Opinions on parts for 440 before I pull trigger

[BombSquad]

Hey guys, I have a 68 that currently has a 440 +.030 , 906 heads with minor porting and 2.14 1.81 valves, 10.2:1 compression, steel crank, 6 pack rods and unknown pistons, Mopar 509 cam ( the old narrow lsa one), 70s aluminum intake etc etc. A mild build that runs fine on pump gas but is not a good match for the 2500 stall and 3.23 gears.

What I want is a solid pro touring build with some power to hang with a Shelby cobra or new 6.4l srt Challenger.  Looking to be able to trap at 115 - 120 mph and still take on road trips. So the plan is to throw in the brand new Keisler RS 600 5 speed mAnual which has a .67 overdrive and to throw in some 3.73 gears or so.

For the engine, I have MCH building me a set of 84 cc stealth heads with their full cnc and 10.7:1, added a inner spring, and (wince) 440 source roller rockers. He assures me the 440 source rockers are better now and will hold up to the cam I plan to use. I planned on a Lunati 60304 flat hydraulic which is about 234 / 242 dur and .513/.533 lift. And  for the intake I planned on a holley Street dominator. Still unsure about the carb

Does anyone have an opinion on how the new build would work? Will it have the oats to trap 120 mph in my heavy car?  Thanks for any advice!

[BombSquad]

I was also considering bumping up to the Lunati 60305. 242/252 and 533 552 lift. Flat hydraulic.

[redmist]

I ran the XS282S Solid on my build that is close to yours, and made 500hp and 540 Ft Lbs if that helps...

Mines a 30 over 440 E-heads out of the box.

[elacruze]

Here's what I did for my touring engine;

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,73529.0/all.html

If you don't stroke it, you'll need more gear. I have the old (1982) .509 cam in my old 440, and with Stage IV heads and 11:1 compression it drove sweet with an Edelbrock CH4B manifold. I put on a single plane M1 a few years ago, and it absolutely killed the street manners. If not for the high compression with iron open chamber heads, and my intention to get off the beaten path with it I wouldn't have bothered to build this new engine. That said, it's a 4-speed car with 4:10 gears so the performance was ample.

[firefighter3931]

For the engine, I have MCH building me a set of 84 cc stealth heads with their full cnc and 10.7:1, added a inner spring, and (wince) 440 source roller rockers. He assures me the 440 source rockers are better now and will hold up to the cam I plan to use. I planned on a Lunati 60304 flat hydraulic which is about 234 / 242 dur and .513/.533 lift. And  for the intake I planned on a holley Street dominator. Still unsure about the carb

Does anyone have an opinion on how the new build would work? Will it have the oats to trap 120 mph in my heavy car?  Thanks for any advice!

It depends on the weight...120mph in the 1/4 takes some steam in a heavy car ! My old 446 made 535hp and best trap speed was 116.5mph 

So the big question is : How much will the car weigh ? Any plans to lighten it up ?

INMO...if you want to keep it streetable you're going to want to stroke it to 493-500ci assuming the 120mph trap speeds. 


Ron

[BombSquad]

Thanks for the responses guys. My thinking is that I can get away with moving the sweet spot to higher rpms with the new 5 speed, and still have good street manners? The steeper first gear of the RS 600 I think will help out a bunch. I wanted to make it capable of low effort 6500 rpm shifts to utilize the higher flow CNC heads. And BTW, this new transmission is supposed to be just light years ahead of a tremec, with 2 finger shift effort up to 7000 rpm and an internal guide plate for easy 2-3 shifts!

I don't want to stroke it because for my application, the lower displacement will be a little less hard on fuel and I can make up for the missing cubes by setting it up to rev a little higher than the average daily driver stroker. At least that's my thinking, I could be off  I just want the most bang for the buck with the cam and intake choice.

What do you think? Am I making a mistake going with the long duration cam and street dominator over a less aggressive cam and say, eddy performer rpm? How will around town response be? I shelled out an extra $1000 for cnc work on the heads so id like to utilize them to the fullest!

And elacruze, that efi build is super cool. I plan to go procharger and efi someday!

[BombSquad]

Ron, sorry i didn't see your response before I started typing. I dont know what I weigh! It is manual disc brakes, manual steering and non A/C. Also the RS 600 tranny is only 80 or 90 lbs I think! All steel sheetmetal and factory k frame.

Thanks for chiming in Ron, I am super impressed every time you help someone out on here!

[nvrbdn]

i was really trying to read what you wrote, but all i could think about was playing volley ball. so sorry i cant help

[firefighter3931]

Ron, sorry i didn't see your response before I started typing. I dont know what I weigh! It is manual disc brakes, manual steering and non A/C. Also the RS 600 tranny is only 80 or 90 lbs I think! All steel sheetmetal and factory k frame.

Thanks for chiming in Ron, I am super impressed every time you help someone out on here!

Well i can tell you these beasts are heavy in full street trim ; mine weighs 3850 with a full interior, power steering, manual SSBC disc brakes, Dana, 727trans and an 8 point rollbar with subframe connectors. 

Have you considered a solid roller cam ? Comp has some street roller grinds that aren't too hard on the valvetrain and are very streetable with nice manners. The roller would give you more high lift "area" vs a flat tappet and be much nicer to tune ; better idle/throttle response/vacuum. The downside is the added cost & mainterance. 

Jeff's CNC work (increased flow) is usually worth 40-50hp so i can see you wanting to access that additional power. 



Ron

[elacruze]

'Street Manners' are of course a matter of personal preference and opinion, so here's mine;

If it won't idle for an hour without overheating or stalling, bad manners.
If it surges and bucks while cruising at 2000RPM, bad manners.
If you accidentally squeal the tires at least once every time you drive it, bad manners.

To me, street manners are all in the first half inch of pedal travel. It has to be smooth as butter. I take the word 'Touring' very seriously-I built mine with the intent to drive while looking out the window with no more concern for the drivability than I would in any stock car.

[BSB67]

"Does anyone have an opinion on how the new build would work? Will it have the oats to trap 120 mph in my heavy car?  Thanks for any advice!"

Not even close.  What does it trap now?

[BombSquad]

Ron I have been considering solid FT or solid Roller but cost is a bit of an issue and I plan on letting my dad have the car for long periods of time so I don't want him to have to worry about checking lash or funny noises coming from the valve train. I know it'd definitely be a better bet power wise though. I was hoping that the Voodoo cam with the .904 lifter profile would somewhat make up for the area under the curve effect that the rollers give.

If I stick with a hyd FT cam, would you recommend others like maybe a Hughes or something else over the voodoo?

Elacruze, I can tell by that thread that you take it seriously! It looks to be one hell of a unique build! I wish I had the funds for EFI because I was going to go Pro Flo XT with an F1 procharger. I would hope that this combo has decent street manners but I doubt they would be that good.

[BSB67]

Ron I have been considering solid FT or solid Roller but cost is a bit of an issue and I plan on letting my dad have the car for long periods of time so I don't want him to have to worry about checking lash or funny noises coming from the valve train. I know it'd definitely be a better bet power wise though. I was hoping that the Voodoo cam with the .904 lifter profile would somewhat make up for the area under the curve effect that the rollers give.

If I stick with a hyd FT cam, would you recommend others like maybe a Hughes or something else over the voodoo?

Elacruze, I can tell by that thread that you take it seriously! It looks to be one hell of a unique build! I wish I had the funds for EFI because I was going to go Pro Flo XT with an F1 procharger. I would hope that this combo has decent street manners but I doubt they would be that good.

I guess you did not like my dose of reality.  Did not mean to offend.  Let me be more clear.  The Lunati 304 cam is smaller than the 509.  The 304 is a better design, has faster ramps, will drive better and have better low end response, but will probably not make more hp, and therefore the trap speed likely not change.  The ET might get better.  The transmission does not make hp so again it might increases mph by 1 mph only because it is more efficient.  Some of that might get lost if it has wide ratios.  The compression ratio increase of .5 will net nothing going from iron to aluminum.  So you're left with the flow advantage of the ported Stealth's.  Let's call it a 50 hp increase.  That will be a 4 to 5 mph increase over what you have now, all else being equal.  We know nothing about the short block, your driving skills, and your tuning skills, But your current et and mph will give us a starting point for those items.  If you run 110 now, you'll probably run 115 with the switch you describe.  Finding another 60 hp (to get to 120 mph) with a different hyd cam with good street manners is unlikely.

[firefighter3931]

Ron I have been considering solid FT or solid Roller but cost is a bit of an issue and I plan on letting my dad have the car for long periods of time so I don't want him to have to worry about checking lash or funny noises coming from the valve train. I know it'd definitely be a better bet power wise though. I was hoping that the Voodoo cam with the .904 lifter profile would somewhat make up for the area under the curve effect that the rollers give.

If I stick with a hyd FT cam, would you recommend others like maybe a Hughes or something else over the voodoo?

If you're looking to stay with a Flat tappet cam the Comp Cams Extreme Energy High Lift series is your best bet, inmo.

The XE285HL will make some power and run descent but it won't be tame....but certainly streetable. You will be solidly above 500hp which may or may not meet your ET/MPH goals. That largely depends on the raceweight/chassis setup and driver skill level which was alluded to by Russ in the post above. 


Ron

[BombSquad]

Sorry BSB67 I never saw your post before responding. At the very least, the car will be lighter with the  RS 600 and aluminum bellhousing, than the average RB 2nd gen charger and put a little more power to the wheels (I understand a manual puts way more responsibility on the driver). Plus the ratios are very well spaced, the best IMO of all the current 5 speed manual choices. Ron mentioned his older 535hp 440 pushed him to 116 mph and I think between the hundred pounds saved with the transmission, more efficient delivery and potentially a little more HP (with the fully ported heads and depending on cam/intake choice) that the car could run close to the 120mph mark.

I don't want to get too tied up in the numbers, it was more of an off-handed remark about what you guys think the car could run. I am mostly concerned with picking the cam and intake based on the board members experiences, and I'm not sure how much real world difference the cams I have mentioned will provide in terms of drivability and actual track performance.

Ron, what's the reason you recommend the Comp over Lunati? I am a bit lost when it comes to split profile cams. I read that some guru from Engle (could be wrong) went to Lunati and brought his Mopar know-how with him.

241/247 .545/.545 - LSA 110 = Comp XE285HL
242/252 .533/.552 - LSA 110 = Lunati 60305

Any preference as far as intakes go?

A friend just picked up a brand spanking new CTS-V, I'd hate to get shown his tail lights. Low 12 second car at 117-118 mph!