My basket case R/T

[MaximRecoil]

Your thread as I read it made me believe you owned the car and its been sitting year your field for five years and you were responsible for the car in its current shape.

I do own the car, but that does not mean I had anything to do with it being outside for the past 5 years. I told you several times (both in the form of the "crystal ball" sarcasm and explicitly) that you lacked the prerequisite knowledge to make valid comments on the matter.

I applogize again and sorry I get so passionate about these cars.

No problem.

[69 OUR/TEA]

MaximRecoil,you are new to this forum,there have been many a thread regarding cars like this one,which so many members say resurect it with all the new parts they have out there.But,stand back and take it all in the shape of the car.The thing is toast!!!!!Don't send it to its grave,its already there!!!!!Way more than work you expect is there!!!!! I get the part where you feel bad about certain cars going to trash sitting there and feel the need to save,but when they have reached this point,WHAT IS FREAKING WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Stop trying to live the dream of bringing one back like this one.
Few cars like this one ever make it to completion when started,and unless you are very talented in the paint/body profession,have a shop,equipment,the money,and last but not least,the time,it is not worth getting involved in a resto of this caliber,let alone,pour money into it.
Again,take the money you WOULD shove into it,and just go buy one in alot better condition,and for that matter,a #3,or even #2 car cruise night/light show quality,and skip the resto and get in in now and start enjoying,not freakin dreaming about it!!!!!!
If you don't have the funds,go take a collector car loan and buy one,you would be pouring money into it monthly anyway!!!!!!
I expect you to be stubborn,and beleive you can think you do it,but take my advice,don't do it,you will be much happier a few years from now when you realize you should'nt have opened up a can of worms!!!!
BTW,you are not the only one,there has been numerous threads like this on basket case cars.

[MaximRecoil]

MaximRecoil,you are new to this forum,there have been many a thread regarding cars like this one,which so many members say resurect it with all the new parts they have out there.But,stand back and take it all in the shape of the car.The thing is toast!!!!!Don't send it to its grave,its already there!!!!!Way more than work you expect is there!!!!! I get the part where you feel bad about certain cars going to trash sitting there and feel the need to save,but when they have reached this point,WHAT IS FREAKING WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Stop trying to live the dream of bringing one back like this one.
Few cars like this one ever make it to completion when started,and unless you are very talented in the paint/body profession,have a shop,equipment,the money,and last but not least,the time,it is not worth getting involved in a resto of this caliber,let alone,pour money into it.
Again,take the money you WOULD shove into it,and just go buy one in alot better condition,and for that matter,a #3,or even #2 car cruise night/light show quality,and skip the resto and get in in now and start enjoying,not freakin dreaming about it!!!!!!
If you don't have the funds,go take a collector car loan and buy one,you would be pouring money into it monthly anyway!!!!!!
I expect you to be stubborn,and beleive you can think you do it,but take my advice,don't do it,you will be much happier a few years from now when you realize you should'nt have opened up a can of worms!!!!
BTW,you are not the only one,there has been numerous threads like this on basket case cars.

I think looks can be deceiving. Used car dealerships know this. For example, it is pretty well established that a car that's been washed, waxed/polished, vacuumed, Armor Alled, etc., tends to sell for significantly more than one that hasn't.

This car has extremely typical second generation Charger body problems. If a picture of it were posted before it had had the bad areas cut out of it, and with the doors, fenders, glass, seats, etc. still in it; making it superficially appear to be more intact, I suspect the comments on it would be different. The funny thing is, with the bad parts already cut out of it, quite a few hours of labor have already been saved for anyone who wants to make it a solid car.

I've been reading jb666's incredible "Stay away from BK Auto" thread, and it made me think of another good thing about this car: it has never had a body job; it still wears its factory paint; meaning, what you see is what you get. There are no surprises lurking under Bondo or fiberglass in this car.

In any event, quite a bit could be done to this car without costing anything in materials (aside from welding supplies and such); just a lot a labor. Once the car is solid, people would be singing a different tune about it. This may not be a project for me to tackle, but I know there are plenty of people out there that could make this into a solid R/T body shell for mostly just the cost of their own labor.

[69 OUR/TEA]

5 years sitting on the ground in open weather has done its toll more than you think it has to the floor pans,frame rails,torsion bar crossmember,rockers, etc.Right off the hop,bring the car to get blasted in/out/top/bottom I have paid $1,500.00,then materials(epoxy) to coat everything another $100.00,before you even start!!!!
From what I can see in the pics,everything the back of the car that it needs,1/4's,trnk floor(would'nt use that 2 piece thing),extensions,braces,tail panel,rr valance,corners,etc is about $3,800.00 + tax + shipping.
Never mind if the rails need work,does'nt sound that bad,but alot of work.Then get into the front end........
It can be done,have seen cars like this get done,but WHO.....is doing it is what counts,experience or no experience.
You make it sound like a walk in the park because alot of the sheetmetal is already off,that I dissagree with you.Has the car been slammed around with all that structure off??Things can move!!!!Anyway,don't want to beat a dead horse,big undertaking,just trying to make sure your well aware of it before you waste alot of time and money.

[Back N Black]

Look at it this way, it will take at least 60K to get it to look even half decent. Is it worth that!

[69 OUR/TEA]

Actually,just looked at the pics alittle better,it has been slammed around,look at your drivers side frame rail bent up in the air!!!!Add that to the list.Kinda looks like what I'm telling you,the previous owner with big pipe dreams buys it,cuts it apart and says"F@#k this" and threw it there for the next guy!!!!!

[MaximRecoil]

5 years sitting on the ground in open weather has done its toll more than you think it has to the floor pans,frame rails,torsion bar crossmember,rockers, etc.

That may be, but one can only speculate about that at this point.

From what I can see in the pics,everything the back of the car that it needs,1/4's,trnk floor(would'nt use that 2 piece thing),extensions,braces,tail panel,rr valance,corners,etc is about $3,800.00 + tax + shipping.

Plenty of restorations were done with 2-piece trunk floors before aftermarket 1-piece ones were available. They work. I have quarter panels and trunk floor extensions, and maybe a few other parts for back there (I'd have to check).  

Never mind if the rails need work,does'nt sound that bad,but alot of work.

Yes, a lot of work for sure.

You make it sound like a walk in the park because alot of the sheetmetal is already off,that I dissagree with you.

No, I never said anything to make it sound like "a walk in the park". I specifically said "a lot a labor".  

Look at it this way, it will take at least 60K to get it to look even half decent.

It could come back as a perfect body shell from U.S. Car Tool for $17,500, and that is paying someone else to do it. Then add a "half decent" donor car; say a 383 Charger, for say, $15K, and you are at $32.5K. That leaves quite a bit of money for paint and prep (and various other things) before hitting $60K, and that is taking a particularly easy and expensive approach. Someone capable of doing all the body work themselves could knock quite a few thousand off the $17.5K price to get to the solid body shell point, and missing parts after that could be sourced cheaper than buying a complete "half decent" Charger for $15K.

Actually,just looked at the pics alittle better,it has been slammed around,look at your drivers side frame rail bent up in the air!!!!Add that to the list.

The frame rail isn't bent up; what is left of the quarter panel and tail light panel is bent up; and it did happen after the cutting.

Kinda looks like what I'm telling you,the previous owner with big pipe dreams buys it,cuts it apart and says"F@#k this" and threw it there for the next guy!!!!!

That's not what happened, but that's another story.

[Aero426]

Someone capable of doing all the body work themselves could knock quite a few thousand off the $17.5K price to get to the solid body shell point, and missing parts after that could be sourced cheaper than buying a complete "half decent" Charger for $15K.

Unless you are experienced and have the skills to perform the body work TODAY (no learning curve),  I see no up side in this project.   I am sure it could be saved, but the cost and time is simply be too much for most. 

[MaximRecoil]

Someone capable of doing all the body work themselves could knock quite a few thousand off the $17.5K price to get to the solid body shell point, and missing parts after that could be sourced cheaper than buying a complete "half decent" Charger for $15K.

Unless you are experienced and have the skills to perform the body work TODAY (no learning curve),  I see no up side in this project.   I am sure it could be saved, but the cost and time is simply be too much for most.  

Edit: I misread your post, so what I originally typed in response here is irrelevant.

[69 OUR/TEA]

   It could come back as a perfect body shell from U.S. Car Tool for $17,500, and that is paying someone else to do it. Then add a "half decent" donor car; say a 383 Charger, for say, $15K, and you are at $32.5K. That leaves quite a bit of money for paint and prep (and various other things) before hitting $60K, and that is taking a particularly easy and expensive approach. Someone capable of doing all the body work themselves could knock quite a few thousand off the $17.5K price to get to the solid body shell point, and missing parts after that could be sourced cheaper than buying a complete "half decent" Charger for $15K

    Read carefully,$17,500 is for the body stripped,new metal welded/installed,and coated.NO BODYWORK !!!!!!! Never did any hanging of your donor hood,fenders,doors,and trunk lid.Boy,I hope they get it right!!!!!Whenever I strip a car that hard,long before I weld ANYTHING on,I fully assemble the whole shell to see my door gaps,alignment,fitment,everything latching,etc.I know,$17,500 sounds great,but its what lies ahead for the actual bodyman doing the bodywork.NTM,his bill for all the bodywork,blocking,painting.
You may think I'm picking on you imparticular,but I'm just trying to give you a REAL heads up so as you know what you or anyone else with projects like these entail.

[MaximRecoil]

    Read carefully,$17,500 is for the body stripped,new metal welded/installed,and coated.NO BODYWORK !!!!!!! Never did any hanging of your donor hood,fenders,doors,and trunk lid.Boy,I hope they get it right!!!!!Whenever I strip a car that hard,long before I weld ANYTHING on,I fully assemble the whole shell to see my door gaps,alignment,fitment,everything latching,etc.I know,$17,500 sounds great,but its what lies ahead for the actual bodyman doing the bodywork.NTM,his bill for all the bodywork,blocking,painting.
You may think I'm picking on you imparticular,but I'm just trying to give you a REAL heads up so as you know what you or anyone else with projects like these entail.

I'm not actually planning to do that. It was simply an example showing that it would not cost $60K to make the car look "half decent", even if you payed someone else to make the body solid.

[MaximRecoil]

This is interesting. If I am reading this right, and if the site is accurate, they made 3,605 1969 R/T 440 4-speeds, and 14,739 automatics, for a total of 18,344 1969 R/Ts with the 440 engine.

With a production of 3,605 4-speed cars, I wonder how many still exist today in any form? This car is less common than I thought.

[ACUDANUT]

Fix it or sell it...Letting it sit as is, your options are quickly demonising.

[Troy]

Yes, it's rare.
Yes, it's a HUGE project.
Yes, someone who can do their own labor (hopefully on everything!) could do it without winning the lottery.

However, for the rest of us, that's easily a $50-100k undertaking (depending on how "correct" you want it in the end). I talked to a couple at the Mopar Nationals who started with a "nice driver" 68 and had nearly $200k into it after paying the shop. I question the ethics of the resto company in that case BUT I also know firsthand of a 70 split bumper Camaro done by the place with the cheapest labor that I know of ($25 per hour) and it had over $30k in the body/paint. The only usable panels were part of the cowl and roof. GM sheet metal is way cheaper than Mopar too.

I wonder if U.S. Car Tool would laugh at you if you pulled up with that on a trailer? Even better, would you be able to get it off the ground in one piece? I'd really, really inspect it thoroughly before even considering it because it looks like you might only have a cowl and package tray. The older replacement metal didn't fit well at all - people only used it because there were no other options. A new one-piece floor would save a ton of time and labor (and therefore money). Same with the trunk pan and full rear quarters. Refer to my above statement about how "correct" you want it. If you're going to really restore a rare R/T then it should be done as well as possible. The Goodmark outer wheel houses and Charger Specialities valance corners can go straight into the trash can. I have $2,300 worth of metal sitting in my garage for my Challenger and it's pretty solid (no fenders, quarters, frame rails, etc.). You're bill will probably be well over $5,500 and some of the little stuff still isn't available.

As mentioned, even when the welding is done, you still have a whole mess of fitting, blocking, filling, and painting. Depending on the shop rate you're probably in the neighborhood of $6-12k.

If you rebuild the engine to stock specs you could get by without going broke. Most guys spend $4-10k. Is the transmission an 18 or 23 spline? It would have originally come with an 18-spline so if you don't have one figure on another $2k. If you're missing linkage, clutch, pressure plate, bell housing, etc. you'll need another $1-3k. Console? If you're supposed to have one but don't you'll need another $1,000 and $500-900 if you need an original shifter. I believe the car should originally have had a Dana - tack on another $2,500. A decent interior (assuming you have usable dash and seat frames) will run $3-6k. No mention of a grill? Figure on another $3-5k. Radiator (correct) will be $600-1,200. Wheels, tires, brakes, drive shaft, another $2-3k. Suspension and steering another $3-4k. Then you've got wiring harnesses (~$1,200 from Year One), taillights ($1,500?), speedometer cable ($50), washer bottle, trunk mat, jack assembly ($$$), and a ton of stuff I'm forgetting. Then you've got repairing/rebuilding the wiper motor, gauge cluster, heater box, steering column, and window assemblies along with rechroming (acquiring?) bumpers and vent window assemblies, and polishing (acquiring?) all stainless trim.

Yes, you'd have to do everything in the previous paragraph for a car in much better condition - but you're starting way behind the curve. Adding up the high end of what I listed comes out to over $71k (assuming you get the US Car Tool deal) and I'm sure there are a lot of areas where the costs will overrun. I can't imagine dropping $20k off that figure by DIY labor or getting screaming deals on parts and I believe you could purchase a nice original 4-speed R/T (probably numbers matching) for less than the low end.

It's even more upside down if you just want to stick it together and drive it (ignoring correctness for the moment). In that case you could buy a really nice driver for $17-25k and add a 440, 4-speed, and Dana (if it wasn't already converted).

I guess the real question is: do you really want a rare car at any cost or do you want a Charger to enjoy and don't have an unlimited budget?

Troy

[pipeliner]

Ive never seen a buildsheet look that good coming out of a car like that.Its nice to have a buildsheet but you dont have nothing original for the car so I dont thinks that makes the car worth anymore IMO.Id sell the car myself.I can buy this one sold just to me for under $1,000 and its a RARE 69 RT in a RARE Color lol.

[MaximRecoil]

Yes, it's rare.
Yes, it's a HUGE project.
Yes, someone who can do their own labor (hopefully on everything!) could do it without winning the lottery.

However, for the rest of us, that's easily a $50-100k undertaking (depending on how "correct" you want it in the end). I talked to a couple at the Mopar Nationals who started with a "nice driver" 68 and had nearly $200k into it after paying the shop. I question the ethics of the resto company in that case BUT I also know firsthand of a 70 split bumper Camaro done by the place with the cheapest labor that I know of ($25 per hour) and it had over $30k in the body/paint. The only usable panels were part of the cowl and roof. GM sheet metal is way cheaper than Mopar too.

It costs ridiculous amounts of money to do a perfect restoration, no matter what you start with. If you're spending a couple hundred thousand, then the difference in cost between starting with a "nice driver" and a "basket case" isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

I wonder if U.S. Car Tool would laugh at you if you pulled up with that on a trailer?

If you are wondering that, then I wonder if you've looked at / read their site. The only extra cost items they list are:

"damaged or complete frame replacement, roof replacement or A-pillar replacement are extra cost items"

Things which are included are:

"Rusted or pitted floors are replaced, rusted or damaged quarter panels are replaced, rusted trunk floors and extensions are replaced. Rusted frames are repaired"

Additionally, I already said I wasn't planning on doing that. I used it as an example.

Even better, would you be able to get it off the ground in one piece?

Yes.

I'd really, really inspect it thoroughly before even considering it because it looks like you might only have a cowl and package tray.

I've already described the condition. Yes, the car may have deteriorated some in the last 5 years, but it hasn't fallen apart. Just from the pictures alone you can see plenty of solid parts (roof, C-pillars, A-pillars, door jambs, visible portions of the floor, etc.) I also mentioned that I have the trunk lid, doors, hood, and fenders (glass too). Those have been inside and are fine, though they are dinged up (not rotted though). So obviously, there is more there than a "cowl and package tray".

As mentioned, even when the welding is done, you still have a whole mess of fitting, blocking, filling, and painting. Depending on the shop rate you're probably in the neighborhood of $6-12k.

I'm not taking it to a shop, and I would hope that anyone considering buying it is someone who can do all or most of the work it needs themselves. I think it is crazy to pay house and land-type money for any car, unless you're rich I suppose.

If you rebuild the engine to stock specs you could get by without going broke. Most guys spend $4-10k.

Why rebuild a running engine that doesn't have any issues? Just as an example, let's say the running engine runs smoothly and has 70K miles on it. It may last easily for another 70K miles or more. Would this be someone's primary form of transportation / daily driver? Do they need to rebuild the motor to make sure they can get to work every day? Unlikely. Typically, engines are rebuilt when they need it, but when it comes to restorations, there seems to be some unwritten rule that it be done as a matter of course, even though fully restored cars don't usually see many miles after they are completed.

Is the transmission an 18 or 23 spline? It would have originally come with an 18-spline so if you don't have one figure on another $2k.

I don't know if it is 18 or 23 spline, but it came with the car when I got it. The 18 spline is considered the "Hemi 4-speed". It came with Hemis and it also came with A12 package 440-6v 69.5 Road Runners and Super Bees, and maybe the later 440-6v cars. Are you sure that they came with 440-4v cars?

If you're missing linkage, clutch, pressure plate, bell housing, etc. you'll need another $1-3k.

I'm not missing those things.

Console? If you're supposed to have one but don't you'll need another $1,000 and $500-900 if you need an original shifter.

The shifter mechanism and lever are still attached to the transmission. I don't know if the car originally had a console or not. I guess someone who understands broadcast sheet codes could tell. It looks like there are console brackets on the transmission hump, so I assume it came with a console. I don't have the console.

I believe the car should originally have had a Dana - tack on another $2,500.

No, the car came with an 8 3/4" rearend (which is what is in it), as did many (most?) 440 cars. The [Super] Track Pack 440 cars got the Dana 60.  

A decent interior (assuming you have usable dash and seat frames) will run $3-6k. No mention of a grill? Figure on another $3-5k.

I have a grill, but I don't know if I'd include it if selling the car. I'm probably going to use it on the 318 car (which is the car it came on) which should be fairly easy to get on the road. The only work I'm considering doing on the car is stuff that I can do myself, with the stuff I already have, when and if I feel that I'm able; and that is only a consideration. As I've said all along, I am leaning toward selling it.

Radiator (correct) will be $600-1,200. Wheels, tires, brakes, drive shaft, another $2-3k. Suspension and steering another $3-4k. Then you've got wiring harnesses (~$1,200 from Year One), taillights ($1,500?), speedometer cable ($50), washer bottle, trunk mat, jack assembly ($$$), and a ton of stuff I'm forgetting. Then you've got repairing/rebuilding the wiper motor, gauge cluster, heater box, steering column, and window assemblies along with rechroming (acquiring?) bumpers and vent window assemblies, and polishing (acquiring?) all stainless trim.

Yes, you'd have to do everything in the previous paragraph for a car in much better condition - but you're starting way behind the curve. Adding up the high end of what I listed comes out to over $71k (assuming you get the US Car Tool deal) and I'm sure there are a lot of areas where the costs will overrun. I can't imagine dropping $20k off that figure by DIY labor or getting screaming deals on parts and I believe you could purchase a nice original 4-speed R/T (probably numbers matching) for less than the low end.

It's even more upside down if you just want to stick it together and drive it (ignoring correctness for the moment). In that case you could buy a really nice driver for $17-25k and add a 440, 4-speed, and Dana (if it wasn't already converted).

The goalpost seems to be constantly shifting here. As I said, the US Car Tool thing + the donor car in good shape was simply an example to refute the "$60K to look half decent claim". It was not anything I am considering, nor would I consider it a good idea. What would be a good idea would be this: someone has the car who can do all or most of the labor himself (I personally know at least one person who could), and transforms it into a solid body shell for not much money (but a lot of labor). Then, if he can, he buys a car with a good interior and a lot of the miscellaneous items, but no drivetrain and a bad body (making the car less expensive to buy) and gets most of the remaining stuff he needs from that. In this case, he has a nice driver that would probably be in your $17-25k range (or less), he wouldn't have to add the drivetrain (because he already has it) and it would be an actual R/T, which carries some inherent value in its own right.

[MaximRecoil]

Ive never seen a buildsheet look that good coming out of a car like that.

The build sheet came out of it who knows how long ago.

Its nice to have a buildsheet but you dont have nothing original for the car so I dont thinks that makes the car worth anymore IMO.

It doesn't have the original engine or transmission. It has the original doors, fenders, trunk lid, hood, glass, trim, etc.

I can buy this one sold just to me for under $1,000 and its a RARE 69 RT in a RARE Color lol.

Is that an automatic or manual car? Is there a motor, transmission, rearend, doors, hubs, and complete suspension and steering components in it or included with it?

[Brock Samson]

You could prolly get it cherry for $30K if you stop at the fire wall... Then work back... 

Way out of my league... 

[MaximRecoil]

You could prolly get it cherry for $30K if you stop at the fire wall... Then work back...  

Way out of my league...  

I'm probably going to sell it. I'm only discussing restoration and or refurbishing costs for the sake of argument, because I would never put that much money into a car. Things were different years ago when I got the car (a two car deal for cheap in the mid-'90s), but that was then and this is now. I am also annoyed that it has been outside for the past 5 years, which I only recently found out about; but that is another story.

[Brock Samson]

I'm sure for 20 Large you could get a nice driver, and a big block 4 sp. for ten on top of that. 
welcome to the site in anycase, I've enjoyed your posts so far. 

[MaximRecoil]

I'm sure for 20 Large you could get a nice driver, and a big block 4 sp. for ten on top of that. 

I'll probably have to settle for making the '69 318 Charger structurally and mechanically sound and calling it good. It will be ugly, but at least I'll have a Charger to drive (only in the summer though, to keep the rust beetles at bay), and it will even be halfway decent on gas.

welcome to the site in anycase, I've enjoyed your posts so far. 

Thanks.

[BIGBLCK11]

Yes, Welcome to the site!  It sounds like you know what direction you want to go in.  I agree, all of your posts were well said.  Lots of good advice on here and lots of opinions, some must be taken with a grain of salt too, even if your best interest was the intent.  A number of people in possession of those two cars, might take a less moral route.  It doesn't sound like you would do so, props on that. 

Any pics of the 318 car?

[MaximRecoil]

Yes, Welcome to the site!  It sounds like you know what direction you want to go in.  I agree, all of your posts were well said.  Lots of good advice on here and lots of opinions, some must be taken with a grain of salt too, even if your best interest was the intent.  A number of people in possession of those two cars, might take a less moral route.  It doesn't sound like you would do so, props on that.  

Any pics of the 318 car?

Fair warning: it is ugly. This car has also been sitting out, so I can only speculate about the condition underneath (it might not be practical to save it, I'll have to see about that). It was pretty solid underneath last I knew. When I saw it a week or two ago, the floorboards were still solid except for a very small soft spot / soon-to-be hole in the driver side footwell area that is forming at the corner of a generic flat sheetmetal patch that someone had installed long before I got the car.

The rocker panels are solid, as are the door jambs. The doors are solid and seem to be straight. The glass is all good. The engine's last known condition was running (I stuck a battery in it and gave it some gas when I first got it and it fired right up). The fenders and grill are off the car because the previous owner's plan was to use them on the R/T, so that's how it was when I got the car. They are in good shape and have been stored inside. The hood used to be straight, but it managed to get bent down at some point while sitting out there (annoying). The trunk floor and quarter panels are rotted, as is typical.

Someone installed a 1970 interior at some point, but the dash and steering wheel is still 1969 (ignition lock on the dash rather than the column). The factory radio and its trim pieces are on the back seat. I don't have a passenger seat or a console for it, and that aftermarket shifter on the floor sucks.

I'm going to bring it home as soon as it warms up and the ground is softer (the wheels/tires are sunk into the ground). I'm not sure what I can do with it (like I said, it may be a lost cause), but maybe it will give me something to tinker on. Being a 318 car in rough shape, I don't need to worry about everything being "correct", nor am I concerned about making things pretty at this point.

[BIGBLCK11]

UH OH! Almost a GL, get ready for some comments.    Yeah, you'll have to dig her out and see what you have to work with.

Good Luck and Thanks for the pics!

[nvrbdn]

dig her out and get her in a garage to start ripping it apart and send lots of pic's of everything