My basket case R/T

[Hissing Cobra]

The goalpost seems to be constantly shifting here. As I said, the US Car Tool thing + the donor car in good shape was simply an example to refute the "$60K to look half decent claim".

You cannot refute the $60K to look half decent claim because that's what it's going to cost, regardless of if you did it yourself or if you hired someone else. I'll stick to my original estimate of $50K if you do everything by yourself and probably $75K if you hire someone else to do it for you.

In this case, he has a nice driver that would probably be in your $17-25k range (or less), he wouldn't have to add the drivetrain (because he already has it) and it would be an actual R/T, which carries some inherent value in its own right.

I'm sorry, but even if someone were to do this themselves, they will not be able to do it in the $17K-$25K range even if they had the drivetrain. Like I said before, there's at least $20K worth of bodywork and paint to do before you even get to the drivetrain and once you finish the body to show quality specs (to do otherwise would be ridiculous), there's no way that someone is going to install a used motor, transmission, or rearend without going through them. It just does not make sense! Don't forget that once you've got that body to show quality specs, you've now got to invest in rechroming everything and polishing the stainless steel trim, buying new emblems and decals, polishing the glass, etc..., otherwise they'll look like crap against the new paint.  Oh, and if you don't thing you won't have to restore the body to show quality specs, why go through all of that trouble to only make a "driver"?

After that you've got to deal with the entire suspension, (bushings, tie rods, ball joints), brake system (lines, rotors, drums, shoes, pads, master cylinder, brake booster, proportioning valve), cooling system (hoses, theromstat, radiator, fuel system (lines, gas tank, fuel pump), ignition system (wiring, coil, ignition box, distributor). From there, we now move into the interior and we all know what that entails.

Again, there's NO WAY that this car can be put together for $17K-$25K. Why? Because THIS CAR NEEDS EVERYTHING!

[MaximRecoil]

UH OH! Almost a GL, get ready for some comments.

Yeah, that wasn't my doing. As much as I love the General Lee (I grew up on the Dukes of Hazzard like most kids in the '80s did), I wouldn't want to drive around town in one, simply because I wouldn't want all the attention/foolishness that goes along with it. I can picture it now: people yelling "YEE HAW" when I drive by, or yelling, "Hey Bo, where's Luke and Daisy?", or asking about the horn, or wanting to race, or asking why the doors open, or wanting to take pictures, and so on.

I have nothing at all against people who own and drive General Lee replicas; it just isn't for me.

You cannot refute the $60K to look half decent claim because that's what it's going to cost, regardless of if you did it yourself or if you hired someone else. I'll stick to my original estimate of $50K if you do everything by yourself and probably $75K if you hire someone else to do it for you.

I already did refute it, and that stands until you refute the refutation.

I'm sorry, but even if someone were to do this themselves, they will not be able to do it in the $17K-$25K range even if they had the drivetrain. Like I said before, there's at least $20K worth of bodywork and paint to do before you even get to the drivetrain and once you finish the body to show quality specs (to do otherwise would be ridiculous),

What you deem ridiculous doesn't matter with regard to what is possible. There are no universal laws of nature which dictate that it needs $20K worth of bodywork and paint. If you remember right, it was you who used the term "looks half decent", which is a far cry from "show quality".

there's no way that someone is going to install a used motor, transmission, or rearend without going through them. It just does not make sense!

People do it all the time in daily drivers. They get an engine, or a transmission, or a rearend from a junk yard, install it, and drive down the road. Remember your "looks half decent" yardstick.

Don't forget that once you've got that body to show quality specs, you've now got to invest in rechroming everything and polishing the stainless steel trim, buying new emblems and decals, polishing the glass, etc..., otherwise they'll look like crap against the new paint.

Who said anything about "show quality specs"? You certainly didn't; not until just now anyway. See above.

Oh, and if you don't thing you won't have to restore the body to show quality specs, why go through all of that trouble to only make a "driver"?

To drive it (the intended purpose of a car).

After that you've got to deal with the entire suspension, (bushings, tie rods, ball joints), brake system (lines, rotors, drums, shoes, pads, master cylinder, brake booster, proportioning valve), cooling system (hoses, theromstat, radiator, fuel system (lines, gas tank, fuel pump), ignition system (wiring, coil, ignition box, distributor). From there, we now move into the interior and we all know what that entails.

Again, there's NO WAY that this car can be put together for $17K-$25K. Why? Because THIS CAR NEEDS EVERYTHING!

No, it doesn't need "everything". Plus, most of what it needs could be covered by buying a ~$15K car, as I mentioned in my example which refuted your claim. For that matter, you could buy a $30K donor car and still come in at well under your "$60K to look half decent" estimate.

By the way, if you had estimated $60K to get it to show quality specifications, I wouldn't have disputed that. In fact, I would consider that a very conservative estimate (depending on what level of show quality is being talked about).

[Brock Samson]

         

[MaximRecoil]

What is that animation in your signature line from? It cracks me up every time I see it. I'd like to hear the audio to it.

[Brock Samson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ffw-52hRk

It's from an Austrian fast food place commercial...   

[MaximRecoil]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ffw-52hRk

It's from an Austrian fast food place commercial...   

That's awesome. I doubt you'd ever see a commercial like that in the U.S. (or maybe you would; I haven't really watched TV in about 10 years so I don't know).

By the way, I was worried when I read "Austrian" that the commercial was going to be in German. 

[Brock Samson]

"Austrian" is an inside joke via the internets... No one even laughs at it anymore...   I remember the threads on /C where it started were pretty hilarious! I can't tell you any more then that, being sworn to secrecy...

seein' as your new 'n all -  I'll share one of my Favorite threads on this site with you... 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,67963.0.html

[MaximRecoil]

"Austrian" is an inside joke via the internets... No one even laughs at it anymore...  I remember the threads on /C where it started were pretty hilarious! I can't tell you any more then that, being sworn to secrecy...

I've seen it used as a joke in movies (one of the Dumb and Dumber movies comes to mind); but I didn't know if you were joking or if it was simply a typo.

[Hissing Cobra]

I already did refute it, and that stands until you refute the refutation.

Huh? What does this mean?

What you deem ridiculous doesn't matter with regard to what is possible. There are no universal laws of nature which dictate that it needs $20K worth of bodywork and paint. If you remember right, it was you who used the term "looks half decent", which is a far cry from "show quality".

I NEVER said anything about this car looking "Half decent". I was quoting YOU!

People do it all the time in daily drivers. They get an engine, or a transmission, or a rearend from a junk yard, install it, and drive down the road. Remember your "looks half decent" yardstick.

Totally different scenario! A daily driver is not a car that is 42 years old. Again, I never used the "Half decent" comment.

Who said anything about "show quality specs"? You certainly didn't; not until just now anyway. See above.

You're right there. I never used that before until now. Why? Because I can't see the justification to fix this car to only be a driver. If you're going to go through the trouble to fix it, why not fix it right and not half assed?

No, it doesn't need "everything". Plus, most of what it needs could be covered by buying a ~$15K car, as I mentioned in my example which refuted your claim. For that matter, you could buy a $30K donor car and still come in at well under your "$60K to look half decent" estimate.

There goes your $17K-$25K estimate right there. I never said $60K to look half decent either.

By the way, if you had estimated $60K to get it to show quality specifications, I wouldn't have disputed that. In fact, I would consider that a very conservative estimate (depending on what level of show quality is being talked about).

I was estimating $50K IF YOU DID EVERYTHING BY YOURSELF AND DIDN'T HIRE ANYONE ELSE OR SUB ANY WORK OUT. Yes, that is very conservative.

Hey, if you can build this into a driver for $17K-$25K, more power to ya. Have at it and definitely post the pic's when you're done. I'm sure we're all curious to see if it will happen. Good luck!

[nvrbdn]

who's serve is it?

[Brock Samson]

   Hey batter, batter!!   

[hemigeno]

I don't know if it is 18 or 23 spline, but it came with the car when I got it. The 18 spline is considered the "Hemi 4-speed". It came with Hemis and it also came with A12 package 440-6v 69.5 Road Runners and Super Bees, and maybe the later 440-6v cars. Are you sure that they came with 440-4v cars?

All 4-speed 440's and 426's received the 18 spline transmission in 1969.

All 4-speed 440's and 426's in 1969 also received a Dana 60 rear axle too (3.54 or the optional 4.10 ratio) - so that 8-3/4 won't be correct for this car.


I had a much longer reply typed trying to reinforce the good counsel already proffered by others - but it all seems to have fallen on deaf ears.  Why bother telling you what you don't want to hear and won't heed anyway.

[Hissing Cobra]

who's serve is it?

LOL! Not mine! I just took myself out of the game. I'm now in the stands with the box of Popcorn.

[greenpigs]

Please don't turn this into MOPARTS Jr.

[Brock Samson]

 Did Bob have a Kid?..  







  Bob    =    OldMoparts    >     Moparts Jr?....    never mind....


 

[MaximRecoil]

I NEVER said anything about this car looking "Half decent". I was quoting YOU!

It was Back N Black in reply #54 who made the "half decent" claim. When you replied:

"You cannot refute the $60K to look half decent claim because that's what it's going to cost, regardless of if you did it yourself or if you hired someone else."

It looked like you were defending your own claim, and I didn't bother to scroll back and make sure (my mistake). In any event, you are defending/repeating the claim, so you agree with it, and it doesn't affect what I said either way.

Totally different scenario! A daily driver is not a car that is 42 years old.

It can be.

You're right there. I never used that before until now. Why? Because I can't see the justification to fix this car to only be a driver.

The justification? It would cost far less money, and that's the whole point of the argument.

If you're going to go through the trouble to fix it, why not fix it right and not half assed?

That's a false dilemma. Things can be fixed right without being up to "show quality" standards.  

There goes your $17K-$25K estimate right there.

No. A $15K donor car plus doing all the work yourself could easily keep the total cost under $25K for a "driver".

I never said $60K to look half decent either.

You agree with the claim, and repeated it when you said:

"You cannot refute the $60K to look half decent claim because that's what it's going to cost, regardless of if you did it yourself or if you hired someone else."

In other words, what you effectively said there was, "It is going to cost $60K to look half decent".

So what difference does it make if you originally said it or if you agree with it / repeated it?

Hey, if you can build this into a driver for $17K-$25K, more power to ya. Have at it and definitely post the pic's when you're done. I'm sure we're all curious to see if it will happen. Good luck!

I can't. It could be done by someone with the skill, time, and tools to do everything himself, and could find a suitable donor car.

All 4-speed 440's and 426's received the 18 spline transmission in 1969.

All 4-speed 440's and 426's in 1969 also received a Dana 60 rear axle too (3.54 or the optional 4.10 ratio) - so that 8-3/4 won't be correct for this car.

That's interesting. I guess whoever swiped the original engine out of it wanted the transmission and rearend too. I've seen plenty of restored '69 440 R/Ts with 8 3/4" rearends, and I didn't know there was anything special about the 4-speed in that regard. I'm surprised that anyone bothered to put a rearend back in it. Thanks for the information/correction.

I had a much longer reply typed trying to reinforce the good counsel already proffered by others - but it all seems to have fallen on deaf ears.  Why bother telling you what you don't want to hear and won't heed anyway.

I've already said a few times that I'm most likely going to sell it, and if I do any work on it, it will only be with the parts that I already have. Talking about cost to restore it or make it a "driver" is just for the sake of argument because I've already pointed out that I don't plan to restore it or make it a "driver"; and that doesn't have anything to do with counsel.

[PocketThunder]

This car is awesome!  I would drag it home, powerwash the hell out of it.  Fix the brakes, get it running, throw in a passenger seat and drive it just the way it is, faded General paint and all.   I wouldnt even start a restoration on it.  Just drive it like it is.  they are more fun that way.      

Paul

[Troy]

I wasn't aware that the engine ran. That doesn't change my opinion though - I'd still go through it as I don't like having to pull engines after the car is painted. I can pick up engines for $200-600 all day long so having one isn't a deal maker or breaker either way. The hood on the car is toast (if you have another I didn't pick up on that) and your description of the fenders didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. The 18 spline trans is *nicknamed* the "Hemi" trans - that doesn't mean it only came behind Hemis. Your car would have had one (only small blocks and 383s got the 23 spline). You make a lot of assumptions in your cost calculations that I don't think are feasible. For example, also purchasing a car with a bad body and no drive train but good (usable) trim and interior for a reasonable price. It might be cheaper to buy a parts car for the miscellaneous items but most everything you pull off it will require restoration so you're really just saving the time/hassle of finding individual parts.

I don't know if it is 18 or 23 spline, but it came with the car when I got it. The 18 spline is considered the "Hemi 4-speed". It came with Hemis and it also came with A12 package 440-6v 69.5 Road Runners and Super Bees, and maybe the later 440-6v cars. Are you sure that they came with 440-4v cars?

All 4-speed 440's and 426's received the 18 spline transmission in 1969.

All 4-speed 440's and 426's in 1969 also received a Dana 60 rear axle too (3.54 or the optional 4.10 ratio) - so that 8-3/4 won't be correct for this car.


I had a much longer reply typed trying to reinforce the good counsel already proffered by others - but it all seems to have fallen on deaf ears.  Why bother telling you what you don't want to hear and won't heed anyway.

Thanks for the backup on that. My 4-speed R/T is a 68 and my research led me to believe that the Dana was standard on 426/440 4-speed cars. People are always looking under my 70 Challenger for the Dana so I figured 69 was the same.

I'd love to see it restored BUT in my opinion... it is neither smart nor practical for someone to take this car and slap it together with used parts to make it a driver. A nice driver can be had for less (even an R/T - although probably not a real 4-speed). Therefore, there's no sense in discussing all the ways to cut corners. If you want to "do it right" it will cost a small fortune (as will many cars). It makes sense to sell it if you don't have the skills and don't want to spend the money (or don't have it or can't justify it). There are a few guys I can think of that could do the necessary work themselves and possibly come out ahead. I'm not sure any of them would even tackle it - but I could very well be wrong.

Troy

[Back N Black]

Yeah, i said 60k to make it look half decent. Anyhow, have you ever restored a charger or Mopar before? Most guys giving you the advise, has been down that road.

[MaximRecoil]

This car is awesome!  I would drag it home, powerwash the hell out of it.  Fix the brakes, get it running, throw in a passenger seat and drive it just the way it is, faded General paint and all.   I wouldnt even start a restoration on it.  Just drive it like it is.  they are more fun that way.    

That's pretty much the plan. However, I do want to make it structurally solid before driving it, which means at the very least, repairing the trunk floor and quarter panels. I don't know what surprises are underneath, but I'd say that at the very least, the brake lines will need to be dealt with; possibly some frame and bracket repair and gas tank straps.

For things I can't do myself, I know just the man for the job too. He's been my mechanic for the past 20 years (name's Dave), and we're friends by now. He's been hounding me for a long time to get that orange Charger on the road. His official rates are $45/hr., but he's never charged me more than $100 for labor even when working all day on something (8+ hours). He's not someone anyone would want to use for a show quality restoration, but he certainly knows how to make things solid and functional. Plus he loves old Mopars, and he has a mechanic working for him now that is champing at the bit to work on this car. He's one of those "Mopar or no car" kind of guys, and from the way he drools at the thought of working on that Charger every time I'm around, I bet I could get him to pay me to work on the car (lol). On top of that, there is another mechanic that works for Dave that happens to be a friend of mine from school, and he's already offered his help in his spare time if I need it on that car.

[nvrbdn]

heck, try to work out a deal for the shell as payment. get some work done for the trade and kill two birds and start cruising.

[MaximRecoil]

Yeah, i said 60k to make it look half decent. Anyhow, have you ever restored a charger or Mopar before? Most guys giving you the advise, has been down that road.

The point is: there's a difference between making something look half decent and restoring a car. I've already given an example of how it could be made to look half decent for far less money than $60K.

[ACUDANUT]

UH OH! Almost a GL, get ready for some comments.

Yeah, that wasn't my doing. As much as I love the General Lee (I grew up on the Dukes of Hazzard like most kids in the '80s did), I wouldn't want to drive around town in one, simply because I wouldn't want all the attention/foolishness that goes along with it. I can picture it now: people yelling "YEE HAW" when I drive by, or yelling, "Hey Bo, where's Luke and Daisy?", or asking about the horn, or wanting to race, or asking why the doors open, or wanting to take pictures, and so on.

I have nothing at all against people who own and drive General Lee replicas; it just isn't for me.

You cannot refute the $60K to look half decent claim because that's what it's going to cost, regardless of if you did it yourself or if you hired someone else. I'll stick to my original estimate of $50K if you do everything by yourself and probably $75K if you hire someone else to do it for you.

I already did refute it, and that stands until you refute the refutation.

I'm sorry, but even if someone were to do this themselves, they will not be able to do it in the $17K-$25K range even if they had the drivetrain. Like I said before, there's at least $20K worth of bodywork and paint to do before you even get to the drivetrain and once you finish the body to show quality specs (to do otherwise would be ridiculous),

What you deem ridiculous doesn't matter with regard to what is possible. There are no universal laws of nature which dictate that it needs $20K worth of bodywork and paint. If you remember right, it was you who used the term "looks half decent", which is a far cry from "show quality".

there's no way that someone is going to install a used motor, transmission, or rearend without going through them. It just does not make sense!

People do it all the time in daily drivers. They get an engine, or a transmission, or a rearend from a junk yard, install it, and drive down the road. Remember your "looks half decent" yardstick.

Don't forget that once you've got that body to show quality specs, you've now got to invest in rechroming everything and polishing the stainless steel trim, buying new emblems and decals, polishing the glass, etc..., otherwise they'll look like crap against the new paint.

Who said anything about "show quality specs"? You certainly didn't; not until just now anyway. See above.

Oh, and if you don't thing you won't have to restore the body to show quality specs, why go through all of that trouble to only make a "driver"?

To drive it (the intended purpose of a car).

After that you've got to deal with the entire suspension, (bushings, tie rods, ball joints), brake system (lines, rotors, drums, shoes, pads, master cylinder, brake booster, proportioning valve), cooling system (hoses, theromstat, radiator, fuel system (lines, gas tank, fuel pump), ignition system (wiring, coil, ignition box, distributor). From there, we now move into the interior and we all know what that entails.

Again, there's NO WAY that this car can be put together for $17K-$25K. Why? Because THIS CAR NEEDS EVERYTHING!

No, it doesn't need "everything". Plus, most of what it needs could be covered by buying a ~$15K car, as I mentioned in my example which refuted your claim. For that matter, you could buy a $30K donor car and still come in at well under your "$60K to look half decent" estimate.

By the way, if you had estimated $60K to get it to show quality specifications, I wouldn't have disputed that. In fact, I would consider that a very conservative estimate (depending on what level of show quality is being talked about).

"For that matter, you could buy a $30K donor car"
Who would buy a 30K donor car ?
Hell, I'll sell you my complete '70 rust free and panited for 50K

[Brock Lee]

I think his point was you could feasibly go crazy and spend $30K on a donor car and be under budget.

I am one of those that would love to save that car, but I know it wont be cheap. The other side of it all is the collector appear is greatly reduced by the lack of the important original parts. It is pointless to be talking collector car values on a car that no matter what you do, will always be a driver grade vehicle (unless the original parts surface and are returned to the vehicle).

[MaximRecoil]

"For that matter, you could buy a $30K donor car"
Who would buy a 30K donor car ?
Hell, I'll sell you my complete '70 rust free and panited for 50K

It was an example to illustrate a point. The claim had been made that it would cost $60K to "look half decent". I gave examples showing how "looking half decent" could be acheived for far less money. A true restoration (100 point) on the other hand (which is a lot different than simply looking half decent) would cost a ton no matter what you started with, because everything has to be replaced or refurbished to as-new condition. Most people can't afford to truly restore any car, unless they are willing to go into debt for it or otherwise spread the cost over a long period of time, because it would cost more than the median annual household income in the U.S.

With regard to the "$60K to look half decent" claim:

The absolute cheapest route to looking "half decent" (which would be a "50 point car" I suppose, AKA: a "driver") would go something like this:

1. John Exxon: mechanic, body & paint man, machinist, and fabricator extraordinaire, and master of the English wheel and various other metal shaping devices/techniques; acquires my car and all of its loose parts.

2. For the cost of welding supplies, sandpaper, filler, blasting media, etc., he transforms it into a solid body shell. Generic sheet metal for fabrication is free or cheap if you know where to look.

3. He acquires a 383 Charger donor car with a rotted body and a missing or bad drivetrain, but a decent interior, trim, wiring harnesses, and all the other miscellaneous parts. This may be hard to find, but this is the cheapest way. Remember, that he could spend an insane amount, like $30K on a donor car, and still be well under the $60K budget in the end.

4. He transfers the needed 383 Charger parts to the R/T, and replaces the consumables (e.g., tires, brake pads/shoes, etc.) with new parts.

5. He does final body work and an average-grade paint job (comparable to a typical factory paint job).

Would anyone care to estimate how much money John Exxon has spent? There is no way it would be anywhere near $60K, and the car would indeed look "half decent". A lot of people might even say it would look good.