Give me (them) a break, sleeping on the job?

[last426]

When folks have to work overnight, everyone sleeps on the job.  In a past life I was a utility operator at a large coal fired electricity plant.  Worked a week of days, a week of evenings and a week of overnights, then back to days.  I am a night person so the days were hard to get up in the morning, the evenings were a breeze, but those nights, about 4 or 5 in the morning, were killers.  I used to go up to the control room and all 3 of the operators were fast asleep.  Because of scheduling I worked with 3 different control room teams.  All did the same thing.  Air traffic controllers are against the same human instincts and should be given a break.  The issue itself should be addressed, not the individuals.  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703730104576261072278763398.html?mod=WSJ_article_related  Kim

[PocketThunder]

Whats the backup story to your post? 


I work 8 to 4:30...

[NHCharger]

Huh I hope you are just baiting people to try and start an argument because this is destined for a lock down.

[TK73]

That is from a recent incident with an air traffic controller who took a "nap" on the job while another controller worked.

Was in the news...

[resq302]

I really don't see a big deal with this as long as SOMEONE was watching his post or position.  I can see if he was the only person who was working and supposed to be watching the tower but there were other people  covering for him.

[moparguy01]

I used to work nights, 6pm to 4:30AM. somehow, amazingly, I managed to do my damn job and not go to sleep.I must be amazing.

[Todd Wilson]

Its a tough thing to work at night. Some people can do it but most cant. Its just not natural to be up at night. Nature pretty much stops at night.  Those that are on call to work at any time really have a tough time staying awake.  Others who have set hours where they work everyday can deal with it easier but their problem is still life happens during the daylight hours and they can either sleep and miss out on life or be up during the day and then work at night.



Todd

[TK73]

I've worked 4 overnight jobs.  3 in psychiatric facilities and 1 in a hotel.  The 3 in the facilities were usually mixed with other shifts.  Glad I don't have to do that crap any more.

[last426]

I used to work nights, 6pm to 4:30AM. somehow, amazingly, I managed to do my damn job and not go to sleep.I must be amazing.

You, amazing as you are, were not working overnights.  You worked what I called evenings and those are a breeze.  Heck, I worked 5 to 2:30, sometimes 4:30, while I went to college full time and during high school.  But this is different than starting work at 11 and going until 8 or so.  Kim

[Tilar]

I generally go to bed early and am up by 4 or 4:30 every morning, including most weekends. When I was driving truck, if I got a load where I had to drive all night, I would plan on stopping around 5am because that was as far as I could go without getting drowsy.

That first ATC didn't have anyone else in the control tower with him. If I recall the story right there were two planes that landed with no tower communications.

[ITSA426]

I agree this needs to be addressed through staffing increase, at least for the FAA issues.  Staffing was cut when the air traffic controllers were fired by Reagan.  I also knew several overnight freight pilots that would catch a few winks while the other pilot stayed up.  Some jobs are slow and boring for long periods of time.  Darkness and circadian rhythm just make it tougher.

[BrianShaughnessy]

At my yob here at HAL,   I have to read / understand / signoff on conditions of employment every year.  Sleeping on the job is not permitted.     That doesn't stop it from happening and I see some individuals passed out frequently.   I doubt it's a secret about some people...  although the rest of us try to cover up for them,  for now.

But with this... the FAA is setting a schedule based on costs and not safety.    I believe what they're doing is making people work different shifts during the week.    If there was a rotating schedule that somebody has to work it 1 week a month or something it might be easier.   Switching schedules is not easy on the body.

I would have assumed there would always be at least 2 in the tower at all times in case of emergencies...     guess not.     I can't even come in and work by myself on the weekends for overtime alone... always needs to be 2 people for safety coverage.

[bull]

Maybe he's referring to Biden? $230k/year and he can't stay awake in the daylight during his boss's speech (not that I really blame him for that). http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/biden-falls-asleep-obama-debt-plan-speech-13367372

[ITSA426]

Bull, there's a whole other thread going about napping elected officials.  It isn't locked yet.

[charge69]

Quick answer is (I just retired as an ATC specialist at Houston AT Control Center) we work a different shift every day of the week and a mid shift is part of the rotation, being the last day of the week. At a Center (20 or so in the U.S.) we always have 2 people per specialty working the mid shift and always have. Came as a surprise to me that their are a number of Towers that allow only one ATC Specialist on the mid shift now, soon to change I'll bet, and I can guarantee you it is a cost-saving move by the FAA that got them in trouble.

I see a lot of "newbies" coming  to work and burning the candle at both ends has burnt them more than once. The FAA has to be embarrased about this and will find a way to blame the controllers. Always has and always will even though half the "sleeping controllers" have been supervisors that have been caught.

[bull]

Bull, there's a whole other thread going about napping elected officials.  It isn't locked yet.

So what?

[Todd Wilson]

Bull, there's a whole other thread going about napping elected officials.  It isn't locked yet.

So what?

So lets dance........................

[last426]

Quick answer is (I just retired as an ATC specialist at Houston AT Control Center) we work a different shift every day of the week and a mid shift is part of the rotation, being the last day of the week.

One of the articles I read said ATCs were not allowed to doze even during their breaks   That's brutal.  Half of my overnights were in  a scrubber control room with another guy -- we got tired but at least kept each other amused by turning ear protectors into chess pieces and going a round or two.  Kim

[John_Kunkel]

Those who make a big issue of the controllers sleeping don't realize (or ignore) how many airports have no towers at all and conduct night operations on a regular basis.

[resq302]

Those who make a big issue of the controllers sleeping don't realize (or ignore) how many airports have no towers at all and conduct night operations on a regular basis.

John, our small municipal airport in the town where I work has that exact scenario!  I order to have the runway lights come on, they tune to a specific channel and click the mic a certain number of times.  Walla!  Lights come on, they land.  Done!

[Cooter]

In my car club, the guys can't understand why i make a big deal out of never getting on a plane. I don't fly for these type reasons...If they could keep thoise planes in the air, keep idiots from crashing 'em into buildings, and basically, maintain 'em properly maybe the price of a plane ticket would come down, more people would travel and the FAA or whatever, could hire enough ATC to get the job done without shift work...Nah, they'd still make 'em work like this and pocket all the profit, who am I kidding....

[nh_mopar_fan]

I'm no pilot but it would seem to me that there's a big difference between flying into an airport where you know there is no tower/controller and one where a controller is expected to be.

[Drache]

I work two 7am-7pm day shifts then work two 7pm-7am night shifts right away then get 4 days off.

If I sleep during any of my shifts it's instant dismissal, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I understand why very well and accept that.

[Mr.Woolery]

I wouldn't have a problem working graveyard shift for years at a time.  I did it before and LOVED it...loved it so much, in fact, that I regretted going back to a normal day shift.  I never got tired or slept on the job, either.  During slow times, I even got a lot of reading in (usually a book a night).

I'd love to have a good paying graveyard shift job.  It also allows for an amazing amount of convenience during the day--everything is open whenever you want to do any errands during your "off" time.

The key is to understand your sleep cycles and use them to your advantage.  In my case, I found out that I slept in 3 hour cycles, so I split my sleep time into two periods--one 3 hours long, the other either 3 or 6 hours, depending on my needs.  Sleep deprivation was never a problem.  the funny thing for me was that people would see me all bright and cheery all night and many times during the middle of the day...and I got a reputation as being someone who never slept! 

I think a rotating schedule, though, would be pure hell.  Your body would never have time to acclimate to a fixed schedule.  Seems to me it'd be like living with constant jet lag.

[Brock Samson]

 At the Newspaper every summer i would work Graveyard Shift from 12:00 AM to 8:00 AM for five weeks while the regular guy who did it and loved his shift was on Vac.
My primary job besides the small amount of Library Archive and some Mail and Newspaper Distribution was to monitor the Scanner for Major Fires and Crimes, I had to learn all the codes the Fire and Police used, but more important was to denote the tone of voice the Dispatchers and Emergency Personal used. Git really good at that after a few weeks.
In any case after I had completed the nights Archive for the Lib. I would strech out on the City Desk on a sleeping bag I brought to work - put a Sporting Green over my eyes and catch about four to five hours.
Now I allways had an ear out for the scanner which was right next to me, and over the years I woke to several large fires of four alarms or more and several major accidents, plane crashes hostage situations and the like. The Exec. Editors of course didn't want to be called into the Office at 4:00 am and would always grill me when I called to alert them, I had to call the top editors and a Photog. and the nearist reporters to the scene. They were never happy campers though I did on occasion get a pat on the back when it turned out to be a really big story.
They don't do that anymore, there is no competition for news anymore, that stuff just all slips thru the cracks nowadays.
So anyhow - I'd get up around first light and finish up the Morning Shift Prep. Check the "Wires" They don't have Teletype machines anymore, The Assoc. Press. UPI and Reutrs Press from Europe to make sure I hadn't missed war breaking out or whatever... Then greet the first person of the early shift of the day at 8.. fill them in on whatever had transpired the night before and go out for an awesome breakfast... then by 10:30 am I'd be at the beach and sleep on the grass for a few hours to get my full 8. Kept my bike in the trunk and would bike ride all over, stay up - go to clubs till 11:40, then go to work again. I did that regular as rain for over 25 years. I Loved it too.  a great gig five weeks every Aug.

[Old Moparz]

I would never work a graveyard shift by choice. For about a month one summer, I worked 8PM to 4AM at Penn Station in NYC surveying tracks, platforms, beams, columns, etc., measuring for new overhead access bridges. We could only work on the tracks at night & had no choice. The heat & diesel fumes made you want to fall asleep standing up. (Yes, there was a rule or law that the trains couldn't idle, but they did anyway.) It sucked driving from upstate NY to NYC to begin with, but the ride home was absolutely brutal. I slept in the car many times in parking lots on the way home so I didn't fall asleep driving. As tired as I was, falling asleep at 6AM was almost impossible. I felt like a zombie for a long time.

The FAA is simply reacting to a problem that surfaced & no different than any other agency or department when they get called out on something. The air traffic controllers went on strike a long time ago because of working conditions & got canned instead. Maybe they should have simply sacrificed a few of themselves back then by falling asleep, then getting caught to get the point across.   

[flyinlow]

The two circadian lows , 2-5 pm and the killer 2-5 am , have been documented for years. Unfortunately Company's and Governments sometimes give the issue only lip service when it comes to the money issue. This leaves it to the individual to deal with as best they can. Not always effectively.

From taking to Air Traffic Controllers , they will work Ground Control for a couple hours, take a coffee break, then maybe work Approach Control for awhile ,etc. to help combat fatigue.  With only one Controller on duty it would be tough. ( hope the bathrooms near by)

I'm no pilot but it would seem to me that there's a big difference between flying into an airport where you know there is no tower/controller and one where a controller is expected to be.

Yes , landing without hearing "Cleared to land" form the Tower Controller would be disconcerting.

[John_Kunkel]

I'm no pilot but it would seem to me that there's a big difference between flying into an airport where you know there is no tower/controller and one where a controller is expected to be.

There obviously is, but the basic rules all pilots follow are "see and avoid" and that includes being under the control of a tower. Making an uncleared landing at a controlled airport where there are only a few flights in the wee hours isn't as dangerous as the media has made it out to be.

[Steve P.]

I believe there are many good points made here, but in a nut shell I WANT TO KNOW that the best possible job is being done when I am flying. 

I have worked in several jobs where lives depended on everyone there. Including a nuke plant. SHIFT WORK, in my opinion, is NOT A GOOD IDEA. We stuck to 12 and 12 by 72 hours. That was tough enough. Changing shifts all the time is brutal. Especially when life has some fun plans for you. Like KIDS and crazy weather.... Shift work is stressful..

[b5blue]

  Speaking from actual experience as an ex USAF tower controller, 18 months of swing-mid-morning-night rotating shifts was nuts. In the 18 months I figured out several things before requesting cross training. A: Your life becomes a blur of shifts, days mean nothing, weeks are meaningless as are relationships with other "normal" people that work the same part of a 24 hour day and have 2 days off. B: All ATC personnel no matter where (Radar Center or Tower) must deal with not only this but the burden of memorizing a set of regulations the size (literally) of a full set of Encyclopedia. (Along with constant "notes to airmen" with specific modifications and addendum's to your local area and its changing situations) C: Power struggles and bickering among a bunch of cranky sleep deprived, isolated, sometimes egotistical workers. D: A lack of understanding by the general public as to what the heck you do and why you do it.
  Over all I have a very deep respect for all ATC employees and an even deeper respect for all military ones as they are grossly under payed. The way they are asked to do their job and how well they do it despite that is largely beyond reproach having done it myself.
  I heard of sweet spots like towers that closed at 9 or 10 PM and reopened at 7 AM, rumors of "Fixed shift facility's" and rotations of shifts where you worked the same shift for a month then changed but these were exceptions. (or just flat out rumors) These highly trained professionals love aviation to a degree most will never understand and serve you well day in and day out. There is much greater danger in airliner maintenance cost cutting and service schedules getting "fudged" from deregulation and self inspection then in control tower and center operations in my book.    Check wheels down...your cleared to land!       

[Mr.Woolery]

I would totally love to be a full time, graveyard shift only ATC employee.  Constantly changing shifts are killer, but I would thrive working graveyard shifts exclusively for the rest of my working career life.

[b5blue]

If there had been even "hope" of any "steady shift" I'd have stayed.....

[Budnicks]

Fire thier butt that's what happens in the real world.     Budnicks