Oil Selection is 20W-50 to much??

[baullz]

I've been searching the forums for a good hour now on oil selections as I will be doing the first oil change on my stock rebuild 440 soon. 

I have heard great things about Valvoline VR1 but am just wondering if their 20w-50 is to thick for where I live up here in North Dakota where even in the summer it will get down to the 30's and then towards the end of the season a below zero temp is not uncommon.

So would I be better off with the Valvoline VR1 10w-30 or should I just find another oil and use an additive for the extra zinc and go with a 10w-40??

Thanks

[A383Wing]

I would stay with 10-30.....especially with new rebuild....to thick of oil will cause heat in bearings....something you don't need

[terrible one]

Another vote here for 10W30 VR1. That's what I'm running in my fresh 383. For some reason EVERY store seems to only stock the 20w50 VR1. I've never seen the 10W30 on the shelves, always have to order a case.  

[resq302]

Ive always used 20w-50 and the engine builder who did the engine in our elky told us to use 20w-50 VR1 in the engine after the break in.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I have been running the 20w-50 VR1 for the last 2 seasons with no troubles

[Charger-Bodie]

Tim @ FHO reccomended that I put in Amsoil 15-50 Hi perf Full synthetic after I hit the 200 mile mark. I have 20/50 Brad Penn in it for now.

[Dans 68]

Brad Penn 20-50W in my '68.

Dan

[flyinlow]

I think they sell alot to smallblock chevy guys trying to raise their oil pressure. I run it in my wife's fresh 350 in an el camino to keep the pressure up when the weather is hot. I should unhook the gauge and just run with the light.

[Al]

another vote for 20W 50 VR1

[ACUDANUT]

20W-50 is way too thick and took my engine's life  ...Now, if I lived in the desert and it was 120 degrees outside...I might use it....Everyone has their own opinions here. This includes different climates and road use..Do your research and place your bet's....

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

20W-50 is way too thick and took my engine's life  ...Now, if I lived in the desert and it was 120 degrees outside...I might use it....Everyone has their own opinions here. This includes different climates and road use..Do your research and place your bet's....

What are your findings to suggest that the weight of the oil was the culprit??

[skip68]

20-50 VR1 for me.

[elacruze]

Contrary to popular belief, engine oil viscosity should be chosen by ambient temperature, not by engine type or build level.
Whether in a stone-stock or full drag racing build, the bearing width and clearances are the same (to a meaningful degree).
Heavier viscosity oil is better at high RPM simply because it doesn't push out of overloaded bearings as easily.
If I was driving in cold temperatures, I would use a 5w30 synthetic like Royal Purple or Amsoil (preferably racing blend, with ZDDP) or Mobil 1 synthetic with ZDDP additive. I live in South Florida where it is never below 40 and rarely above 90, and I'm using Royal Purple 10w40 in my own.

[resq302]

If that is the case then why do 90% of newer cars want you to run 5w-20?  Granted, colder outside temps do thicken up the oil and reduce its viscosity but the temps that our cars run at are considerably higher than what todays cars run at also.  I, personally, would take my chance with the thicker oil and know that when it starts to run a little hot, the oil will still be thick enough to provide proper coating.  Just my  .

[ACUDANUT]

20W-50 is way too thick and took my engine's life  ...Now, if I lived in the desert and it was 120 degrees outside...I might use it....Everyone has their own opinions here. This includes different climates and road use..Do your research and place your bet's....

 
What are your findings to suggest that the weight of the oil was the culprit??

Machine shop told me this and is was very cold outside when the engine lost power. 

[elacruze]

If that is the case then why do 90% of newer cars want you to run 5w-20?  Granted, colder outside temps do thicken up the oil and reduce its viscosity but the temps that our cars run at are considerably higher than what todays cars run at also.  I, personally, would take my chance with the thicker oil and know that when it starts to run a little hot, the oil will still be thick enough to provide proper coating.  Just my  .

New cars use lightweight oil primarily for fuel economy.
What makes you think your old Mopar runs hotter than my 2000 Cavalier? Generally, the opposite is true.
Newer engines also have the advantage of better materials in the cylinder walls and pistons, wide cam lobes with light spring pressures, and tighter tolerances throughout due to computerized machining in production. This is why they can use non-ZDDP oils and still last 100k miles.

[FLG]

But why ambient temperature? Once the engine is hot ambient air temp dosnt really matter. Granted if you live where the temp can get severely cold maybe in the winter you should switch but besides that I don't see an issue.

[NorwayCharger]

If that is the case then why do 90% of newer cars want you to run 5w-20?  Granted, colder outside temps do thicken up the oil and reduce its viscosity but the temps that our cars run at are considerably higher than what todays cars run at also.  I, personally, would take my chance with the thicker oil and know that when it starts to run a little hot, the oil will still be thick enough to provide proper coating.  Just my  .

New cars use lightweight oil primarily for fuel economy.
What makes you think your old Mopar runs hotter than my 2000 Cavalier? Generally, the opposite is true.
Newer engines also have the advantage of better materials in the cylinder walls and pistons, wide cam lobes with light spring pressures, and tighter tolerances throughout due to computerized machining in production. This is why they can use non-ZDDP oils and still last 100k miles.

[elacruze]

But why ambient temperature? Once the engine is hot ambient air temp dosnt really matter. Granted if you live where the temp can get severely cold maybe in the winter you should switch but besides that I don't see an issue.

Ambient because 99% of engine wear occurs at startup. Thin oil gets through the pump and where it needs to be much more easily than thicker oil.
After the engine is at full operating temperature, the viscosity matters little except under extreme conditions, such as very high RPM and/or high spring pressures. Even engine temperature makes little difference; the viscosity index is no indicator of how well the oil tolerates temperature breakdown. If your crankshaft side clearances are good, -30 or -50 won't make any difference. You could experience some valve clatter if your spring pressures are very high and your lifters bleed quickly, but it's unlikely that the viscosity of the oil would cause this line to be crossed.

[resq302]

If that is the case then why do 90% of newer cars want you to run 5w-20?  Granted, colder outside temps do thicken up the oil and reduce its viscosity but the temps that our cars run at are considerably higher than what todays cars run at also.  I, personally, would take my chance with the thicker oil and know that when it starts to run a little hot, the oil will still be thick enough to provide proper coating.  Just my  .

New cars use lightweight oil primarily for fuel economy.
What makes you think your old Mopar runs hotter than my 2000 Cavalier? Generally, the opposite is true.
Newer engines also have the advantage of better materials in the cylinder walls and pistons, wide cam lobes with light spring pressures, and tighter tolerances throughout due to computerized machining in production. This is why they can use non-ZDDP oils and still last 100k miles.

From what I know, the reason why ZDDP is not needed in newer engines is because of the roller lifters and lack of flat tappet cams in newer cars.  I do agree that todays engines are built with better materials such as moly rings and such like that.

Regarding the oil viscosity and the newer cars using 5w-20 for fuel economy, you basically contradicted yourself by a few posts earlier you said "Contrary to popular belief, engine oil viscosity should be chosen by ambient temperature, not by engine type or build level. "  So, by your reasoning, car manufacturers should use different oils for different locations of the world.  Now, if I were driving or starting my charger up in the dead of winter, I would either put a heating pad on the oil pan to warm up and thin out the oil prior to starting or use a lighter weight oil.  However, I keep my car in a climate controlled garage now and the latest in the year it sees any time on the road is MAYBE early November with coming out of hibernation in mid to late April.

To add further confusion to this topic, one can debate the choice of synthetic vs. conventional oil.  There are pros and cons to both but it mainly comes down to personal preference.   

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

20W-50 is way too thick and took my engine's life  ...Now, if I lived in the desert and it was 120 degrees outside...I might use it....Everyone has their own opinions here. This includes different climates and road use..Do your research and place your bet's....

 
What are your findings to suggest that the weight of the oil was the culprit??

Machine shop told me this and is was very cold outside when the engine lost power. 

Well there you go....20w-50 is not for a cold climate/cold start

I, like Brian rarely (actually never) start my engine when the temps dip below 55º

Also FWIW my new Hondas use 0w-20....stuff is like ice cold beer thickness.  Clearances on critical engine parts are tighter than ever now a days....using a thicker oil will starve these parts

[elacruze]

If that is the case then why do 90% of newer cars want you to run 5w-20?  Granted, colder outside temps do thicken up the oil and reduce its viscosity but the temps that our cars run at are considerably higher than what todays cars run at also.  I, personally, would take my chance with the thicker oil and know that when it starts to run a little hot, the oil will still be thick enough to provide proper coating.  Just my  .

New cars use lightweight oil primarily for fuel economy.
What makes you think your old Mopar runs hotter than my 2000 Cavalier? Generally, the opposite is true.
Newer engines also have the advantage of better materials in the cylinder walls and pistons, wide cam lobes with light spring pressures, and tighter tolerances throughout due to computerized machining in production. This is why they can use non-ZDDP oils and still last 100k miles.

From what I know, the reason why ZDDP is not needed in newer engines is because of the roller lifters and lack of flat tappet cams in newer cars.  I do agree that todays engines are built with better materials such as moly rings and such like that.

Regarding the oil viscosity and the newer cars using 5w-20 for fuel economy, you basically contradicted yourself by a few posts earlier you said "Contrary to popular belief, engine oil viscosity should be chosen by ambient temperature, not by engine type or build level. "  So, by your reasoning, car manufacturers should use different oils for different locations of the world.  Now, if I were driving or starting my charger up in the dead of winter, I would either put a heating pad on the oil pan to warm up and thin out the oil prior to starting or use a lighter weight oil.  However, I keep my car in a climate controlled garage now and the latest in the year it sees any time on the road is MAYBE early November with coming out of hibernation in mid to late April.

To add further confusion to this topic, one can debate the choice of synthetic vs. conventional oil.  There are pros and cons to both but it mainly comes down to personal preference.   

I didn't contradict myself, you have a presupposition failure. AFAIK owners manuals still have oil recommendations for temperatures in them. Whether or not a manufacturer chooses to add to their expense by using more than one assembly line oil has nothing to do with what's best for the car, or the best way to choose an oil for your specific car and specific usage.
Secondly, the vast majority of engines on the road in newer cars are overhead cams, and do not have rollers. Only the arhaic V designs still have pushrods.

[firefighter3931]

I've allways used 20/50 but i like to run the bearing clearances (rods/mains) at .0025-.0030 to allow for thermal expansion under heavy load. 

The newer/modern engine designs run much tighter clearances so the oil needs to be of lower viscosity, especially at cold start-up 



Ron