The Goodmark Camaro "rolller"

[Mike DC]

           
The Goodmark & Dynacorn reproduction unibodies have arguably opened a new can of worms as far as legally registering a car.  There have always been provisions in the state laws for "home-brewed" cars of various kinds.  But they were always treated as one-offs.  Whereas now they're selling a new example of an existing outdated production car.  The whole things bears some legal adjustments. 


One a side note - the fact that Goodmark is now a second producer of repro unibodies is a good sign IMHO.  It suggests that these reproductions really are financially viable enterprises.  Which signals that we're more likely to continue to branch out into doing more types of car models.   

[Old Moparz]

The term "rebody" can mean several things, but the negative definition prevails in most cases. Taking a VIN tag & body numbers from one car that is rare, & rotted beyond feasibly restoring, & placing them on a clean car of a less desirable model. A good example is when someone finds a rotted Hemi car with tags, & then gets a 6 cyl. car of the same body style to put the Hemi tags on.

Maybe the technical difference of using a 6cyl. donor & an aftermarket body shell is minimal, but the legality of doing it isn't. The aftermarket shell is seen as a replacement part. I'm still in favor of a DMV designation on the VIN tag showing a replacement body, but I seriously doubt any agency is going to start campaigning new guidelines to do it when some of these agencies can barely survive budget cuts.

[Ghoste]

My own opinion is that if you change the body, then it's been rebodied.  Whether you take a 6cyl "donor" or a engineless reproduction body purchased from whomever the fact remains that the VIN numbers are the remaining original part and the rest of the car is a new body.  Hence rebody. 

[Drache]

My own opinion is that if you change the body, then it's been rebodied.  Whether you take a 6cyl "donor" or a engineless reproduction body purchased from whomever the fact remains that the VIN numbers are the remaining original part and the rest of the car is a new body.  Hence rebody. 

So what is the most major downside to something like this? The worst I see is someone calling a car 100% numbers matching. In fact that seems to me to be the only down side of a rebody. 

[Ghoste]

Exactly.  The amount of fraud in the collector car hobby is staggering as it is and it keeps getting easier.

[Drache]

Exactly.  The amount of fraud in the collector car hobby is staggering as it is and it keeps getting easier.

Personally I'd have no problem buying a rebody car. To me it would be no different than the original except the body work is missing a couple stampings of numbers. Granted Ive never worried too much about numbers matching myself 

[Ghoste]

Is that assuming you know up front you are buying a rebody and are paying accordingly or would it still apply if you decided to pony up the big dollars and buy something rare and valuable only to find out later that you really just paid big dollars for the serial number and the rest of your purchase was just a "recreation"?

[Drache]

Is that assuming you know up front you are buying a rebody and are paying accordingly or would it still apply if you decided to pony up the big dollars and buy something rare and valuable only to find out later that you really just paid big dollars for the serial number and the rest of your purchase was just a "recreation"?

Well that is the big thing though. I don't buy cars as investments, I buy them for what they are and buy them to use as they are.

BUT if I was buying an ultra rare car as a sort of investment then yes a rebody would matter but only due to it mattering to someone else when I go to sell it.

PERSONALLY though I see no different than buying a Charger shell from one of these companies and then building it to be the way I want, than a Charger with an original body but the original engine and transmission have long been changed to something totally different.

[bull]

Well that is the big thing though. I don't buy cars as investments, I buy them for what they are and buy them to use as they are.

BUT if I was buying an ultra rare car as a sort of investment then yes a rebody would matter but only due to it mattering to someone else when I go to sell it.

Everyone who knows cars would treat an original Hemi Charger differently than they would a 318 Charger that got a Hemi dropped in it. No matter why they bought it.

[Old Moparz]

Is that assuming you know up front you are buying a rebody and are paying accordingly or would it still apply if you decided to pony up the big dollars and buy something rare and valuable only to find out later that you really just paid big dollars for the serial number and the rest of your purchase was just a "recreation"?

Well that is the big thing though. I don't buy cars as investments, I buy them for what they are and buy them to use as they are.

BUT if I was buying an ultra rare car as a sort of investment then yes a rebody would matter but only due to it mattering to someone else when I go to sell it.

PERSONALLY though I see no different than buying a Charger shell from one of these companies and then building it to be the way I want, than a Charger with an original body but the original engine and transmission have long been changed to something totally different.

Even though you say you don't buy cars as investments, you still admit that the value of the car plays an important part of your decision making. This is why people swap tags, the financial benefit behind doing so is a no brainer if you toss away the ethics. I'm not making fun or criticizing you. I'll admit that I also consider the overall cost of a restoration & what it's worth done before I buy a car, or do something to a car. You have to. If you don't & some financial disaster ever arises, you will lose a ton of money in a hurry.

Everyone who knows cars would treat an original Hemi Charger differently than they would a 318 Charger that got a Hemi dropped in it. No matter why they bought it.

Very true. My Scamp is more valuable to me than what the market will ever bring if I sold it. When I initially got estimates in the early 90's to get the minor rust fixed & have it repainted, the estimates were higher than what the car was worth. I had even found a $1500 pair of NOS quarters for it, but passed on them & bought a pair of partial panels for $250. If this car had been a Dart GT convertible with a big block, I would easily be able to justify the NOS panels.

This is why I feel that a repro body is a good idea. It may be an expensive initial investment, but it gives people the opportunity to get the car they always wanted. Will most people be able to get one? Of course not, the $12K to $20K prices we see for bodies will not be affordable to most, including myself. I would seriously consider one if it were in my budget, Much like the MARS Charger convertible. I have no problem at all with owning a car that looks like Charger convertible, but has a VIN tag that says it's legally a Coronet convertible.

[BIGBLCK11]

 
This whole problem is rooted in the fact that the old car hobby is too obsessed with VINs.    

I totally agree with this.

Everyone who knows cars would treat an original Hemi Charger differently than they would a 318 Charger that got a Hemi dropped in it. No matter why they bought it.

Yes they would, but should they?  Everything 'Old Moparz' said above is also right on.  Yes, you have to consider the originality and what it was ordered with according to the VIN, due to the value the market places on these cars and it is just financially smart.  Especially, when a hemi is in the mix.

This brings me to the reason I touched on clones/replicas similar to a re-body before, pertaining to value.

Chargers at their core are all the SAME.  The differences are mainly bolt-on options/upgrades/trim, minus some of the structural enhancements for hemi cars.  Say you have a well-optioned car with a numbers matching drivetrain and such, but 80-90% of the metal was replaced, yet it is not technically a re-body.  You have a top-notch restoration done (disregard the cost of that for now).  Then, you have an all original base model, needs no metal.  We will say it has been restored top-notch and not in original paint/survivor status.  The restoration included adding every option that the well-optioned car has, via nos or near mint original parts.  The car that was 'ordered/produced' with those options will be valued at more than the second car, which would be deemed a clone or replica.  Yet, the clone has all the original core metal, all original parts meant to be on a car with those options, produced in same factory back then, just assembled 40 some years later.  To me, the 'clone' is way more original(compilation of parts) and valuable.  The only cars IMO that could qualify for the high value and status are true survivors that are all original and second would be the same that was restored with minimal repairs.  Since, I have this view, I don't understand the comments I see such as, it is only a 318 car or only a base model.  It depends on the condition of the said car to me, MaximumRecoil's R/T 4-spd being the most recent example(nothing personal).  It will have require a large number of replacement parts.  Yet, once completed correctly, it would be considered rare and valuable.  It does not justify the willingness to alter a clean base model, that could be a more original(parts) R/T than the reconstructed original(as ordered)one.

I hope that made some sense, as to what I was trying to say.  This is just for the sake of discussion, I realize the motivation that money/market value adds to people's actions and decisions. 

[Ghoste]

Well that is the big thing though. I don't buy cars as investments, I buy them for what they are and buy them to use as they are.

BUT if I was buying an ultra rare car as a sort of investment then yes a rebody would matter but only due to it mattering to someone else when I go to sell it.

Everyone who knows cars would treat an original Hemi Charger differently than they would a 318 Charger that got a Hemi dropped in it. No matter why they bought it.

Would they?  Like the people who have been trading around that fake Bobby Allsion Daytona for the last couple of years?

[Back N Black]

OK, lets say the charger I'm restoring required the following parts from AMD. Is it a re-body?

New fenders
New hood
New doors
New rad support
New front valance
new complete floors
new roof
New Dutchman panel
New trunk lid
New trunk floor and extension
New Wheel wells
New Tail panel
New rear valance
New Bumpers
New quarter panels
All new interior
New Engine
New Transmission
New rear diff.
Complete brakes
Complete suspension
** Also i have to cut the rad support and trunk lip numbers and graft it on the new sheet metal.

[Old Moparz]

OK, lets say the charger I'm restoring required the following parts from AMD. Is it a re-body?

New fenders
New hood
New doors
New rad support
New front valance
new complete floors
new roof
New Dutchman panel
New trunk lid
New trunk floor and extension
New Wheel wells
New Tail panel
New rear valance
New Bumpers
New quarter panels
All new interior
New Engine
New Transmission
New rear diff.
Complete brakes
Complete suspension
** Also i have to cut the rad support and trunk lip numbers and graft it on the new sheet metal.

No, it's just a basket cased, money pit. 

[BIGBLCK11]

OK, lets say the charger I'm restoring required the following parts from AMD. Is it a re-body?

New fenders
New hood......

I woud say technically and legally it is not a re-body.  You are using the original cowl w/vin, inner fender wells, chunks of the unibody and frame. But, the rest of the car isn't really original anymore, so is it really much different than if Goodmark offered the whole body?  

It goes back to value and what the car is presented as actually being or sold off as.  Don't get me wrong.  There is still a TON of value in the work a quality restore would take to put that back together.

[moparstuart]

rebody just like the XP hemi charger

[Ghoste]

Rebody, recreation, whatever.  It's too far gone to be a restoration in my opinion.

[Back N Black]

rebody just like the XP hemi charger

Actually, that was the car i was referring .

[Mike DC]

          
The hobby allows so much restoration work these days . . . I think VINs at this point are mainly a rulebook for what can & cannot exist in collector terms.  

If you have a Hemi Charger with an original Hemi Charger VIN, does this mean it's an original car?  Not necessarily.  It could be 80% repro and donor car pieces and still qualify as the same car under law.  

I think what that VIN buys you is the right to say that the car DID once exist from the factory, and there is no other car out there using its identity today.  If there were 500 Hemi Chargers built that year then there can't be more than 500 left today.  You've definitely got one of those 500 cars in this sense, regardless of whether or not it's very much of the original car anymore sitting in your driveway.  You paid for the right to call it that particular car.  You've bought out anyone else's right to put together a car with that identity even if they might have major pieces of the same original car in their resto project.  

[Brock Lee]

I feel the larger issue is like any other hobby the people involved have different goals, thus different viewpoints depending on their perspective. There are guys that do it as a status thing. These types pay very close attention to the rarity of their car, often breaking down known production to its absolute lowest point in an effort to project this image of insane rarity. No matter what it takes to get it to that point. They will pick apart other cars to maintain this superior status. They find whatever reasons suit the purpose here. More common production, quality of restoration, condition, or amount of replaced parts, anything they can throw at it. The prospect of resurrected cars scares the crap out of them because it creates more competition..more rare cars in existence makes their cars less special, more supply, which can hurt value and will definitely hurt the status appeal.

Some guys don't care. The car is a source of enjoyment, not an investment. They don't really care about rarity, numbers, or even originality. They dig having their dream car and just want to have fun. They tend to appreciate all of the cars, no matter what condition, rarity, or level of restoration has been done. And there are many that fall somewhere in between these 2 camps.

I know guys in this hobby that hate R/T clones. I have heard numerous times "I have a real R/T and most people don't know to look at the VIN. Them coming to a show and seeing 6 R/T's and mine is the only real one makes it look less special". Oh boo hoo.