.  But it is not enough to warrant changing the tax system, because the guy driving 100,000 miles makes up for it in gasoline tax.  So really the gasoline tax should be raised, which would also have the side benefit of encouraging conservation.  And the annual vehicle registration fees should be reduced.

And a GPS in every car?  That isn't going to quickly be accepted by people either, although they continue to give up more and more of their rights.  It is interesting that Troy quoted a posting that has apparently been removed from this thread?  But, here is a link if you want to read about it: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/gps/  Oh, FYI, it is already possible for you to be tracked if you carry a cell phone with you.

So hopefully as a new guy here this isn't too political, but this topic is definitely something worth thinking about.

[troutstreamnm]

150 mpg???