Well...I'm not impressed by TTI header quality...

[madmike]

I posted a few weeks ago, about trying to install a set of Hedman Hedders on my '68 Charger 440, 4 speed.  Those headers would not fit, and no amount of local 'denting' and 'clearancing' was going to make them fit either.  I had used Hedman's on other vehicles I own, and was satisfied with their level of quality vs cost.  They just didn't work on the Charger, and worse, talking to Hedman yeilded no results either.

So, I did a bunch of research, and it seemed TTI, Doug Thorley or Schumacher was the way to go, for at least double the price of the Hedmans!  And, if I wanted a fancy coating, would be even more money.  And, to have the fancy coating, you should do the engine break-in using an old set of headers, or stock exhaust manifolds, as recommended by those companies.  I have no old headers or manifolds.  So, I elected to buy the 1 3/4" dia headers, with no coating of any kind, from TTI.  I chose the diameter based on two things:  my motor is fairly stock (cam, aluminum intake, big carb, electronic ignition, basically), and I felt the smaller tube diameter would give me a little more clearance around things like the starter (which is where I had all of my problems with the Hedman's - the starter wouldn't fit).

Well, I installed the driver side header last night, and the number one tube impacts my Powermaster 9300 mini starter.  So I pulled the header out, and installed a stock starter, and the number three tube hits that.  Since the headers are non-returnable (says so on the web site), I went ahead and dented my over $700 headers to fit the mini-starter.  I was pissed.  For the cost of these headers, they should fit, period.  If they interfered with a torsion bar, or steering box, or some other area where there is the possiblity of variableness from car to car, then I could understand some slight denting, possibly.  These headers interfered with the two most popular styles of starters out there!  And those dimensions do not vary from car to car.  If I had bought the even more expensive headers with the fancy coating, I would've been even more pissed.

I am not satisfied with the level of quality vs cost of TTI's product.  They fit about as well as $300 header would have.  That's my  opinion...  If I had known how much of a headache headers were going to be, I would have started looking for a good set of stock cast iron high flow exhaust manifolds...

[BananaDan]

I have Hooker Super Comp's, 2"/3.5" and a Denso mini-torque starter.  They didn't fit either, but they hit one of the frame rails which we notched and reinforced.  The only problem I had with the mini starter was that it came with some sort of an adapter on one of the wire connections that made it hit the header.  I called the vendor and they said that is there for more modern cars and for my car to remove the adapter and connect the wire to the connection that the adapter sat in.  Maybe that will help you too?  The mini starters should definitely have clearance since they are so much smaller than stock.

Oh, and when we called Hooker about it hitting the frame rail they were d**ks too.  It was like having an argument with a 4 year old.

"The headers don't fit, they hit the frame rail."
"They fit."
"No they don't."
"Yes they do."
"No they don't."
"Yes they do."

F me.

Dan

[Nacho-RT74]

question is... they say fits to 440s... but ON WHICH CAR?

[BananaDan]

http://www.holley.com/5209-1HKR.asp

This is what I bought.  Says it fits 67-72 Chargers w/440.

They suck.  Albeit if I got the 1 7/8" x 3" I probably would have been ok b/c we were barely off by an 1/8" - 1/4" with the frame rail.  But with the way they treated me and my body shop guy, they're dead to me.  But their site and catalog both say they fit.

Dan

[BananaDan]

And, to have the fancy coating, you should do the engine break-in using an old set of headers, or stock exhaust manifolds, as recommended by those companies.  I have no old headers or manifolds. 

BTW, I too was in your shoes and didn't have my old headers when it came time for reassembly and break-in and Hooker offers the same warning both in their documentation and a big bright warning paper in the box.  But I went with the ceramic coating anyway and broke my engine in with them on.  I spoke with my mechanic about the warning and he said the warnings are mainly for the period of time from when the engine fires up for the first time and when you get the timing set properly.  If that duration of time lasts too long, the coating can get damaged.  He said he could time her in very fast and it shouldn't be a concern. They just put the warning on there for people that can't do that or don't have 2-3 people around for a break-in (one to start, one to set the timing and other hands for whatever), thereby damaging the coating.  The manufacturers don't want to be responsible for taking them back.  Plus, I didn't have a choice, so I trusted him.  In the end, nothing was damaged, she has been broken in and ~250 miles later they still look like they are fresh out of the box.

Dan

[Domino]

So it would be wise to purchase heads, headers, starter, torsion bars, motor mounts, etc and dry fit the drivetrain before painting the car.   
Even that wouldn't fix the shitty header issue...Just allow mods to be made before paint.

Sucks cause with tight budgeting in order to keep moving fwd on phases of work, I'd like to avoid making those decisions and forking out that $$$ just to have the stuff sit on a shelf for a while. 

I thought TTI were the ^ mopar experts...   ^ insert "self proclaimed" I suppose.

[BananaDan]

Yeah, MadMike is the first complaint I've heard about TTI headers.  Whenever I tell people about about my Hooker experience, they always tell me I should've used TTI.

Dan

[Kern Dog]

Dan...You have a HOOKER experience? Please, details! Details!
The TTI headers in my 360 Duster fit great.. zero interference anywhere. The 2" TTI headers in my 70 Charger 440 also fit great. I use the Denso mini starter, which is slightly smaller than the Powermaster I pulled out. I have new motor mounts. MY car has never been in a wreck. I have power steering and one inch torsion bars. One feature that I really appreciate is that the collectors aim toward the raised sections in the torsion bar crossmember, saving 2 bends in the exhaust pipes. Less bends mean less restriction.
I had 2 sets of Hooker headers on this car, the 5903 and 5209 units. Both fit okay on the right side but needed smashing on the left side. They also took far longer to install and remove.

[440]

I have Hooker headers on my 69 440 and they fit pretty good, only contacted the frame rail which one tube was notched. I don't seem to have the dreaded spark plug issues either that some people talk about. Other then that I think they're a good header.  

[Cooter]

Geesh, headers rarely "Fit" without ANY Problems...I bought a set of CPPA 2" underchassis headers back 15 years ago for an A-body (Still got car and headers), and they were $547.00 to my door back then..Guess what? They Hit sh*t, rub in places, etc...Headers are for performance..

It does suck that TTI is obviously by your discription Madmike, cheaper with the build quality now that they have a name out there..Here's a piece of advice for anybody thinking bout buying headers...THEY MIGHT HIT AND RUB...I have one set that is supposed to fit 4-speed or auto, and power steering..Guess what? They don't fit power steering and the rear tube on driver's side looks like it was bent up by Ray Charles..Right in the way of the clutch Z-bar..I made 'em fit...

[BananaDan]

Dan...You have a HOOKER experience? Please, details! Details!
The TTI headers in my 360 Duster fit great.. zero interference anywhere. The 2" TTI headers in my 70 Charger 440 also fit great. I use the Denso mini starter, which is slightly smaller than the Powermaster I pulled out. I have new motor mounts. MY car has never been in a wreck. I have power steering and one inch torsion bars. One feature that I really appreciate is that the collectors aim toward the raised sections in the torsion bar crossmember, saving 2 bends in the exhaust pipes. Less bends mean less restriction.
I had 2 sets of Hooker headers on this car, the 5903 and 5209 units. Both fit okay on the right side but needed smashing on the left side. They also took far longer to install and remove.

Exact same experience, same headers, and same car setup as me.   

[Back N Black]

I have a 69 Charger with 440, TTI Headers and mini starter with no problems. I was very impressed with the ease of the starter and headers install.

[madmike]

Well, I installed the passenger side header last night, and because there are less obstructions (no starter, clutch Z-bar, etc) I assumed it would fit very nicely.  I got it all bolted in with no issues, and then checked under the car.  One of the tubes was laying against my torsion bar, for about a 2"-3" length.  So, I removed the header, heated up the tube, locally dented it in, and re-installed it.

I'm very glad that no else has had similar problems, but I honestly do not think their headers are worth $650 for uncoated finish.  Quality vs cost, after last night, is down to around $200 in my book...  I also have new motor mounts, checked the location of the engine in the car side to side (within 1/4").  I don't see any evidence that the car unibody is 'tweaked' or was involved in an accident.  I put the headers in by myself (didn't pay a shop to do it), so I know exactly what issues I encountered!

I just don't believe the price of their headers is justified, based on their lack of proper fitment.  I'm glad I didn't buy the more expensive ceramic coated ones, because I would have had to dent those too.

But, they're in now, one more step closer to first fire!
Mike

[BSB67]

I posted a few weeks ago, about trying to install a set of Hedman Hedders on my '68 Charger 440, 4 speed.  Those headers would not fit, and no amount of local 'denting' and 'clearancing' was going to make them fit either.  I had used Hedman's on other vehicles I own, and was satisfied with their level of quality vs cost.  They just didn't work on the Charger, and worse, talking to Hedman yeilded no results either.

So, I did a bunch of research, and it seemed TTI, Doug Thorley or Schumacher was the way to go, for at least double the price of the Hedmans!  And, if I wanted a fancy coating, would be even more money.  And, to have the fancy coating, you should do the engine break-in using an old set of headers, or stock exhaust manifolds, as recommended by those companies.  I have no old headers or manifolds.  So, I elected to buy the 1 3/4" dia headers, with no coating of any kind, from TTI.  I chose the diameter based on two things:  my motor is fairly stock (cam, aluminum intake, big carb, electronic ignition, basically), and I felt the smaller tube diameter would give me a little more clearance around things like the starter (which is where I had all of my problems with the Hedman's - the starter wouldn't fit).

Well, I installed the driver side header last night, and the number one tube impacts my Powermaster 9300 mini starter.  So I pulled the header out, and installed a stock starter, and the number three tube hits that.  Since the headers are non-returnable (says so on the web site), I went ahead and dented my over $700 headers to fit the mini-starter.  I was pissed.  For the cost of these headers, they should fit, period.  If they interfered with a torsion bar, or steering box, or some other area where there is the possiblity of variableness from car to car, then I could understand some slight denting, possibly.  These headers interfered with the two most popular styles of starters out there!  And those dimensions do not vary from car to car.  If I had bought the even more expensive headers with the fancy coating, I would've been even more pissed.

I am not satisfied with the level of quality vs cost of TTI's product.  They fit about as well as $300 header would have.  That's my  opinion...  If I had known how much of a headache headers were going to be, I would have started looking for a good set of stock cast iron high flow exhaust manifolds...

I'm glad I have no desire to go fast enough to need headers and a rollbar.

[Kern Dog]

Paying the big money for TTI or Dougs DOES feel like a culo rape. The only reason that I bought mine is because I had some extra money and a total lack of patience.

[Patronus]

I only paid $250 for mine, no hammer required.

[Charger-Bodie]

Ive installed TTI headers on many 440 383 and HEMI cars and have never needed to ding anything.

[MxRacer855]

Hey guys, I'm ready to purchase some headers for my '68 Charger that was originally a 383 car but now has a 440 in it. I was going to go with the tti ones until I saw this pop up Immediately on Google!

I currently have stock cast iron exhaust manifolds on my 440 right now. I've always wanted headers for the looks, sound, and of course... the power gain they put out.

So my question to all of you after reading this is... WHICH HEADERS WILL GIVE ME THE LEAST PROBLEMS WITH FITTING!?

Thanks,
-Jeff

[Ghoste]

My money is still on TTI.

[tan top]

My money is still on TTI.

 

have heard  the cheapest headman headers fit good  in a  second generation   with a 440 & power steering , but have  no first hand experience

[1974dodgecharger]

I have hoookers competition in my 383 and spark plug 8 and I think another one I had to buy a spark plug adapter header kit (15 bucks) to get them out and in without breaking them.  NO big deal, but what hurts is the starter.  I replaed the starter and it was tetris for 2 hours getting it out then putting it in was another 1 or 2 cause I forgot how I got it.  Then my passenger side header hits my tranny a tad so you can hear it 'ting' if you concentrate on it over the engine.  If I ever want them out of the car I need to cut them out or take the engine out.

Overall great sounding headers as for HP/TQ gains I cant tell ya..

[Fred]

My money is still on TTI.

So is mine. I've got no complaints.

[myk]

There's an overwhelming amount of good press for TTi.  Now, I'm not doubting people with fitment issues but I have to ask: what variables can come into play on a car that would cause it to have fitment issues that other owners of similar cars and setups are not experiencing? 

[A383Wing]

I for one am not a fan of headers....I have heard more bad things about TTI's headers in the last few years from various people on this & other forums as well

I was looking at Schumaker's Tri-Y headers a while back when we were putting the Daytona together...seems they had all the "issues" covered with fitment...but I could not justify the $600 for them, so I stayed with HP manifolds

My 

[1974dodgecharger]

I for one am not a fan of headers....I have heard more bad things about TTI's headers in the last few years from various people on this & other forums as well

I was looking at Schumaker's Tri-Y headers a while back when we were putting the Daytona together...seems they had all the "issues" covered with fitment...but I could not justify the $600 for them, so I stayed with HP manifolds

My 

I think it swings both ways tti one month and then hoockers the next depends on when the thread starts.  I heard guys say no issues with hookers, no starter issues, no nothing then another month later someone saids they have this issue on this specific header etc...

[myk]

And again I have to wonder how same cars with similar setups have different results with header fitment...

[JB400]

40 years difference between quality control definitions.  What was good enough then isn't good enough now.

[Fred]

And again I have to wonder how same cars with similar setups have different results with header fitment...

Are you getting a head ache myk? 

[Cooter]

And again I have to wonder how same cars with similar setups have different results with header fitment...

As I stated almost three years ago, headers rarely fit perfect. I think its not the quality so much as the expectations of the consumer.
If more people had to realize that some modding will be needed when you take a car that has most likely been crashed a time or two, had its frame rails tweaked, etc. And headers are made on a jig. NOT CUSTOM TO YOUR CAR..
There are places that will do that for around $3000...Kooks comes to mind.
I don't expect $250.00 headers to fit , but am surprized when they do. If they don't fit, I send them back and try someone else's brand..

[Ghoste]

I think you guys have nailed it.  Headers rarely fit perfect but as time moves we seem to think they should whereas back when these cars were new, chopping up the inner fenders for fenderwell headers was acceptable.

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

I have hooker super comps 1 7/8 on a 68 charger 383. I had no fitment problems with the torsion bars, mini starter or steering linkage.

[Ghoste]

I've found the 383 about the easiest to fit. 

[myk]

And again I have to wonder how same cars with similar setups have different results with header fitment...

Are you getting a head ache myk?  

Lol, no bigger or different of a headache than the one that normally comes with this car.  It's all good though.

And again I have to wonder how same cars with similar setups have different results with header fitment...

As I stated almost three years ago, headers rarely fit perfect. I think its not the quality so much as the expectations of the consumer.
If more people had to realize that some modding will be needed when you take a car that has most likely been crashed a time or two, had its frame rails tweaked, etc. And headers are made on a jig. NOT CUSTOM TO YOUR CAR..
There are places that will do that for around $3000...Kooks comes to mind.
I don't expect $250.00 headers to fit , but am surprized when they do. If they don't fit, I send them back and try someone else's brand..

Great.  I wonder if that mini-DOH jump I pulled years ago will affect header fitment on my car.  Maybe I'll just get some HP manifolds...

[Al]

I installed  TTI headers on my 383 some years ago. Once I replaced the old engine mounts by new ones, the headers fitted like a glove. Ok driver side is a tight fit with the stock starter but otherwise no problem.

Unfortunately after 2 years the once brilliant chrome has become quite dull.

[myk]

No ceramic coating, right?

[Chargen69]

I put headman elites on my 383, we only had to dent the tube beside the starter

[mopar0166]

I have hooker comps and they fit tight but are great.  no headers in my opinion are designed to just slip in and out.  it takes work but the work is well worth it

[Ghoste]

Exactly, its a case of form follows function and their function is to route spent gases in the most efficient manner.

[myk]

I put headman elites on my 383, we only had to dent the tube beside the starter

How's your spark plug and wire clearance?

[Kern Dog]

It does piss a person off to spend big $$$ and still have to fight to get the pipes to fit.
If Ma Mopar gave a crap about anyone other than their people on the assembly lines, they wouldn't have put the starter on the left side to share space with the trans linkage, ATF lines, clutch linkage, steeering box, etc. Fitting headers in our cars has never been easy. The 426 HEMI had the advantage of having exhaust ports that did NOT exit parallel to the ground.
It has been discussed and agreed that these cars had a degree of "slop-factor" whan they were new and that tolerances were pretty wide. Ever see the tight crimp on a V8 67-76 A body LH down pipe near the T bar?
I am usually an optimist, but I am slowly becoming a realist. I used to have a rosy picture of how fast I can do something or how easy it will be, but often times that bites me in the ass. I get pissed off when I run into problems that my"positive outlook" never expected. Headers are now included in that list. If they fit without clearancing, I'll chalk that up with hitting a series of green lights on the road....Not something very common, but glad to see it when it happens!

[Ghoste]

It could be worse, try installing a set in a Cobra Jet Ford or a Corvette sometime.

[Kern Dog]

Another thing just occurred to me:
Over the Summer 2013 I decided to replace the K member in the Charger. I had another one from a 70 Belvedere that has been cleaned, welded the seams, added gussets to the steering box mount and a small skidplate added. After installation, the headers now bump against the steering box a bit. Before I had plenty of room.
So here we have 2 interchangeable k members that resulted in different fitment. Today I took the grinder to the raised parts on the steering chuck and tapped dents into the headers. This was the first dimpling I've had to do to my TTI headers. My car was never in a serious wreck, never had any rust up front and my motor mounts are still good.

[myk]

Talk about an eye-opener; I thought that TTi's and their high price made one immune to fitment headaches...so much for that!

[Ghoste]

Was it the headers though or the changes brought on by a difference in stacked tolerances when the K-frame was swapped out?
I think the TTI's are a very high quality item and they make headers exclusively for Chrysler products as opposed to their competitors who try to make soemthing for everyone and many of their Mopar ones are almost like a universal fit.  Yes, TTI are expensive and they will fit likely better than anything else.  Expecting drop in ease and perfection in every install is to not understand the nature of headers in the first place IMO.

[Chargen69]

I put headman elites on my 383, we only had to dent the tube beside the starter

How's your spark plug and wire clearance?

pretty good, we no real problem putting in the plugs, connectors we used angled connectors brought up from the bottom

[MxRacer855]

I think I'm going to go with the tti headers still. I don't have power steering and a small starter so I don't think I should have that big of a problem with fitment...

[myk]

Well, you might NEED a mini-starter with the headers, though.  However like you, I think I'm still going to give headers a try; TTi or maybe Doug's...

[Ghoste]

You'll be fine.  We ran headers for decades before mini starters were invented and we managed.

[myk]

Time to learn something again.  I thought a mini-starter was required due to fitment and survival potential for the starter itself?

My fear is that the mini-starter will not last as long as it should because that's usually my luck with those sorts of components.  What I'll do is mount the mini-starter first, get some running time on it so as to break it in, then pull it out and re-install with the the headers as a pair...

[Ghoste]

Those were two of the drawbacks the TTI's are supposed to alleviate that but in some cases they clearly don't (hence this whole thread).  I've had headers that burned out starters on me all the time and I've had them that didn't touch.  No doubt some of that stacked tolerance thing comes into play with their manufacture as well.  If you already have a mini starter, you're golden, if you don't, well, if it were me personally I'd try it first.  But I came of age when we thought nothing of having to ding headers because almost everyone had to sooner or later.
So, I would think depending on past experiences you will find some who say it can only be done with a ministarter and some who say not a big deal.
Without question the ministarter makes a big difference.

[myk]

Well I've always wanted a mini-starter; any excuse to shave pounds off of this piggy...

[Ghoste]

Ah, another advantage. 

[Chargen69]

Time to learn something again.  I thought a mini-starter was required due to fitment and survival potential for the starter itself?

My fear is that the mini-starter will not last as long as it should because that's usually my luck with those sorts of components.  What I'll do is mount the mini-starter first, get some running time on it so as to break it in, then pull it out and re-install with the the headers as a pair...

we actually had to ding the crap out of the pipe that went around my mini starter, so they dont solve everything, but i wouldnt want to start my motor with a stock one, feels like a time bomb waiting to make me take the header off

[Ghoste]

I have over fifteen years on the starter and headers currently in mine.  Its the stock starter.

[myk]

The headers don't touch the starter?

[Ghoste]

Nope.  Just a cheap set of Hedman's with power steering and a 383.

[myk]

440 should be the same, correct? 

[Ghoste]

No because the 440 is wider at the top the heads are moved out so the headers run in a slightly different space than they do on the 383.  That said I've been one of the lucky ones with 440's as well when it comes to burning out starters.
In fact the only things I've ever had a problem with headers and starters interfering were smallblock equipped.