headlight motor relay upgrade for 1970 & up

[71_deputy]

Here is a way of upgrading from the old headlight motor relay to a new style of relay.

here is a pic of the old relay-   pic #1
if you notice there is a circuit breaker attached to the relay- take it off- we need this one later- note- if the motor starts but cuts out- it may not be the relay- just the circuit breaker has a problem.

now when you take the wires off the old relay- they can be reused for the new one-carefully remove the terminal from the old connector

pic #2



next-- you just need a few parts-- Bosch relay- 30 amp contacts required, two eyelet terminals, two female spade terminals and some 14 gauge wire.

pic #3

next- bosch relay- 30 amp contacts or better--pic #4

[71_deputy]

next- assemble as seen  pic#5   use the eylets for the circuit breaker connections

parts pic # 6 is the layout of the wires

pic # 7 is one out of a 71 Charger- make sure when all done that all bare connections are insulated- we don't want a short anywhere do we!!!
Thanks Thread Marshal!!!

****  note*** the old relay setup had the ground connection via thur the light green wire thur the headlight bulbs for it ground- that one thru me for a loop until I opened the old relay to see where the neg. of the coil went- here is a pic of me scratching my head.

*****note**** if you do the headlight relay upgrade to the headlights off the alt. or battery to take the load off the old wiring- this upgrade has to be done!!!  Why???  because both relays are now in series and they will not both turn on!!!!

John Mac

[WhiteWithMight]

This is great thanks, i'll try it out.

[Plumcrazy]

A socket for the relay adds a nice finishing touch also.

[Arthu®]

Me and a friend did this upgrade on his car today and it works like a charm. Except that when I connected it, the black/red wire had to be connected to terminal 87A and the dark blue/yellow wire to terminal 87 instead of the other way around. Because when I connected it according to the diagram above the headlight doors would open when the lights were off and would close when you would turn them on. Great guide though and very easy. Thanks. Now we have to deal with the additional problems.

Arthur

[Plumcrazy]

Me and a friend did this upgrade on his car today and it works like a charm. Except that when I connected it, the black/red wire had to be connected to terminal 87A and the dark blue/yellow wire to terminal 87 instead of the other way around. Because when I connected it according to the diagram above the headlight doors would open when the lights were off and would close when you would turn them on.

Arthur

Those wires need to be reversed on that diagram.

[71440charger]

yea that post is wrong this is how it should be

#30 goes to the wire that gives power to the headlight switch
# 85 goes to the light green wire that gets power when the headlight switch is on
# 86 is grounded any where
#87 & 87a go to the motor you have to figure out which one get the power at certin times

i know this beacuse i just did this yesterday on my car

[71_deputy]

CORECTED DIAGRAM!!

[Nacho-RT74]

just to let you know guys, chargerspecialties is selling them new repros exactly to originals.

[AKcharger]

I did deputy's mod 2 years ago works great!!!   

Why to they always make new parts AFTER I piece somthing together??

[Nacho-RT74]

NEW REPLACEMENT

CSHDR headlamp cover relay

$69.95 ea

Available now !!

This is the relay that controls the concealed headlamp motors on 1970 & up Chargers ! It also works on all Plymouths and Chryslers up to 1979 with the electric headlamp cover motors.

Vacuum controls for 68 & 69 chargers coming soon!!

http://www.chargerspecialties.com/new_product.htm

[lakotakid]

Gentlemen, I have crawled underneath my RT/SE and a friend did the same on his SE Charger and the part does not look the same as the reproduction that Charger Specialities is reproducing. Do I need to purchase theirs and then still do some cross wiring? I thought that I could just purchase theirs and then just hook it up. Anybody have an ideas? Or am I just s l o w ?  lol.  Thanks a bunch,  Jerry

[71_deputy]

that relay will work but the plug-in connections are different.

[Rolling_Thunder]

another diagram....     in color   

[T16]

****  note*** the old relay setup had the ground connection via thur the light green wire thur the headlight bulbs for it ground- that one thru me for a loop until I opened the old relay to see where the neg. of the coil went- here is a pic of me scratching my head.

So current flows through the circuit breaker.. then trough the coil inside.. and towards ground via the green cable  Also scratched my head.. because if you measure you´ve got +12V  (wich is correct) on the green wire that acts as the groundwire

[Plumcrazy]

****  note*** the old relay setup had the ground connection via thur the light green wire thur the headlight bulbs for it ground- that one thru me for a loop until I opened the old relay to see where the neg. of the coil went- here is a pic of me scratching my head.

So current flows through the circuit breaker.. then trough the coil inside.. and towards ground via the green cable  Also scratched my head.. because if you measure you´ve got +12V  (wich is correct) on the green wire that acts as the groundwire

The power that flows through the circuit breaker enters the relay at pin #30.  It then leaves the relay through either pin #87 or 87a, depending on whether the headlights are turned on or not. It does not go through the coil in the relay.  The power at pin #86 that comes from the headlight switch is what turns the relay on by flowing through the coil in the relay. The green wire is not a ground wire.  Pin #85 supplies the ground for the relay coil.

[SanDiego70RTSE]

Where do I buy the socket and the relay?

Thanks,
Mat

[Gowinger]

Thanks for the great infor on the relay wiring! Just on question what the heck do you do when you have no old breaker relay to swipe the breaker from??? Is there a radio shack part that can be wired in?
I just got the grill in and think I have a line on the rod now its wiring!

[Plumcrazy]

Thanks for the great infor on the relay wiring! Just on question what the heck do you do when you have no old breaker relay to swipe the breaker from??? Is there a radio shack part that can be wired in?
I just got the grill in and think I have a line on the rod now its wiring!

Just use an inline fuse.  I've had a 20 amp in mine for about 30 years.

[Gowinger]

Thanks ! Guess it doesn't get simpler than that.

[BROCK]

Gentlemen, I have crawled underneath my RT/SE and a friend did the same on his SE Charger and the part does not look the same as the reproduction that Charger Specialities is reproducing. Do I need to purchase theirs and then still do some cross wiring? I thought that I could just purchase theirs and then just hook it up. Anybody have an ideas? Or am I just s l o w ?  lol.  Thanks a bunch,  Jerry

Hey Jerry, I just swapped the guts over into my old housing when I replaced mine.

[Gowinger]

OK, All wired up opens great but won't close :brickwall:Power to the motor with the lites off. Winds back by hand no prob.....Anyone have an idea??

[Plumcrazy]

OK, All wired up opens great but won't close :brickwall:Power to the motor with the lites off. Winds back by hand no prob.....Anyone have an idea??

The problem is in the motor.  In the gear housing there are two limit switches. When the headlight doors get to the open position the up switch opens to shut off the motor.  At that time the down limit switch is closed so that when you turn the headlights off and the power switches to the other motor feed wire the doors will close.  The down limit switch in your motor is not closed when the headlight doors are open. That's why the doors won't close.

To fix it remove the motor and put it in the middle of it's travel by lining up the notches on the plastic gear and the gear switch plate.  Then you can remove the screws that attach the switch plate to the housing.  Both switches should be closed.  You'll  probably have bend one of the contacts slightly to fix your problem

[Gowinger]

Me again, Spent a few hours takeing the motor apart and trying it now it goes up and down BUT afer a few minits it gets hot.. .it also has a missing tooth are there rebuild kits or ame I on another ebay search?
PS thanks for the help Plum!!!

[Plumcrazy]

Me again, Spent a few hours taking the motor apart and trying it now it goes up and down BUT after a few minits it gets hot.. .it also has a missing tooth are there rebuild kits or am I on another ebay search?
PS thanks for the help Plum!!!

Now you have the contacts a little too close together.  When the headlight doors get to the end of their travel, one of the switches needs to open and shut off power to the motor.  That's not happening, that's why the motor is getting hot.   Aren't those switches fun to adjust.

I've never seen any repair kits for those motors.  Don't give up on the junkyards, Chrysler used that same motor up to 1980.

[jlatessa]

Search for "Topher", he has the plastic gears as a kit, also rebuilds the whole schmear if you run out of patience.

Joe

[jascharger]

I found a couple of bosch relays on ebay but I don't know if they are the proper ones. Does this relay ,you guys have used,have a part number or code on it?
Any help as always,is greatly appreciated!

[73charger440]

Question I wired my haidaways up and they just go up and when the wires on the motor are reversed it powers the doors in the other direction. My question is do you need two relays one for up and one fore down?

[fizz]

no. the relay should have a normally open terminal and a normally closed terminal. So when you apply power from the switch to the relay it will power up one terminal on the relay. when you cut power from the switch it will power the first one down and power up the other. The switching on the motor cuts the power when the doors are in the full up position and the full down position.

[73charger440]

Mine don't seem to shut off just hummes when it gets to the end of its travel

[70sixpkrt]

If you are using a new wiring harness, they have the wires crossed. Just cut the harness at the clip and switch them around. I bought a new harness years ago and found that out the hard way. Topher sells new units. I bought one from him and works good.

[73charger440]

Yeah I don't have a harness at all but with five wires. I figured with 5 wires I could make my own

[73charger440]

It's a 73 so nothing I have will work

[__Larsson____]

I have done this conversion to my 70 Charger no but i get 12 in both wires to the motorn when the light switch is on. But nothing when its of. 

[AKcharger]

I have done this conversion to my 70 Charger no but i get 12 in both wires to the motorn when the light switch is on. But nothing when its of. 

That doesn't sound wrong

[Derwud]

Just going through this thread again.. Couple of things.

1) get you relay power from the wire that goes from the switch to the dimmer.
2) you should only have power to one side of the connector at the the motor at a time, if not, you have a wiring issue..

[b5blue]

  The 70 HL motor is grounded at the tang by the gearing housing and the dual plug is each 12+ for up and down. (The motor goes one way then reverses.) The switches inside set limit of travel and ready for reversal of action.
  Remember if you run the motor without being installed you may shear off plastic gears inside!

[71charger_fan]

Bumping back to top so I can find it easier when I get a chance to look at it on my computer instead of my phone.

[71charger_fan]

My motor opens the headlight doors, but they remain open when the switch is turned off. I think my relay has gone bad as I have current at the "open" connection at the motor whether the headlight switch is on or off. I had a spare relay, but it didn't test. So, I opened it up and any mystery as to why it didn't work instantly disappeared. Looking at how it's constructed, how does the signal from the green wire into the relay ground? Is it supposed to ground to the case? After I cleaned the rust out of the spare relay and filed the points, I hooked up a hot lead to where the green wire goes and grounded it directly at the top of the coil and the electromagnet works fine. However, it doesn't work with the case back on and hooked up. It's got to be a lack of ground for the signal, but I can't think of how this thing is supposed to ground unless the solder connection at the top of the coil is supposed to touch the outer case.

[b5blue]

Feedback loop through the lights?

[71charger_fan]

I thought about that, but wouldn't the signal current have to be isolated from the load current? I have a plastic case Bosch-style relay that I can swap in, but I'd prefer to have an original if I can make it work. I've considered the '65 Buick Riviera relay for those headlight doors, which are still available new (and cheap). However, I find the wiring diagram for that very confusing. I'll probably just wind up with the Bosch style and call it done.

[b5blue]

Ground isn't broken during switching. A "single throw dual pole relay" switches in an ether/or fashion as opposed to just off or on. I made one work from Radio Shack, it looked insane but worked. You are basically putting 12V+ to up or down (The 2 prong plug.) with ground on the tang attached to the gear head.   

[b5blue]

This will do the job, you just adapt your harness. https://www.opgi.com/riviera/L240177/   Click on the pic and look closely at the relay's side. It is a wire diagram to follow.

[71charger_fan]

I already have a 5-pin relay to put in. I'm still curious as to how the factory relay completes the circuit for the signal current when you turn the lights on since the the factory relay only has four terminals. The signal current comes in through the threaded stud to the thin wire that makes up the windings and seems to end at the soldered connection at the top of the coil. The load current comes in from the circuit breaker at the side of the relay and goes up the heavy frame next to the coil then across the "bridge" part above the coil, through the points and down one of the two legs and out either the "open" or "close" lug. If I ground the signal current at the solder connection it works perfectly, so the relay seems to work. The coil part rides on a plastic bed to electrically isolate it from the load current. When it's put together, it doesn't work. The case had heavy corrosion built up inside of it which I've sanded out. This is what makes me wonder if that solder joint originally grounded to the side of the case. That would allow the case itself to act as the fifth terminal and ground the signal circuit.

[71charger_fan]

I spent a few minutes looking at the '65 Buick wiring diagram. It was a little confusing at first as Buick used two relays. The auxiliary relay makes sure all power is cut to the motor when the key is off. But the headlamp door relay is still available for less than $10 from Rock Auto as Standard RY8. The wiring is almost identical to the '71 Charger relay. Switching at #4, main power at #1 and motor open/close at #2 and #3. According to the wiring diagram on the relay itself, the switching circuit grounds through the case. I'm going to order one of those and give it a try.

https://smile.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-RY8-Relay/dp/B000C7YD1I/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=ry8&qid=1566062061&s=gateway&sr=8-1

[b5blue]

Yup ether this or that terminal. 

[71charger_fan]

Today, I wasted a great deal of time getting the old rusty relay to work. I measured out where the solder connection on the coil was in relation to the outer case and tried knocking the case in at that spot to ground the signal circuit. That actually worked, but not consistently. Plus, if I knocked it a little too far, it would short the main power circuit going to the motor. So, I drilled a hole in the case and put in a #10-32 screw exactly where the solder joint is. I turned the screw in just far enough to exert a little pressure on the solder joint. That worked perfectly. But, as I had no faith in that being a viable long-term fix, I went ahead and (temporarily) wired in a Bosch-style relay just to get things working. I'll replace that with the Buick relay when that comes. Should be here Tuesday. Now, I have to figure out why my dome light never goes out.

[71charger_fan]

Here's the headlight door relay for the Buick. I rigged up some temporary wiring and it works like a charm. $12.27 for a Riviera relay and having to add/change a couple of terminals beats what I've seen for asking prices on NOS relays. You will need one oddball female terminal for the double wire on the ignition run circuit. Or, put a ring terminal on a jumper wire with a single Packard 56 female on the other end. Then bolt the existing ignition run terminal to the jumper ring terminal and tape it well. Plus, you'll want to cut off the ring terminal on the green signal wire from the HL switch and replace that with a female Packard 56 or just an insulated female .25 terminal.

The green signal/switching circuit grounds through the case.

[b5blue]

 

[71charger_fan]

Buick Riviera relay with proper Delphi/Aptiv connectors on the wires.

[ACUDANUT]

It's so nice just to pay someone to do electrical work.  I hate it.

[71charger_fan]

Installed behind the dash with the motor open/shut leads switched to their proper locations because, of course, I got it wrong the first time. I ran an extra ground lead just to be sure.

[71charger_fan]

My new circuit breakers arrived today direct from China. So, I removed my relay and bracket and figured out which of the two circuit breakers (same except for the mounting ears) would best fit. I selected one and drilled out one of the mounting holes to 1/4" so I could attach it to the same bolt I was using for the extra ground. Then, the circuit power just hooked up the same as factory.

[b5blue]

Well Done

[ACUDANUT]

Well Done

X2.

[71charger_fan]

A Delco C1700C relay would also work and, given that the mounting tab is oriented differently, it could be a better choice.

[b5blue]

Or bug Classic as for years they list re-pop relays as "coming soon"   

[igozumn]

So, what is the amp rating on the original circuit breaker?  I see 71charger_fan used a 5amp breaker. 

[71charger_fan]

I used 5 because my original was 5. I don't know if the rating changed over time, but my January '71-built car's original circuit breaker was 5 amp.

[igozumn]

Cool.  I haven't seen a pic of an original up close to be able to see what it was rated at.  Thanks!

[71charger_fan]

Here's an original.

[Kern Dog]