Performance definition on wheels, size, etc...

[Transporter]

For all of you wheel experts out there that are willing to take time and post back on this I'm thankful for that: 

                                                                 

Any Newbie will ask himself, "Everybody likes big wheels, but... What about performance? what are the characteristics of wheels that really add performance to your car, like traction, handling, stiff feel, etc..., why old cars had small wheel sets with a good performance and now all cars bring big wheels? What kind/type of whee should I consider for my charger, when I'm a new comer, generation Y guy that wants his ride to look cool (18'' + wheels) but also looking for a good performance"

[dangina]

18 is the biggest i would go - i reccomend 17 as the tire selection is huge and a hellofa lot cheaper. you will notice the big gains in traction the first ride...

[Piston_Freddy]

"Everybody likes big wheels

Wrong! Its illegal to put anything bigger than 15 under a Charger!

[Patronus]

Larger wheel = less sidewall = better cornering but a harsher ride

[Mike DC]

  
                                     
The problem with big (diameter) rims and tires is the weight that it brings.  That means a worse ride.  And when that weight is located way out at the edges of the circle (like with big rims and tire treads) it also brings more inertia to fight the responsiveness of the car.  


The 1960s tires had steel belts inside rather than modern plastic-based reinforcing cords.  That made the treads heavier, which discouraged anyone from running very large wide tires like we get today.  That, combined with the ride quality improvements of smaller tires, and the lower-looking stance of the car . . . so the factories used pretty small wheels/tires by modern standards in the 1960s.  Cars were also lighter in average weight back then which made everything a bit scaled down compared to today.

Now we've got nylon cords in the tires and that means the tires can be reasonably light even with larger sizes.  Ditto for the wheels now that aluminum wheels are standard on sports cars rather than cheap steelies.  So the size of the entire wheel/tire package has grown considerably in the last few decades.  The heavier curb weights of modern vehicles have also driven the trend; the entire vehicle is just "up-sizing" across the board lately.    

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The reason for the super-low-profile sidewalls on sports cars is just to take the lateral flex out of the tire.  That way the tread stays centered over the rim even when the wheel is laterally cornering hard.  It makes the rim easier to damage and it makes the ride quality worse however.  


When the rim gets bigger then eventually the rotating mass has too much inertia to be worth it.  It depends on the vehicle but I'm just saying there is a limit.  18" rims are better than 16" rims, but 20"+ rims usually aren't better than 18.  Larger vehicles have that limit at a higher point.  So big trucks might use 20" rims and even larger tires just fine, but that combo wouldn't do anything good for the performance of a Mazda Miata.  

[mikesbbody]

"Everybody likes big wheels

Wrong! Its illegal to put anything bigger than 15 under a Charger!

True, not everyone likes them in fact, I would say more Guy's prefer 15's but that's just a Guess my favourite combo is 17's on the front, and 18's on the rear for me, if it's under a 50 series tire, it's a "Rubber Band" tire each to his own I guess. It wasn't that long ago I would have said the exact thing Piston Freddy said but I changed my opinion in regards to larger wheels (never say never)
There is a Limit IMO before it becomes too much and for me, it's 18's 

[kamkuda]

I have a massive improvement in handling with the rims and rubber

[mikesbbody]

I have a massive improvement in handling with the rims and rubber

There you go someone who has had both   for me, the tires will always be 50's series Maybe...45's on the back and only if I had 18's on the back (or couldn't find a 50's series tire for a 18 inch Wheel) I can't wait to put my 17's on getting a bit sick of the 15's look and if they (the bigger wheels) handle like crap, then the 15's go back on no big deal.

[kamkuda]

17's all around.  Here is a picture of her.  Tires and rims alone made the best improvement in handling.  very stable at highway speeds (and better )

[mikesbbody]

Looks Awesome! 

[Transporter]

"Everybody likes big wheels

Wrong! Its illegal to put anything bigger than 15 under a Charger!

I really didn't notice when I said "everybody" but what I really meant was that most people (in my sourounding) likes big wheels, I'm sorry for saying that though. I'm in south America so its not Illegal down here, but thanks for taking the time to read.

   
                                       
The problem with big (diameter) rims and tires is the weight that it brings.  That means a worse ride.  And when that weight is located way out at the edges of the circle (like with big rims and tire treads) it also brings more inertia to fight the responsiveness of the car. 


The 1960s tires had steel belts inside rather than modern plastic-based reinforcing cords.  That made the treads heavier, which discouraged anyone from running very large wide tires like we get today.  That, combined with the ride quality improvements of smaller tires, and the lower-looking stance of the car . . . so the factories used pretty small wheels/tires by modern standards in the 1960s.  Cars were also lighter in average weight back then which made everything a bit scaled down compared to today.

Now we've got nylon cords in the tires and that means the tires can be reasonably light even with larger sizes.  Ditto for the wheels now that aluminum wheels are standard on sports cars rather than cheap steelies.  So the size of the entire wheel/tire package has grown considerably in the last few decades.  The heavier curb weights of modern vehicles have also driven the trend; the entire vehicle is just "up-sizing" across the board lately.   

-------------------------------------


The reason for the super-low-profile sidewalls on sports cars is just to take the lateral flex out of the tire.  That way the tread stays centered over the rim even when the wheel is laterally cornering hard.  It makes the rim easier to damage and it makes the ride quality worse however.   


When the rim gets bigger then eventually the rotating mass has too much inertia to be worth it.  It depends on the vehicle but I'm just saying there is a limit.  18" rims are better than 16" rims, but 20"+ rims usually aren't better than 18.  Larger vehicles have that limit at a higher point.  So big trucks might use 20" rims and even larger tires just fine, but that combo wouldn't do anything good for the performance of a Mazda Miata. 

Thank you MIKE, your post was really good, help to understand better, I'm not really thinking on huge wheels but certainly I'm going for 17 all around as an upgrade from the 15's I have at the moment with a sidewall of 50 I think...

Thank you all for taking the time to read and replay, please if you have any opinion or want to add information about "X" Tires + "Y" Rims = "Z" Performance, would be great.

[Mike DC]

No prob, it's an interesting subject to me. 


Just personal opinion - I like the way 15" and 16" rims look on these cars.  IMHO 16" is the most under-appreciated size.

I remember reading a test in a modern car magazine like "Car & Driver" or something like that, and they found that 17" wheels produced a faster lap time than anything either larger or smaller.  But they might have been testing on a smaller/lighter weight vehicle than our Chargers so don't take that figure as totally gospel.  There's probably nothing wrong with going up to 18" on our cars.


Tires -

Really, the best theoretical performance (cornering at least) would be achieved by having absolutely no tire sidewall whatsoever.  But that wouldn't last 5 minutes in real world streets.  The rims would get bent on bumps too much.  So the amount of tire sidewall height is pretty much a question of how frequently you're willing to risk wheel damage, and what ride quality you're willing to put up with.  (The area you live in may also affect that choice too.)

Take a look at the factory wheel/tire combos.  For the most part they keep a few inches of sidewall height on everything, even the sports cars (except stuff like limited edition hi-po Corvettes, etc).  You could look to the factory sports car sizes as an indicator of where the balance between performance & real-world damage lies.  The more dedicated (and expensive) the sports car, the smaller the tire sidewalls tend to be.   

[Cooter]

18" plus wheels on an older Musclecar looks "tarded" IMO...Just because "Everybody" likes "big wheels", doesn't mean I have to be "tarded" like the croud...I could slap the hell outta Chip Foose for even starting this hs*t...Makes the cars look like Hot Wheels toys....NOT COOL...

[Piston_Freddy]

18" plus wheels on an older Musclecar looks "tarded" IMO...Just because "Everybody" likes "big wheels", doesn't mean I have to be "tarded" like the croud...I could slap the hell outta Chip Foose for even starting this hs*t...Makes the cars look like Hot Wheels toys....NOT COOL...

You took the words right out of my mouth!

[kamkuda]

18" plus wheels on an older Musclecar looks "tarded" IMO...Just because "Everybody" likes "big wheels", doesn't mean I have to be "tarded" like the croud...I could slap the hell outta Chip Foose for even starting this hs*t...Makes the cars look like Hot Wheels toys....NOT COOL...

To each his own.  I like the look and performance of the larger rims and stiffer sidewall. So do many.  Best handling

I have friends who love the 15 inch rims but hate Ralley Rims.

Some love Dog Dishes.

Each following a different crowd. LOL

I like the 15's on my Road Runner but for different reasons

[HPP]

If you could get 15" tires with 4 ply sidewalls and sticky compounds in radial construction, they would grip as well as any 17", but such a creature doesn't exist any longer on an inexpensive, widely available, 15" tire.  You can get 15" tires that handle, but they are getting expesnive and only found at specialized dealers.

I read the C&D article on plus sizing tires. Changes like these would be more pronounced on a smaller, less powerful car and we likely wouldn't "notice" the problem on a V8 Mopar, but the impact is still the same; with no other suspension changes, simply going to greater than 17" sizes will slow down a cars accelleration, braking, and turning performance. These changes can be compensated for with differing shock vavling, bigger spring rates, and lighter brake components, but I think that just shows how things can easily snoball with only one change.

IMO, 17" sizes are the ones that can most eaily be made to look good and retain better than average overall performance with being reasonbly priced.

[Transporter]

No prob, it's an interesting subject to me. 


Just personal opinion - I like the way 15" and 16" rims look on these cars.  IMHO 16" is the most under-appreciated size.

I remember reading a test in a modern car magazine like "Car & Driver" or something like that, and they found that 17" wheels produced a faster lap time than anything either larger or smaller.  But they might have been testing on a smaller/lighter weight vehicle than our Chargers so don't take that figure as totally gospel.  There's probably nothing wrong with going up to 18" on our cars.


Tires -

Really, the best theoretical performance (cornering at least) would be achieved by having absolutely no tire sidewall whatsoever.  But that wouldn't last 5 minutes in real world streets.  The rims would get bent on bumps too much.  So the amount of tire sidewall height is pretty much a question of how frequently you're willing to risk wheel damage, and what ride quality you're willing to put up with.  (The area you live in may also affect that choice too.)

Take a look at the factory wheel/tire combos.  For the most part they keep a few inches of sidewall height on everything, even the sports cars (except stuff like limited edition hi-po Corvettes, etc).  You could look to the factory sports car sizes as an indicator of where the balance between performance & real-world damage lies.  The more dedicated (and expensive) the sports car, the smaller the tire sidewalls tend to be.   

Thanks again MIKE, its a very interesting subject for me as well, I actually live in a city where the roads are not very good, I mean, we have many holes that if you are not carefull with a side wall 40 or less you could lose your tire and bend the rim, so IMHO my decision lies between 16 or 17 no more or less than that, I really want to thank you an everyone for adding info to this subject.

18" plus wheels on an older Musclecar looks "tarded" IMO...Just because "Everybody" likes "big wheels", doesn't mean I have to be "tarded" like the crowd...I could slap the hell outta Chip Foose for even starting this hs*t...Makes the cars look like Hot Wheels toys....NOT COOL...

To each his own.  I like the look and performance of the larger rims and stiffer sidewall. So do many.  Best handling

I have friends who love the 15 inch rims but hate Really Rims.

Some love Dog Dishes.

Each following a different crowd. LOL

I like the 15's on my Road Runner but for different reasons

Totally agreed.

18" plus wheels on an older Musclecar looks "tarded" IMO...Just because "Everybody" likes "big wheels", doesn't mean I have to be "tarded" like the crowd...I could slap the hell outta Chip Foose for even starting this hs*t...Makes the cars look like Hot Wheels toys....NOT COOL...

I respect Chip foose and I think most of his work are master piece of art, and they belong to a certain crowd of people, and everyone should respect others.

As for my conclusion I'll get a 16 - 17 wheels to my charger because the types of road I have in my country and the performance/look I'm seeking.

[Mike DC]

So put 16" on the front and 17" on the rear.  Can't go wrong with the looks of that. 

[mikesbbody]

On a Big Car like a Charger, 14-15's look way too small IMO I think it's about a combo of Rim Size, side wall height, and how the Car sits not too High or Low. 15's will always be the "standard" size but I think they look better on a slightly smaller Mopar (E body, A body) 

[Transporter]

So put 16" on the front and 17" on the rear.  Can't go wrong with the looks of that. 

I WILL ! 

[Nacho-RT74]

Just personal opinion - I like the way 15" and 16" rims look on these cars.  IMHO 16" is the most under-appreciated size.

Actually I think not really underestimate, like really undestocked them ot tires shops, so normally you'll run on more easy to find tires. 17" are easier I think.

at least Locally ( Venezuela ) 17" tires are a little bit easier than 16"

[Long Island RT]

This is a great topic and I would say the wheel choice for our chargers are the most though provoking.

my :
All the focus is on rim diameter, but when your talking performance it should be on wheel diameter/width and weight. Even the tire "series" is not comparable because it's a percentage of the width.

[Nacho-RT74]

Even the tire "series" is not comparable because it's a percentage of the width.

Yea, I wonder why everybody talks about "series" when you can't compare between them being a relative value, not absolute

[HPP]

There also are certain sizes within diameters that are more likely to be available for longer because the OEMs used them in production . For example, 255 were used on a lot of mustangs and camaros through the 90s. Similarly, 275 and 335 where on many vettes and vipers. Any of these sizes will continue to be widely available as other sizes disappear.  I'd almost suggest sizing up the tires you want first, then finding rims that fit those tires. Rims are much easier to alter sizing on and get in to manufacturing than tires. In greatly simplified terms, all you need to make a wheel is a block of billet and a cnc. Producing a tire is considerably more capital intensive not something just anyone can start doing.

[chargerhunter]

18" plus wheels on an older Musclecar looks "tarded" IMO...Just because "Everybody" likes "big wheels", doesn't mean I have to be "tarded" like the croud...I could slap the hell outta Chip Foose for even starting this hs*t...Makes the cars look like Hot Wheels toys....NOT COOL...

To each his own.  I like the look and performance of the larger rims and stiffer sidewall. So do many.  Best handling

I have friends who love the 15 inch rims but hate Ralley Rims.

Some love Dog Dishes.

Each following a different crowd. LOL

I like the 15's on my Road Runner but for different reasons

Please post your tire and wheel specs. I'm about to buy and I love the stance your Mopar has!