Changing/correcting my drive train - FINAL UPDATE - THANKS RON!!!

[BananaDan]

THREAD (AND THIS POST) UPDATED  1/3/12 - READY TO GET GOING ON THIS NOW.  MY CURRENT THOUGHTS ARE POSTED BELOW IN A NEW MESSAGE.

So I want to make a cam change and have read FireFighter's great things to say about the Lunati Voodoo cams.  Based on what I have read, and what Lunati's site says, I think I need the 60303 cam, but I wanted to verify this first.

60303
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2337&gid=297

I want a new cam because I didn't know a thing about engines when I had my 440 rebuilt and I basically told him it was all up to him, I wanted it as powerful as possible while still running on 93/94 pump gas.  That was 8 years ago.  The engine was rebuilt and sat in my parents garage while my body shop guy took his time with my car, it just got back on the road last summer and I have no manifold vacuum and had to add a vacuum pump so my brakes work.  I hate having this pump in my car.  

Here's what I have now, and forgive me if I can't answer all of your questions, like I said it was rebuilt 8 years ago and just got fired up for the first time last summer.  My rebuild guy has since retired and is MIA and all I have is my invoice from him to know what's in my engine.  Here's what the invoice says:

440 block, stock bore 4.320" - bored 30 over and honed
Cook block - remove plugs
Install cam bearings
Install Freeze plugs
Crank was ground and polished
346 heads replaced with 906 heads  (346 heads had a crack if I recall correctly, I bought the 906 cores off eBay and drop shipped them to him)
906 heads were reconditioned and pocket ported (my invoice doesn't say polished but I remember telling him to do it)
R & R Pistons and Rods (Don't know what R & R means)
V-8 balancing
TRW Speed Pro forged pistons
9.5:1 compression
Sealpower molly rings
Fel Pro gasket set
CB527P Clevite 77 Rod Bearings
MS481M Clevite 77 Main Bearings
DM63HP High Pressure Oil Pump
"Hemi" fuel pump
new MP extra quart oil pan
78225 Roller Timing Chain Set-3 bolt
Iskenderian Mega 280 Cam Kit (cam, antipump lifters, double valve springs, chrome molly retainers, hardened valve keys, adjustable rockers, chrome molly pushrods)

Then, and still today, I have a Holley 750 double-pumper with mechanical secondaries as my carb, but am going to change it out for an Eddy Thunder AVS 800.  I have 3.23 SG rear end, and will either stay with this rear or swap her back to 3.55 SG which she came with from the factory (never bigger than 3.55 if I don't stay with 3.23).  I don't know what the torque converter is. The previous owner told me the guy he bought her from 1 year before had the trans rebuilt.  I never bothered to mess with it because it was freshly rebuilt, however that means I don't know if it was stock rebuilt, or modified.

I also have the stock cast iron intake manifold and I have Hooker SuperComp 5209-1HKR headers (2" pri, 3.5" col).  I have Magnaflow mufflers with an X-pipe and they reduced the 3.5 down to 3" for the exhaust (pictures below).

Basically, I want a mean street machine.  I *may* take her to the 1/4 mile track to see how she does, but will never race her competitively.  I do want her to draw respectable HP/Torque figures but I need to have my vacuum problem fixed so I can pitch this damn vacuum pump.  I know it may be considered a fine way to run a car, but she is stock restored and it feels like to me that she has a pacemaker in her.  When you turn the key on to ACC that pump turns on and I hate it!  

I restored her stock, but have no issues with 'hidden' mods to increase her performance and make her a mean street machine.

Many thanks in advance if you took the time to read this and provide input.  Ask any questions I may have missed, if I know the answer I'll tell you, as I said I'm doing the best I can off an 8-year-old invoice and my memory.

FireFighter, if you're out there, I'd love your thoughts.

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Hi Dan, that combo is not severely mimatched but it does need more converter with that cam 

It might be an issue of tuning, specificly the ignition curve. How much initial advance is showing on your timing light ? Generally speaking ; most BB Mopars like lots of spark lead and respond well to increased base timing. Increasing the timing will also boost manifold vacuum and make tuning easier.

Without knowing the actual compression ratio it's difficult to ascertain if the motor is overcammed. You might have low compression which is a problem if the cam is too large for that particular combination. It would be helpful to know what the piston to deck specs are then we could calculate the static compression and figure out a course of action.


Ron

[BananaDan]

My builder told me 9.5:1 for compression, which seems to jive with the figures on TRW's site for the piston's I think I have.  I don't know my current timing, but I know that when my mechanic was doing the first-run assembly work after her body work was done last summer, he told me the vacuum was around 4-5", and he was able to tune it up to 6-7" but was unable to get more.  He also had to change the power jets on the carb 2 different times because she was idling very poorly, she had to be adjusted to idle at around 1500-1800 to stay running.  Even now, she still idles high.  I would have no idea how to tell you what my piston deck height is.  You have to take the heads off to measure that I assume, right?

I have been told this cam is a bracket cam which I have no intention of racing her regularly or competitively.  If anything, I might run her once in a blue moon with friends just to see how she does.  She's mainly for pleasure cruising, stop light fun, and car shows.  Don't get me wrong though, I don't want a mild spouse cruiser, I do love to drive and want her to be a stone crusher.  I just don't want her to be tuned for the strip only and be a pain on the street, or have to deal with this vacuum pump anymore.

I've spoken to a few people, including my mechanic (who is a classic vette guy, races Porches and works on just about every classic/muscle car in town) and they have said my cam is too much / too big.  I just don't know what to move to.  If there's something I can measure easily to give you helpful info, let me know.

Dan

[BananaDan]

I guess I should have also mentioned I have the Mopar Orange Box EI, one of the restoration Mopar coils, restoration date-coded spark plug wires and an EI distributor (obviously).  I am unsure of the distributor manufacturer.  I assume Mopar, but the car had an Accel Super Coil when I bought her.

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Dan, there are 2 Speedpro flat top (Forged) pistons available : the 2266 & 2355.....the 2266's are a lower compression piston and the 2355's are a 6-pack higher compression replacement. I'm not sure what the part number you listed above is ? 

To determine the piston to deck measurement you need to remove the head and measure. 

The cam recommendation will  be based on the static compression calculations as well as the tq converter choice and final gearing.

Before i did anything i would try advancing the ignition timing at idle using a vacuum guage to see how much manifold vacuum is possible with the current configuration....adjust for max vacuum and record the number & report back. It's just a test to see what you've got to work with. 



Ron

[BananaDan]

Ok, I'll be back in a few months.  She isn't going to be running until I finish my interior restoration.  I'll be back to you if/when I make progress.  The part numbers are from a website I found when I googled TRW Speed-Pro Pistons. 

[Challenger340]

Just some trivia
H143CP is a Hypereutectic piston, by the H in SpeedPro numbering system, can be used for "P"ressed Pins by the P, with Coated Skirts "C".

It is listed as a 2.06" Compression Distance, same as the L2355F Six Pack Piston, albeit 2 Valve Reliefs instead of the 4 in the 2355.

Hope this helps out.

[BananaDan]

I was completely guessing at my piston part number, don't quote me on it.  Unfortunately I have no idea what they are other than the brand and the fact that she's bored 30 over.

Dan

[BananaDan]

Hi Dan, that combo is not severely mimatched but it does need more converter with that cam 

Ron,
I have re-read your comments and this above point sticks with me, and I have been told it by my mechanic as well.  I definitely don't want to change my converter.  That being said, I understand your point needing to know my comp. ratio to make a cam recommendation, which I will get to you once she's running again.  But if we assume it is 9.5:1 like my builder told me years ago, is the Lunati Voodoo 60303 a good fit?

Don't worry, I'm not going to go out and buy one and replace my cam based on your answer, I will get you my comp. ratio.  I'm just curious.

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Hi Dan, that combo is not severely mimatched but it does need more converter with that cam 

Ron,
I have re-read your comments and this above point sticks with me, and I have been told it by my mechanic as well.  I definitely don't want to change my converter.  That being said, I understand your point needing to know my comp. ratio to make a cam recommendation, which I will get to you once she's running again.  But if we assume it is 9.5:1 like my builder told me years ago, is the Lunati Voodoo 60303 a good fit?

Don't worry, I'm not going to go out and buy one and replace my cam based on your answer, I will get you my comp. ratio.  I'm just curious.

Dan

Dan, assuming you had a measured static 9.5:1 CR then yes the 303 would be a good match 

In regards to the converter : if your cam starts making power at say 3000 rpm and your converter flash stalls at 2200 then there's going to be a flat spot off idle. This is what happens when the incorrect cam is matched up with the incorrect converter.  The higher the compression, the more cam it can use....to a point. It's very important to match all the components or you'll be disappointed.   

Jackson aka Terrible one has a 383 in his 68 that'll lay 200ft of rubber.....that's a well matched combo ! 



Ron

[BananaDan]

Understood.  So once we determine my CR, and if it lines up with the 9.5:1 suspicion, the 303 cam should match my converter better and bring life into harmony.  Right?

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Understood.  So once we determine my CR, and if it lines up with the 9.5:1 suspicion, the 303 cam should match my converter better and bring life into harmony.  Right?

Dan

Correct ! 

And if for some reason the compression is lower than expected you can decide a course of action. A smaller cam (shorter duration) or bumping up the static compression & camming accordingly 



Ron

[BananaDan]

Thanks a lot Ron.  I'll be back in touch when she's running again so you can walk me through determining my CR.

I really appreciate the help.

Dan

[BananaDan]

I found my builder!!!  He was on Linked In, even though he's retired.  Thank god, he sent me his e-mail address.  So I e-mailed him and asked him for the below info.  Anything else I should ask him that isn't on the invoice info I posted on the top of this thread?

-Brand/Model # piston used
-valve sizes
-piston to deck specs
-static compression ratio
-flat tappet or roller cam (I recently read the sticky thread about needing zinc rich oils if flat tappet so I need to know)

Dan

[firefighter3931]

See if he can give you a combustion chamber size. If not see if he can tell you if the heads were milled and if so how much. Try to get info on the head gasket as well ; composite or steel shim.

Hopefully he kept assembly notes....most good shops do 


Ron

[BananaDan]

I'll ask those items.  He is/was a good shop.  My only concern is with retiring and closing the shop down, did he keep his records or purge them?

Dan

[BananaDan]

Heard back from my builder, Frank Bash.  He has his records in storage in PA, but he now lives in Virginia so I'll have to wait until he's back in PA.  Progress!

[firefighter3931]

That's good news 


Ron

[BananaDan]

The updates from my first post in this thread are I swapped my carb to an Eddy Thunder AVS 800 and swapped in a new MP EI distributor.  With tuning, I now have enough vacuum (~12") to disconnect the pump and my power brakes work.

I'm ready to make changes/corrections to my drive train.  Here are my current thoughts.

Definitely doing:
-Replace torque converter, current recommendation from Ron is the Dynamic 11" Street converter
-Install Gear Vendors Overdrive
-Change rear end from 3.23 to 3.91 or 4.10  (I'm leaning 3.91 to get a bit of the best of both worlds in a little bit lower RPMs for highway cruising)

Maybe doing:
-I think I should change my headers from the 2"pri/3.5"col down to 1 7/8"pri/3"col.  I was even told to look at 1 3/4" primaries possibly.  I was also told I was ok leaving the rest of my exhaust at 3".  Does that sound right?
-Cam change to the Lunati Voodoo 60303?  I know I have my vacuum now, but I'm still leaning towards making this change.  What would be the expected difference in drive-ability and power/response between this cam and the Isky Mega 280 in my 440 now considering the above changes?  I imagine the Voodoo would have better idle manners than the Isky?

I'm also planning a CH4B intake and Eddy Performer heads (or the MP version) down the road, but that won't be for at least a year as they're out of budget for now.

I still have the same goals as I mention in my first post, and as I did when I started this project 10 years ago is to have a mean street machine that looks stock and can run on 93 pump gas while being a brute on the street.  With the GV Overdrive I'm hoping to wake her up into a banshee on the line, but still enjoy cruising with her on the highways.  I drive her from NJ to Carlisle, I don't tow her and I want to be able to keep doing that.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and advice...

[firefighter3931]

Dan, did you ever find out what pistons were used in your build  

I like the 303 cam with 3.91 gears and an 11in converter....The VooDoo cam is cut on a wider LSA and has less duration @ .050 valve lift which will give it better idle characteristics and more bottom end punch.  

Assuming your static compression is as originally described this is definately a move in the right direction  

As for the headers & exhaust ; I would leave that all alone....



Ron

[BananaDan]

OK, thanks a bunch Ron for the advice.  No, unfortunately I haven't gotten that info yet so I'm sticking with the comp ratio I wrote on my invoice 8 years ago of 9.5:1 and trusting it is right.  I don't know if I ever will at this rate until I pull my heads down the road, my builder is pretty much gone and not getting back to me and his records are in storage 4 states away.  One question, for educational purposes, why would my current headers be ok to keep as-is?  Wouldn't they be considered over-sized for my build and cause me to lose low-end torque?

[firefighter3931]

OK, thanks a bunch Ron for the advice.  No, unfortunately I haven't gotten that info yet so I'm sticking with the comp ratio I wrote on my invoice 8 years ago of 9.5:1 and trusting it is right.  I don't know if I ever will at this rate until I pull my heads down the road, my builder is pretty much gone and not getting back to me and his records are in storage 4 states away.  One question, for educational purposes, why would my current headers be ok to keep as-is?  Wouldn't they be considered over-sized for my build and cause me to lose low-end torque?

Ok, assuming the compression is 9ish or so the 303 Lunati is a better choice than what you have....it will only improve the manners & throttle response. 

As for the headers ; yes they are oversized for the current build but you wont lose that much torque....maybe 15-20 ftlbs so based on the hassle expense involved i would not bother. 

In the future when you upgrade the heads, cam, intake, etc....you will be all set. 



Ron

[BananaDan]

Great.  I can't wait to wake her up with this project.  Is there a preferred stage to replace the cam considering I'm going to do this in two parts?  Part 1 being the TC, OD and rear-end, and part 2 being the intake and heads.  In other words, should I stick with the Isky until I get to my intake/heads, or should I swap it for the Lunati now?  Also, when I swap my heads and finally get confirmation on my CR and piston setup, should I target a specific CR to end up with when the new heads go on, considering all of the other changes I'm doing?

[resq302]

Dan,

Have you considered the 3.55 in place of the 3.23?  I did that swap a couple years ago and highway speed I am getting around I think 3000 rpms doing about 65-70 mph.  I would imagine if you put in the 3.91s it would raise the rpms doing the same speed as I was.  Especially for long hauls like Carlisle, I do not like keeping an engine going that high of an RPM for that long of a time.

Maybe if you are going with an overdrive then that should help with dropping the RPMs while highway cruising speeds.  But if you are not planning on that, I would stick to the 3.55 upgrade from the 3.23.   Granted, I did not notice that much of a difference but it does give it a little more power off the line at a light vs. the 3.23 that I had.

Just my personal opinion and 

[BananaDan]

Dan,

Have you considered the 3.55 in place of the 3.23?  I did that swap a couple years ago and highway speed I am getting around I think 3000 rpms doing about 65-70 mph.  I would imagine if you put in the 3.91s it would raise the rpms doing the same speed as I was.  Especially for long hauls like Carlisle, I do not like keeping an engine going that high of an RPM for that long of a time.

Maybe if you are going with an overdrive then that should help with dropping the RPMs while highway cruising speeds.  But if you are not planning on that, I would stick to the 3.55 upgrade from the 3.23.   Granted, I did not notice that much of a difference but it does give it a little more power off the line at a light vs. the 3.23 that I had.

Just my personal opinion and 

Yeah, 3.55 was my plan before I decided to go with the GV OD unit.  That unit will allow me to have 3.91 gears in first gear, but the equivalent to ~3.00 gears in 3-over when cruising on the highway.  That will provide the fun on the line and lower engine RPMs on the highway than I get today with my 3.23's.  4.10's in 3-over gear will result in about the same engine RPMs I have today, equating to about the same as my 3.23's.  I'm going to go with the 3.91's because I'd like to lower my RPMs on the highway a little more from where they are today.

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrdodge3s.html

[resq302]

I wish I had an overdrive unit in mine.     You don't know how long it took me to go from my 5 speed 85 Jeep CJ7 to driving a 4 speed in my charger.  Even still, I occasionally try and take it out of 4th and put it into the OD or 5th gear.  Funny thing is, no matter how many times I do it..... its not there!   

[firefighter3931]

Great.  I can't wait to wake her up with this project.  Is there a preferred stage to replace the cam considering I'm going to do this in two parts?  Part 1 being the TC, OD and rear-end, and part 2 being the intake and heads.  In other words, should I stick with the Isky until I get to my intake/heads, or should I swap it for the Lunati now?  Also, when I swap my heads and finally get confirmation on my CR and piston setup, should I target a specific CR to end up with when the new heads go on, considering all of the other changes I'm doing?

Dan, if it were mine : I would do the cam and converter first and give it a try to see how you like it. The heads & intake can be done later 

With aluminum heads you should target in the 10-10.5 static compression ratio area for best performance. 


Ron

[BSB67]

You do have some miss matched parts, and I'm not sure what you are looking for from your car.  But as an alternative to your current plan, maybe instead put that money into the motor with the goal of making more power.  For half the money that you are planning to spend, you could put on a good set of heads, and a nice custom solid lifter cam and simply make a bunch more hp, and not spend any money on gears, GV, and torque converter.  It comes down to personal preference.

[BananaDan]

Great.  I can't wait to wake her up with this project.  Is there a preferred stage to replace the cam considering I'm going to do this in two parts?  Part 1 being the TC, OD and rear-end, and part 2 being the intake and heads.  In other words, should I stick with the Isky until I get to my intake/heads, or should I swap it for the Lunati now?  Also, when I swap my heads and finally get confirmation on my CR and piston setup, should I target a specific CR to end up with when the new heads go on, considering all of the other changes I'm doing?

Dan, if it were mine : I would do the cam and converter first and give it a try to see how you like it. The heads & intake can be done later 

With aluminum heads you should target in the 10-10.5 static compression ratio area for best performance. 


Ron

Thanks!  I'll let you know how it works out...

You do have some miss matched parts, and I'm not sure what you are looking for from your car.  But as an alternative to your current plan, maybe instead put that money into the motor with the goal of making more power.  For half the money that you are planning to spend, you could put on a good set of heads, and a nice custom solid lifter cam and simply make a bunch more hp, and not spend any money on gears, GV, and torque converter.  It comes down to personal preference.

Thanks, I see where you're going but I'm looking forward to the OD unit though.   

[BananaDan]

I traded a few more e-mails with my engine builder, trying to see if he had been able to recover any of my build paperwork.  He now says that my paperwork has been lost/destroyed.     I can't complain too much, I didn't know or think to ask for this stuff when I was young and dumb and now he's retired.  He did however offer me to e-mail him questions and he will do what he can to remember.  I asked him what my pistons were and what my static compression was.  He said the pistons were TRW forged, but offered no part number.  He also said he recalled my C/R being 10.5:1.  That being said, does this alter my plans or cam choice at all, or just put me in better shape?

[firefighter3931]

I traded a few more e-mails with my engine builder, trying to see if he had been able to recover any of my build paperwork.  He now says that my paperwork has been lost/destroyed.     I can't complain too much, I didn't know or think to ask for this stuff when I was young and dumb and now he's retired.  He did however offer me to e-mail him questions and he will do what he can to remember.  I asked him what my pistons were and what my static compression was.  He said the pistons were TRW forged, but offered no part number.  He also said he recalled my C/R being 10.5:1.  That being said, does this alter my plans or cam choice at all, or just put me in better shape?

Dan if the pistons are forged and the claimed comp ratio is 10.5 then the pistons are the speedpro/trw #2355's 

Depending on the deckheight/head gasket/chamber volume it could be anywhere from low 9's to mid 10's so i'd say the 303 Lunati is a good choice. 

This is the same grind i recommended for Bill's 500+ HP 440 




Ron

[BananaDan]

Thanks Ron.  Yeah, I have the task of measuring my deck height stashed away for whenever my heads come off in the future. My heads are 906 heads with port and polish work if that helps.  I'm going to move on the 303 as planned. 

I'll keep you all updated.  I'm hoping this will be done by the end of March.

[firefighter3931]

Dan, just a "heads up" on your planned cam install : The Lunati Cam is a 3 bolt upper cam gear attachment so you might need a new timing set. The Comp Cams "Magnum" is an excellent double roller timing set and is economical. 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-2109/



Ron

[BananaDan]

Sure thing, I'll keep that in mind.  My invoice says "78225 roller timing chain set"  $42, which I get hits for on the websites of Advanced Auto Parts and AutoZone, but not on Summit.  It is a 3-bolt based on the invoice and the pictures (assuming the invoice is correct).  It looks like my Isky Mega 280 cam is available in both single bolt and three bolt options.  We'll see...

[BananaDan]

I dropped her off tonight!  I opted to hold off on the cam for now, I want to drive her this summer with this cam to see how she is.  So many people have told me that changing the TC and putting taller gears in the rear will wake her up so much, I want to see how this cam is at it's potential before dealing with the labor and trouble of a cam swap.  Plus, next winter I have a CH4B and new heads in the plans, so if I want to do a cam change I'll do it then. 

For now, here's what I'm having done:
-Re-gear the 3.23 rear to 3.91.
-New torque converter, Turbo Action 17805ST 10".
-Gear Vendors OD kit.
-New aluminum drive shaft.

[BananaDan]

I picked her up this Saturday and holy crap, what a difference!  Many many many thanks to Ron for guiding me through this adventure.   

The car is amazing now.  She is a total beast driving around town, but such a pussy cat on the highway with the GV OD.  She isn't much louder than my Jeep Liberty daily driver on the interstate cruising at 70 now, amazing.  It's gonna be a fun summer!

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Hey Dan sounds like Mike did a nice job!  Just remember to look in the rear view mirror for us slower folk on the highway now.....in case we break down

[1970Moparmann]

I picked her up this Saturday and holy crap, what a difference!  Many many many thanks to Ron for guiding me through this adventure.   

The car is amazing now.  She is a total beast driving around town, but such a pussy cat on the highway with the GV OD.  She isn't much louder than my Jeep Liberty daily driver on the interstate cruising at 70 now, amazing.  It's gonna be a fun summer!

Very cool!

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome Dan 

Like i said at the beginning of this thread the combo wasn't terribly mismatched....it just needed a little help. 

Glad to hear you're happy with the outcome ! 


Ron

[BananaDan]

Hey Dan sounds like Mike did a nice job!  Just remember to look in the rear view mirror for us slower folk on the highway now.....in case we break down

He did.  Mike's the man.

[TUFCAT]

I'm happy for you Dan!  Why the aluminum driveshaft? Is it a requirement for the GV unit or just a preference?  

I learned from many people that a great torque convertor will make all the difference in your build. The term "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" totally applies here!   

[BananaDan]

The GV OD is longer than the 727 tail shaft by a few inches, so my choice was to have my stock shaft shortened or have a new one made up.  Mike (Bonsanti, shop doing the work) said the cost would be about the same and he said he highly recommended aluminum over steel if going new.  He said it's more stable and easier to balance and he uses them on all of the F.A.S.T. cars he works on.  He's "the guy" around these parts, so I went with his advice.

[resq302]

Dan, is that HP Mike over in Morristown / Morris Twp there behind the jail?

[bill440rt]

  

The car sure sounded nice! 

Hey Dan sounds like Mike did a nice job!  Just remember to look in the rear view mirror for us slower folk on the highway now.....in case we break down

Yup. Stick together! 

[BananaDan]

Yes Brian, that's him.

[resq302]

Ive heard he does nice work.  I had one incident with him but he made it right by the time I left.  With all the good reviews Ive heard of him, I'd certainly use him again.