Need help with roller cam choice 431 stroker

[Hudson Hornet !]

Here is my combo  68 charger, 4-speed 383>431 Eddy Heads.  3.55 gears. I would like to go to a hydraulic roller cam for this engine. I am looking for the following:  Lots of power!  Decent Idle, Vacuum, etc. I am looking for a all around good choice.  Thanks to anyone who can help me out. Also, could anyone spec out a complete setup for me?  Springs pushrods rockers, etc?

[firefighter3931]

I'd look at the Comp 280 HR grind for your build : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-23-711-9/



Ron

[Hudson Hornet !]

Thank you Ron,

I am always behind the 8 ball when it comes to cam choice.  While I have your attention, I would like to ask you a question.  With a roller cam would I be better off getting a set of EZ heads or maybe Victors?  I would really like a free breathing setup, but I am afraid of too much cylinder head for the 431.  Also, which rocker arms do you like for roller motors?  Thanks for the help!

[firefighter3931]

Personally, I'd use the RPM heads on a build of that size (431-440ci) to keep the throttle response strong. Port velocity plays a big part in low end response & streetability. The larger intake port volume heads are better suited to street stroker type builds. 

As for rocker arms there are lots of choices. The Comp Cams Pro-Magnum rockers are a good option with Eddy RPM heads and under 400lbs open spring pressure. The geometry is an excellent match between these 2 components.


Ron

[Cooter]

Don't mean to tread on the thread here but......
Ron, I think I once read on here or maybe it was another forum about Roller cams, especially the solid lift variety having probllems on the street with the Roller lifter "Axles" wearing out due to high Valve Spring load...What is a person to do if he wants a solid roller on the street?

[Hudson Hornet !]

cooter, Good question. I would like to know that myself. Ron, Thank you for the help. This site would be at a loss without you

[firefighter3931]

What is a person to do if he wants a solid roller on the street?

Buy a set of these : http://www.iskycams.com/RedZoneAdLR.pdf

That's what i did      Yes they are expensive but so is a lifter failure so i consider it preventative medecine.  

There are some mild "street" solid roller grinds out there that don't require the big dollar roller lifters but there is still a maintenance schedule that needs to be followed. On a street car with a mild solid roller figure about 5k miles for a rebuild on the roller lifters (axle needle bearings) + a fresh set of Valvesprings and possibly the bronze oil pump drive gear.  

In contrast the hyd roller grinds are much milder and have much better longevity on the typical wear items. The hyd lifter will collapse under too much spring pressure so that tends to keep things in check. Spring pressures are softer so you don't need the high end rocker gear that solid rollers require and the valvetrain doesn't take the same beating as it would with the solid.

BTW, those Red Zone EZ-Roll lifters with the solid bushing axle are $1100.....they are the second most expensive component in my 572. The block is an MP/World Products megablock so it was $$$



Ron

[frederick]

 

For me it would be either the Isky Redzones or the Cam FX lifters.

IMHO compcams roller lifters are junk nowadays.


Here's a link to the CamFX lifters
http://www.noonanraceengineering.com.au/_products.php?g_SubcategoryID=8

Some threads about them.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25567
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133025
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5767315&Main=5727955
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287715

[morepower]

Man someone told me about hydraulic roller lifters that go longer than the typical 60k you'd expect out of the basic ones...

[BSB67]

Don't mean to tread on the thread here but......
Ron, I think I once read on here or maybe it was another forum about Roller cams, especially the solid lift variety having probllems on the street with the Roller lifter "Axles" wearing out due to high Valve Spring load...What is a person to do if he wants a solid roller on the street?

It is not nearly so black and white.  It is not only a function of lifter quality, but of lobe profile.

[Budnicks]

I would say if you want the best of both worlds go with a Hydraulic Roller you will get much more vacuum at idle for you accessories, I have used a couple of them on the street with no failures... Don't go much over 0.520"-0.550" gross valve lift Int/Exh & duration in the 276/284 advertised & 214/222 degree range @ 0.050 that would be good for street use & have decent vacuum at idle (make lots of power) use 300lbs open spring pressure & 130ish closed spring pressures, use some good at least chrome molly retainers & locks, Comp Cams, Lunati, Hughes, Crane & Iski are all good choices for rockers cams & valve train components... You can always use a 1.6:1 ratio rocker to boost the bottom & top end power some & still be very streetable....    Good luck    

[idahogrumpy]

            OK, I need a education here. Why would hydraulic roller lifters last any longer than solid roller lifters? Big block Mopars like to rpm up so why would you limit the rpm range of your engines rpm availability with hydraulic rollers? I do not understand, if the solid rollers were kept adjusted correctly and the cam being about the same size it would seem to me to be a wash. With deep rear end gears, bigger stall converters, and spirited driving I just do not see why anyone would limit their engine to 5500-6000 rpm with a hydraulic cam. I have NO experience with roller cams so maybe I am wrong about this. Let the education begin!!! 

Grumpy   

[Chryco Psycho]

Hyd roller lifters will collapse under high spring pressure , solid rollers will not so the ramp rate & corresponding spring pressure can be increased , this would obviously increase the load on the lifter / axle so the life should be shorter all things being equal , if the solid has a larger axle diameter or better material used this may not be the case .

I would check out Lunatis roller cams , they are designing a bunch of new street roller hyd & solid cams , a friend has an experimental Lunati hyd roller in the stroked 340 & it is making killer power & milage to boot

[BSB67]

Hyd rollers should not even be compared to solid roller, they are not even in the same realm.    A hydraulic roller is someplace between a hydraulic flat tappet and a solid flat tappet cam.  Just like a hydraulic FT, the fact that it is still a hydraulic lifter limits its capabilities.  They all have slow ramps and will have poorer idle and low end  power than a good solid flat tappet.  You'll get some power back with the lift.  If you're looking for the best street performance for the $, it will be a solid flat tappet over a hydraulic roller.  If you have the money and your worried about cam failure or occasional valve train adjustment, get the hyd.

The moderate solid roller cam lobe profile with corresponding valve spring pressure can live on the street for well over 5K miles if you buy a good lifter.

[Budnicks]

I have to say, if the hydraulic roller was such crap? Why are virtually all of the manufacturers going to hyd. roller camshafts & lifters that are still push rod style engines? & there making upwards of 375+hp mild applications to 650+hp with factory built mas produced engines utilizing hyd. roller camshafts... The camshaft profile is far superior to any std. hydraulic camshaft & the less resistance & friction of the roller lifter frees up some hp/tq... You get the well mannered tendencies of a hyd. cam with far superior camshaft designs & grinds in comparable lifts & duration... There are some great hydraulic roller camshaft grinds out there it really depends on your individual choice in camshafts, not a blanket statement that they aren't as good as mechanical cams or solid roller cams "they all have their place it depends on what you are truly looking for" & what you plan on using it for... I have made well over 700hp from the use of a hyd. roller in a 432ci & 470ci naturally aspirated B-series stroker engines, (it's easier to do with a solid roller, but try to drive it on the street on a regular basis with power brakes & A/C), you could never achieve those numbers with a std. type hyd. camshaft on a naturally aspirated engine of comparable size, or if you can, your a far better builder than I am or many others long time racers & engine builders out there, that's a fact, believe me I've tried, it can't be done... Most of the HP/TQ is made from what kind of cylinder head you have & what modification you have done to accommodate using them, porting, port size & shape/design, chamber shape & size, valve size, flame travel & compression ratios, have been done to them, the camshaft is just another component of the breathing of your engine... A very wise old man (Jim, Cody & Pops you know who you are) & professional engine builders once said "the 3 main parts to build a high HP engine are 1) cylinder heads, 2) cylinder heads, & lastly 3) cylinder heads... Just my 2 cents  

[BSB67]

I did not say they were crap.  They are better than hydraulic FT in most performance measurements.  However, the limitation of the "hydraulic" portion is unchanged.  The roller will allow faster ramp rates above 0.200", thus the higher lift, but will give up rate below that.  The reason the automakers use them is due to FT cam failures in the 80s, and the .01 mpg advantage over the FT.  The friction is insignificant especially at hyd lifter spring pressures.  However, I could be persuaded to believe otherwise, just supply the dyno data with all of the QA/QC data clearly articulated in an apples to apples comparison.

No offense, but the whole HP thing is way overused and usually exaggerated.  Please give specific car weight, ¼ mph, transmission type, DA and cam shaft specs to support the hp claims. 

Again, a good high performance solid roller can pull far more engine idle vacuum than a hydraulic roller for the same 0.050" lift duration.  Power brakes are not a problem with a solid roller intended to achieve that.  My latest roller cam motor pulls 14" vacuum at 850 rpm, has a stock TC, and 3.23 gears, and it is a lollipop cam by most standards.

They absolutely have their place, but one place is not in the arena of max power relative to a solid roller.

Of course hp is about breathing.

[Budnicks]

removed double post

[Budnicks]

No offense, I didn't know I had to qualify any of my statements or prove anything to anybody !!!, OK let me see it's at least maybe 5 year old combo now sold, the car is/was a street driven 68 RR HT lightened some, fiberglass lift off 6bbl hood & FG bumpers, rear mount battery, frame connectors & unfortunately just a roll bar, because of interior & all necessary SFI saftey Equipment needed (well mostly), 3520lbs, w/8.75" back braced w/3.91:1 or 3.73:1 pro gears (I can't remember exactly now too many combos ago) & crappy M/T drag radials 315/50's at Sacramento Raceway corrected altitude was I think around 1200-1800ft (good, for the heat of the day depending on times we ran), 100+ degree day a couple of summers back now so I don't remember the exact day/date, July I think, a Saturday test & tune session, here's 1 of the combos I'm not going to list the other here & now, 700+hp B-engine 1968 383/432ci 0.060" over 4.310" bore, w/440 3.75" stroke internally balanced crankshaft, turn down to 7.215" counterweight diameter to fit in B-Engine block, Eagle forged 6.76" cap screw H-beam rods, older forged lightish (don't remember exact bob weight) custom Venolia 11:1 flattops w/valve notches, 5/64" Zero Gap top & Ductile iron second ring, stainless scraper oil rings, Eddy Alm. RPM heads modified 77cc chambers, Angle plug, 335cfm flow at 0.700"ish lift intake lift 270cfm ? exhaust flow, ARP studs thru out, 440source 1/4" block girdle/steel caps, 7qt. Modified Milidion oil pan & factory windage tray, Milidon Gear drive 4deg. advanced, Childs & Albert tri-metal bearings, Milidon high volume oil pump, the cam was a "reground" Lunati grind small base circle billet & no I'm not going to give you exact specs, I spent tons of money getting my combo perfect & I'm not going to tell everyone how, but it was ball park 288*/0.650ish", old 1.6 ratio Super Gold Crane Rockers & shafts, Smith Brothers custom length 3/8" hardened moly push rods, Crane retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters (probably weakest link & $500), C.E.I Super Gold box at the track & Chrome bax on the street & Blaster coil, Taylor 40+ low ohm resistance 8mm wires, custom 1-7/8" step headers 4" collectors & 20" extensions, Hussey 0.030" solid copper gaskets (bore?) & O-ringed block w/stainless wires, Indy single dominator intake & Holley 1300cfm for the juice & a trick Mopar 6bbl set-up for motor only,self built, with Quick fuel components & a few trick learned over 35+ years of many different classes/levels of racing, 727 manual VB, 3800rpm stall, trans & converter reworked for N20 w/Indy/Dominator comb & no I'm not going to say to what levels of modification, B&M SFI plate, SFI sheilds & aluminum drive shaft & Cap Automotive products upper & lower tubular A-arms trick & double adjustable, old, old, Lamb revalved shocks & Calvert Cal-Tracs & front spring sliders, N/A pass 9.77 et @ 135mph motor only (with trick 6bbl set up) & 8.58et 156mph with old spray bar kit plumbed into an Indy intake manifold w1300cfm carb, old-old Top Gun 300hp N20 kit, 350gpm electric fuel pump, & bypass regulator, CRC Heavy Fuel (Gas) 1/2 ", #8 A/N & lines, poor 60ft times 1.38-140ish if I remember correctly (long time ago now) crappy worn out tires & track conditions.... There you go that's all I am going to go into about the combo.. hope that satisfies some curiosity... p.s. No A/C at that time & would have disconnected the belt at a minimum any way.. don't remember how much exact vacuum either... The new Corvette Z-06 has 658hp with a hydraulic roller & push-rod engine also, I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but they are a good option depending on your usage mine here was an extreme example, just to help prove a point, Just saying it can be done, but can be some what limited in the higher RPM's, like a solid roller is better on top, limiting factors of the hydraulic lifter, you can't have everything I guess...

[Cooter]

Well, I guess it's like anything else, poor 'ol Mopar BB 440 guys are just SOL when it comes to roller stuff..Even the "Sh**y" Hyd. roller sh*t is high as hell. I sure ain't gonna spend $2500.00 to go Roller only to have the solid sh*t wear out in 5K miles...Screw that.

Looks like If I wanna go fast, I'll have to run the Brand "X" LS or 5.0 as they already have roller cams in 'em that last for over 100K miles before replacing sh*t...

[Challenger340]

yep,
sure is nice having lotsa Head Flow, even nicer is the ability to be able to "use" that flow relative to the intended application....
Flowbenchs are not Dynomometers, never will be.
They are just a "tool" to get good results on the latter, although, we've all seen guys fall into the Flow trap with gunga airflow, but a terd for power ?
Far more going on in there with respect to swirl, turbulence, and heat of flamefront propagation & combustion than to go tripping over ourselves focusing too much on strictly Flow, especially on gifted long Rod Engines.

We dyno every engine we build, thats Company policy.
No Dyno test in the Customers presence, NO ENGINE, pure & simple.
So obviously, Happy Customers, with GOOD results on the DYNO, are important to us "eating" ?

That said,
we don't use too many Hydraulic Rollers on BB Mopar stock blocks ?
We have our reasons, but without getting too long winded, the MAIN reason is because not many Customers will spend for us to Bush the Lifter Bores on a stock Block, to maintain adequate Oil pressure on the Lifter plunger against the V/Spring pressure & rate required, to take advantage of any extra benefit the Hydraulic Roller may provide against similar Solid FT cams @ rpm. The key word here being at "RPM".
Yes,
the HR's typically have better, and more useable Torque curves in the low & mid ranges, but the HP gains up high can be negligable, if at all, against a FT if things aren't just "right", and sometimes less.

IMO,
just buying an HR Cam and installing it on a 40 year old BB Mopar "stock" Block with 100,000 mile or more lifter Bores, without paying attention to the Oil Gallery positioning on the lifter, and Blueprinting Main & Rod bearing Oil delivery, as well as Lifter Clearance,
is pure FOLLY in my mind.
NOT that many don't get "lucky",(as I'm gonna put it), ram in an HR cam, and "think" it's just ducky, just that, again IMO, they've left lots on the table at great parts expense for NOTHING,
against a Solid FT that can leak, and still RPM just fine.

just my opinion, no wars wanted.......

[Budnicks]

I would tend to agree, just think there are options & all styles of cams can be made to work, depends on what your trying to achieve, what your knowledge base is & if the proper set up & assembly, & components are used, it's not the best choice for everyone maybe or most cost effective for that fact, but it's something to think about... I personally use Solid rollers on 99.99% of my race engine builds also, just wanted to build a couple of Hyd. Roller combos & see what would happen, with decent results, attention to detail should be the same on any engine build whether it's a hyd. roller or solid... 

[1RareBird]

I am having this dilemma right now actually.  Have a fresh short block 440 with edelbrock heads and already bought a comp roller cam.  It's a 230-235@.050 and 540-544 lift cam on 112 lobe sep angle for efi use.  Now what lifter to use??? The best I can see from my research and many phone calls is to use Morels and stay away from everyone else.  Also, from what I've heard is that Morels will have a new tool steel hydraulic roller available after they finish up with the fords first (figures).  I would assume they wont be out ontil nest year but are supposed to be very promising.  I may even wait until then and get the new ones.  One think most engine builders have stated is that these old blocks are not the best for accuracy in the lifter bores and should be checked and most of the time bushed.  Don't know if this info helps or not but thought I'd post it anyway.

[BSB67]

No offense, I didn't know I had to qualify any of my statements or prove anything to anybody !!!, OK let me see it's at least maybe 5 year old combo now sold, the car is/was a street driven 68 RR HT lightened some, fiberglass lift off 6bbl hood & FG bumpers, rear mount battery, frame connectors & unfortunately just a roll bar, because of interior & all necessary SFI saftey Equipment needed (well mostly), 3520lbs, w/8.75" back braced w/3.91:1 or 3.73:1 pro gears (I can't remember exactly now too many combos ago) & crappy M/T drag radials 315/50's at Sacramento Raceway corrected altitude was I think around 1200-1800ft (good, for the heat of the day depending on times we ran), 100+ degree day a couple of summers back now so I don't remember the exact day/date, July I think, a Saturday test & tune session, here's 1 of the combos I'm not going to list the other here & now, 700+hp B-engine 1968 383/432ci 0.060" over 4.310" bore, w/440 3.75" stroke internally balanced crankshaft, turn down to 7.215" counterweight diameter to fit in B-Engine block, Eagle forged 6.76" cap screw H-beam rods, older forged lightish (don't remember exact bob weight) custom Venolia 11:1 flattops w/valve notches, 5/64" Zero Gap top & Ductile iron second ring, stainless scraper oil rings, Eddy Alm. RPM heads modified 77cc chambers, Angle plug, 335cfm flow at 0.700"ish lift intake lift 270cfm ? exhaust flow, ARP studs thru out, 440source 1/4" block girdle/steel caps, 7qt. Modified Milidion oil pan & factory windage tray, Milidon Gear drive 4deg. advanced, Childs & Albert tri-metal bearings, Milidon high volume oil pump, the cam was a "reground" Lunati grind small base circle billet & no I'm not going to give you exact specs, I spent tons of money getting my combo perfect & I'm not going to tell everyone how, but it was ball park 288*/0.650ish", old 1.6 ratio Super Gold Crane Rockers & shafts, Smith Brothers custom length 3/8" hardened moly push rods, Crane retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters (probably weakest link & $500), C.E.I Super Gold box at the track & Chrome bax on the street & Blaster coil, Taylor 40+ low ohm resistance 8mm wires, custom 1-7/8" step headers 4" collectors & 20" extensions, Hussey 0.030" solid copper gaskets (bore?) & O-ringed block w/stainless wires, Indy single dominator intake & Holley 1300cfm for the juice & a trick Mopar 6bbl set-up for motor only,self built, with Quick fuel components & a few trick learned over 35+ years of many different classes/levels of racing, 727 manual VB, 3800rpm stall, trans & converter reworked for N20 w/Indy/Dominator comb & no I'm not going to say to what levels of modification, B&M SFI plate, SFI sheilds & aluminum drive shaft & Cap Automotive products upper & lower tubular A-arms trick & double adjustable, old, old, Lamb revalved shocks & Calvert Cal-Tracs & front spring sliders, N/A pass 9.77 et @ 135mph motor only (with trick 6bbl set up) & 8.58et 156mph with old spray bar kit plumbed into an Indy intake manifold w1300cfm carb, old-old Top Gun 300hp N20 kit, 350gpm electric fuel pump, & bypass regulator, CRC Heavy Fuel (Gas) 1/2 ", #8 A/N & lines, poor 60ft times 1.38-140ish if I remember correctly (long time ago now) crappy worn out tires & track conditions.... There you go that's all I am going to go into about the combo.. hope that satisfies some curiosity... p.s. No A/C at that time & would have disconnected the belt at a minimum any way.. don't remember how much exact vacuum either... The new Corvette Z-06 has 658hp with a hydraulic roller & push-rod engine also, I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but they are a good option depending on your usage mine here was an extreme example, just to help prove a point, Just saying it can be done, but can be some what limited in the higher RPM's, like a solid roller is better on top, limiting factors of the hydraulic lifter, you can't have everything I guess...

Actually, I don't believe that I asked for all that information, just four or five specific items.  You did not include an apples to apples comparison.
You certainly are making lots of power.   However, I'll argue that it is not because of the roller on your hyd cam lifters, instead it's because the cam is huge.   And of course, when we are talking about huge cams with lifts over .600" and cylinder heads to support it, the advantage goes more toward the hyd roller over FT cams because, I like I said earlier, the gains for hyd rollers come on the sunny side of .200" (lobe) lift.  The typical street guy will not be in the world of 335 cfm heads at .650" lift to take advantage of the hyd. Roller lift advantage.  Not that the advantage is not there, it's just less.
My response is more geared to the typical street guys, like I believe the OP is.   Ron mentioned earlier the CC 280 HR.  Great cam.  Everyone that I know that has it, loves it, for various reasons.  However, out of the same CC catalog, you can get a hyd FT that will make power just short of the 280HR, and a solid FT that will make more,  while retaining all of the idle, vacuum, and low speed drivability characteristics of the 280HR.  It comes down to what you are looking for, and what you are willing to pay for it.

[Chryco Psycho]

Isky is advertizing a new roller lifter with no needle brgs , you may want to look into those

[BSB67]

Isky is advertizing a new roller lifter with no needle brgs , you may want to look into those

They have had them for about 4 or 5 years.  Back then, I think most guys were holding back to see how they turned out i.e. noboby wanted to be the guinea pig at + $1,000 considering that their roller style is a known, and a very good product.  Again, with the typical profiles that guys are running on the street, which will work with 200/500 or 250/600 spring pressures, the roller style Red Zone lifter will last a long time.