The Goodmark Camaro "rolller"

[Ghoste]

I believe this came up as a point in another thread but I wanted to bring it up on it's own.  We have debated a lot lately about rebodying cars and vin swapping and what it means with the release of complete bodies from companies like Goodmark and Dynacorn.  Well here is Goodmark's offering in the complete body market.  You'll note that it comes with an original vin so you don't have to register it as a kit car.  How do they do this, you might ask?  Simple, they just get the vin and title from an exisitng car and stick it on the repro shell.

http://www.goodmarkindustries.com/roller.cfm

I know there are many here who applaud such an action and there are many here who do not.  There is no secret about my being on the side opposed to vin swappping, rebodying, complete metal exchange or whatever you want to call it.  I wonder if you are free to create your own "original" options list after getting your vin equipped 68 Camaro?  The fact that it includes the original cars cowl and A pillars does not constitute a restoration in my opinion, it is just another clone and potentially not a very accurate one.

[440]

I thought there was talk a few years ago about complete Charger bodies that would have been manufactured in Canada.... I'm pretty sure this hasn't happened yet but sure there was talk of it.

$19,900 is probably cheaper then some of the metal work that would be required for some cars, although the originality and authenticity of the car would be compromised in my opinion. I'm sure the rarer cars would be quite a bit dearer though. Would be interesting to see a price list

[tan top]

    think this is great for the hobby  , but on the other hand  !!  its saying rebodies are ok  



i have mentioned this before sometime ago !!  hypothetically speaking , say Joe rolled his brand new  69 hemi charger  two miles down the street after picking it up from the dealer  !!!!     insurance says  ok  we will  pay  to  re shell it ( new body from chrysler )  this happened in  69 ,  like they do today if a car is new enough !!  
so back to said 69 charger  J code
 Joe picks his re shelled 69 charger up &  rumbles off into the sunset  , 40 years later that car is still alive !    what is it an original  or a rebody  yeah i know it was a  new oem bodyshell  ,    
 :
i know its opening a can of worms  but if its a really rare model & its completely wrecked  burnt up  , may be , but should be re-shelled & rebuilt with a new body as long as its made clear what it is maybe !!  
but not stamping any numbers   , i  don't know what i'm really trying to say   , but , original is original at the end of the day

[440]

I think it's good for the hobby but also think they should be kept separate from original cars. Perhaps an approved stamp on the original VIN to signify that it was re bodied. No matter what all of the cars will at the very best be clones.

     

[Ghoste]

What if Joe rolled his new 69 Hemi Charger and the insurance company just peeled off the numbers and stuck them on a different car?  Actually thats a bad example because Joe wouldn't care, he'd still have his new car.  Remember this isn't just an outer sheet metal replacement, all of the inner stuff and floors and framing members.  All of it but the cowl and A pillar.

[PocketThunder]

Ghoste i'm with you, i'd say give the new Camero a new VIN number and leave the old ones on the old car.   

[440]

I agree with the new Vin as well... The only problem with new a new vin is a whole new set of problems trying to register a car, especially difficult in emission controlled states... I think if a car is way too far gone to save a rebody is acceptable as long as there was some way to differentiate it from original cars. The only problem is there is no way to govern this, and technically it's no different if Joe re bodied it himself.

My car could possibly be re bodied but I wouldn't know, as well as most of our cars that weren't stripped back to bare metal are all at risk of having been re bodied.

[TruckDriver]

I was thinking, is it possable they are doing what Factory 5 does with it's Cobra's? Where they got written permission from Carrol Shelby to use a continuation serial number on the cars, making them basically a "new" car. I know in the '80's, Diamond REO trucks did that as White trucks stopped making them in the mid 1970's. But in the '80's, a new owner bought them, and started rebuilding them with a continuation serial number for about 10 years. What I'm saying is, maybe they have permission from GM to reproduce the cars using a new vin number. 

[Drache]

Ive seen both sides of the discussion and can understand both.

The biggest arguement for stuff like this is what is the difference between original sheet metal or replacements? If the original VIN and fender tag from a destroyed car go into the new car along with the exact same options that it's supposed to have then what is the big deal?

*Im just playing devil's advocate so don't beat me  *

I don't know, it's a giant moral discussion and that both sides have very good arguements.

[bull]

I think it's wrong and potentially criminal to produce these as unique cars. The VINs and/or titles should be branded somehow.

[Drache]

Here's a question, Ive seen some MASSIVE restorations done on this site, so at what point does a restoration become a "rebody" in someone's eyes? 

[Old Moparz]

I believe this came up as a point in another thread but I wanted to bring it up on it's own.  We have debated a lot lately about rebodying cars and vin swapping and what it means with the release of complete bodies from companies like Goodmark and Dynacorn.  Well here is Goodmark's offering in the complete body market.  You'll note that it comes with an original vin so you don't have to register it as a kit car.  How do they do this, you might ask?  Simple, they just get the vin and title from an exisitng car and stick it on the repro shell.

http://www.goodmarkindustries.com/roller.cfm

I know there are many here who applaud such an action and there are many here who do not.  There is no secret about my being on the side opposed to vin swappping, rebodying, complete metal exchange or whatever you want to call it.  I wonder if you are free to create your own "original" options list after getting your vin equipped 68 Camaro?  The fact that it includes the original cars cowl and A pillars does not constitute a restoration in my opinion, it is just another clone and potentially not a very accurate one.

It appears to be a gray area to me. I have stated many times before that I hate the VIN swapping (rebody) going on, but I do like that the old cars are reproduced as a full body & ready to go. There are a lot of people in the hobby that don't have the skill it takes to rebuild a rot box, including me. The affordable cars are in small numbers & still need a lot of work due to botched restorations, quickie jobs just to resell, vehicle age, owners having no funds for repairs & also neglect. By having a brand new version of the car you had always wanted can save time, aggravation & money.

The problem with people faking rare cars starts with greed. There are some people who can be considered very passionate of the car hobby & want everything saved, or the ones who say they will never sell, but even if their intentions are good, the next owner, & there will be a next owner whether you think so or not, may be simply looking to rip someone off. The vehicle can be sold by the honest seller with full disclosure that it was rebuilt, or a new repro body, or even that things were changed, but the next seller could be a thief.

Maybe a lot of the legal issues can be corrected if the DMV guidelines didn't vary from one state to another so much. One state won't allow a salvaged car to ever be on the road again, but others don't care. Some states have titles, some don't. Some states make it so difficult to do a DMV transaction that you want to strangle the clerk while others will push the papers through as fast as ordering a happy meal. If all the states had the exact same policy, forms, rules & had data bases that were shared among each state, I bet this would correct many issues automatically.

I never had a problem with the idea of a state issued VIN tag. As long as the car was 100% legal, I would be content with a strange looking tag on the dash. The car itself, is what it is & that won't ever change. A 1969 Charger with a Hemi can still be a 1969 Charger with a Hemi regardless of what the tag on the dash says it is & whether it was put there by Chrysler or the state.

As far as the repro body, what's wrong with the idea of something like having the state DMV add a digit or a symbol to the original tag?

[bull]

Here's a question, Ive seen some MASSIVE restorations done on this site, so at what point does a restoration become a "rebody" in someone's eyes?  

A lot depends on whether the buyer cares or not. However, as it is right now, as long as the car retains all of its original factory number stampings it is not a rebody. You can replace everything but those numbers and it still is not technically considered a rebody.

I had a friend who bought an original 70 Cuda 440/6 pack/four speed Shaker hood car that had no engine. He restored the car and found a date-correct 440, milled the number pad and stamped the number as if it were a numbers-matching engine. He was ok with the ethics of this because he was honest about what he had done with the buyer when it came time to sell and he and the buyer valued it as a non-numbers Cuda. To that I asked what about the ethics of the guy you just sold it to? Or the guy after that? Or the one after that? He didn't have a good answer to those questions but I guess he figured that since HE was honest that he did nothing wrong. I disagree with that and always will but now the car is out there somewhere making the rounds, most likely as the genuine article.

[Old Moparz]

Here's a question, Ive seen some MASSIVE restorations done on this site, so at what point does a restoration become a "rebody" in someone's eyes?  

A lot depends on whether the buyer cares or not. However, as it is right now, as long as the car retains all of its original factory number stampings it is not a rebody. You can replace everything but those numbers and it still is not technically considered a rebody.

I had a friend who bought an original 70 Cuda 440/6 pack/four speed Shaker hood car that had no engine. He restored the car and found a date-correct 440, milled the number pad and stamped the number as if it were a numbers-matching engine. He was ok with the ethics of this because he was honest about what he had done with the buyer when it came time to sell and he and the buyer valued it as a non-numbers Cuda. To that I asked what about the ethics of the guy you just sold it to? Or the guy after that? Or the one after that? He didn't have a good answer to those questions but I guess he figured that since HE was honest that he did nothing wrong. I disagree with that and always will but now the car is out there somewhere making the rounds, most likely as the genuine article.

I wonder what the liability would be for your friend if the guy he sold it to attempted to sell it off as a numbers matching car to another buyer who figured out it wasn't & claimed fraud? The guy your friend sold it to would probably point the finger at your friend & say he didn't do it or know it. Not the easiest thing to prove, & maybe not as bad as a VIN tag swap, but it's still deceit.

[bull]

Good question. I don't know if there would be any liability on his part but I think if I were to do something like that (which I wouldn't) I would be leaving myself some sort of full disclosure paper trail so as to avoid the potential for fraud charges. The part I didn't understand is why stamp it in the first place if you're telling everyone it's not the numbers engine? He obviously didn't care if he bought it that way, he knew what it was and readily admitted it so what's the point?

[Drache]

Good question. I don't know if there would be any liability on his part but I think if I were to do something like that (which I wouldn't) I would be leaving myself some sort of full disclosure paper trail so as to avoid the potential for fraud charges. The part I didn't understand is why stamp it in the first place if you're telling everyone it's not the numbers engine? He obviously didn't care if he bought it that way, he knew what it was and readily admitted it so what's the point?

See that might be a bit above and beyond.

What Im more thinking is say you have your very first Charger purchased for you by your dad or something very sentimental. You've stripped it down to the shell and the fendertag is off and the vin is on the dash in storage. Your shop catches fire and the shell is reduced to say a pile of molten metal.

Now you have everything for the car that you had originally but isn't numbers matching anyways. A company comes out with a Charger shell. All you need to do is throw everything from your charger into that shell an you'd have a complete car.

Do you consider putting your fendertag and vin into that car to be as close to your old car as possible or just realize your car is gone and register the car as a kit car or something like that?

[bull]

In that case the car is gone and you're left with parts. Lying to yourself and others doesn't make it any more legit. Even if you were able to convince the whole world that the car is the original car you would still know that it isn't. It reminds me of the movie "City Slickers" where they debate the topic of adultery.

[Drache]

In that case the car is gone and you're left with parts. Lying to yourself and others doesn't make it any more legit.

Yes but IF the person who did the rebody was actually lying about it to people.

[440]

The person who re bodied it would know but if they didn't care the new owner wouldn't know as mentioned above. The potential risk of clones being passed off as genuine is too great in my opinion. Luckily (if you could call it that for lack of a better term) if Draches scenario came true the radiator support and trunk rail stampings would be lost and hopefully that would raise some questions, although, again it doesn't stop someone for trying to re stamp the new metal.

I wonder if the Goodmark Camaro would have all of the body stampings or only the VIN....

[pipeliner]

Thats all we need,more Camaros on the road 

[BIGBLCK11]

Here's a question, Ive seen some MASSIVE restorations done on this site, so at what point does a restoration become a "rebody" in someone's eyes?  

A lot depends on whether the buyer cares or not. However, as it is right now, as long as the car retains all of its original factory number stampings it is not a rebody. You can replace everything but those numbers and it still is not technically considered a rebody.

I agree, not technically a rebody.  But, if the outer shell and numerous other parts have been pretty much replaced, IMO it makes the car a lot less valuable.  Regardless of what the numbers, vin or fender tag says.  Similar to a rebody, it is no longer original.  It is more like a clone, which may be a topic for a whole other thread.  Clones/replicas are not always held in the highest regard around here. 

[bull]

Thats all we need,more Camaros on the road  

I know you're being sarcastic but you make a good point. The main reason for doing this, I would think, is because muscle cars are rare yet still very desireable. Now I know that the first gen Camaro is less common than the Accord and Camry but in the grand scheme of things there are several examples of muscle cars that would probably be just as popular but much less common. Yes, repro Camaro parts are everywhere but any more I would say you can probably get as much stuff for a 68 Charger as you can a 68 Camaro. The stuff may not be as inexpensive but it is plentiful. So assuming Goodmark is remaking these cars because they are rare, why make one of the most common rare cars? It's not like they're all that difficult to find, and why spend $19k on a bare roller when you can get a very nice driver for less?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-coupe-1968-camaro-350-4-speed-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem25627ee728QQitemZ160566273832QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

[Mike DC]

   

This whole problem is rooted in the fact that the old car hobby is too obsessed with VINs.  

IMHO a car "survives" when the majority of the original car is still there.  A 4000-lb car's "survival" doesn't depend on it getting 3000 pounds worth of changed parts.  Most restorations are nice but they aren't really the same car anymore.  We're always splitting hairs trying to decide which parts of the car constitute rebodying and which don't.    

[Ghoste]

I'm just curious, if it technically isn't a rebody to replace the entire body except for the minimal parts that contain tiny stamped numbers, then technically just what is it?

[tan top]

I'm just curious, if it technically isn't a rebody to replace the entire body except for the minimal parts that contain tiny stamped numbers, then technically just what is it?

to me thats a re-body    ........