How many '69 500s were actually built???

[nascarxx29]

Dan was that the beware of that car .That was for sale as a daytona.With the 157*** .It was emailed info to me.(  I got another info emailed from a guy in the charger registry that says  and I quote he saw a daytona at a show with XS and not XX It reads to the following hey I saw a daytona ST Louis couple weeks ago with XS.But being the old fart I am I cant remember .Dave do you recall ever seeing a XS Daytona)  .I dont own a 69 500 or spent as much time as I have on the daytonas . I have seen some 500s out there that are now daytonas.As people know the XX and not the daytona VS 500 number sequences differs .Ive read for years in the archive newsletter about the XS XX 500 mistake .On the manafacture statement of origin .Then the mistake would be carried on over to the title

[69_500]

The XX29L9B157 car was not in a Daytona trim. It was done as a 500, which it is, but it doens't have the correct motor in the car. It now has a 528 crate HEMI in it. Gorgeous ride if I may say so.

I have seen a car that is a HEMI 500 done up as a Daytona, that has been that way since the 70's. ITs VIN is very early on in the 500's and way too early to be a Daytona. Very low mileage car as well.

[69_500]

One more thing I was noticing when Dave posted the list of 500's that were supposed to be sold in NJ, I noticed some repeated, and also that one of the VIN's is missing a digit. XX29L9B21710, is that supposed to be 210710? or 217100? or what?

[nascarxx29]

No it does show 2 cars going to different dealers.I checked my email my warning wasnt for the 157 you showed I dont believe .Its for this one

  XX29L9B155758 = title = altered
XP29G9B155758 = original car

Car is in CA, being advertised as Daytona.   Has fiberglass nose and wing.   Owner says it's "all correct and original, and all Daytona's were made that way".   Car has no fender tag, broadcast sheet, or dash plate.   Car is not even a Charger







The NJ list has a 210710 At Newark and 210711 At Ed Van Ness.The repeated vin is Demaio and Newark .Unless chrysler goofed up and made 2 cars with same vin number.Ive seen a untouched car have its dash vin riveted upside down.But so far no 2 cars with same   vin as of yet

[hemigeno]

Gene I know you looked at the list for Daytona's a lot. did you notice any cars with a higher VIN number that have a lower VON number than an earlier car? Reason I ask is because some of the 500's have VIN's of 238xxx with a lower VON than a car with a VIN starting 224xxx.      I can think of one case like this off the top of my head, a car built on 9/27 has a VON ending in 088, and a car built on 9/20 has a VON ending in 162. So how does that work? Car 110610 has a VON ending with 000, but I haven't seen another car with 001, or 002, or 003. I have seen the car with 004, and 005. With 004 being the first AT car I have seen. And tell me this, do you guys really think they built 200+ HEMI 500's?   Here is another case in point MY VIN is XX29L9B224393, with a VON of 925332 where as 69Charger500's stated his VON is 925303 with a late VIN but same build date as my car. Cars with similar VINs to his car, or at least close are mostly built on C04, with VON's in the 9255xx range. I haven't ever figured out a pattern to any of these VON's on these cars.

Danny, I was wondering when you were going to weigh in on this subject, and/or what team of wild horses had prevented such...

I've been going through the entire Daytona Shipping List again for the last six months or so to confirm my keypunch is correct, and to complete the handwritten listings that were too tough to decipher from the original Xerox copy list.  The series of lists being printed in the WingedWarriors newsletters is helping me, but you can't take the information in there as 100% accurate either.  What they're printing is a rendering of some further documentation they have, and I would love to pore over their originals indepth at some point.  I'm getting a WHOLE lot closer to having a reliable database of Daytona information though.

To answer your questions:

There are a ton of cars with higher VINs but lower SO#s.  They started out fairly organized, and the cars with build dates of the first major Daytona production day (April 27th 1969, when they made almost 100 of them!) have SO numbers ranging from 926000 to 926099, and very few (if any) SO Numbers in this sequence went unused.  The VIN's from this build date tended to be grouped together somewhat, but they did not follow exactly according to the order of the SO numbers.  Groups of 10 or so sequential VINs and SO#s would be interspersed and interrupted with other small groups.  For that particular day's production though, the SO numbers were very much in a pattern, and the VIN's in somewhat of a pattern.

Once you get past that first day of production, all bets are off.  The VIN's were all over the place, as are the Scheduled Production Dates.  You might have a few May cars with SO numbers behind a couple of June cars.  They are all jumbled up, with some VIN's or SO numbers occasionally grouped together.

What I did notice is that the geographic area of the dealer itself played some role as to what the SO number was.  Chrysler had their dealers assigned to geographic regions, and each region had a number.  When you look at the handwritten Daytona Shipping List, the prefix in front of the dealer number indicated which region that particular dealer was from.  There were clumps of cars from the same region (but from different dealers) that would have sequential SO numbers.  These clumps (after the 1st day's production) did not group all Daytonas from that particular region, but you could see several were usually found together when I sorted the list by SO#.  There were two groups of SO numbers for Canadian cars, so they didn't even group those together with sequential SO numbers, even though their VIN's are all sequential.

I'm still in the middle of making sure that I have all the information keypunched correctly, filling in my omitted/missing information, and then trying to see if any consistent pattern appears.  It's way too early to draw any conclusions just yet.  Until I can go through the original list that Sue & Ed have, or until the entire series of Daytona Invoices is published, I wouldn't think we could make any definitive statements about what is or is not a pattern with SO numbers, etc.

I don't know if this answers your question or not, but it's what I've observed with Daytonas anyway.

Geno

[Ghoste]

What's your opinion on the 500's then based on the Daytona info? (not really a fair question but we're all just guessing here really anyway)

Oh, and when are you guys going to get together and write a small text on all of this?

[hemigeno]

What's your opinion on the 500's then based on the Daytona info? (not really a fair question but we're all just guessing here really anyway)

Oh, and when are you guys going to get together and write a small text on all of this?

Ghoste, I wouldn't hold my breath that you can tell how many 500's were made just from studying the Special Order numbers. There's probably no set pattern for the 500's S.O. numbers any more than there is/was for the Daytonas.  Was that what you were asking?

[Ghoste]

Yeah somewhat.  I was wondering if you personally, draw any conclusions about the 500's based on what you know about the Daytona, so yes, I guess that answers my question.

[Charger Aficionado]

  This guy said he knew of one that got crushed...    I wonder if he knows anything about it, or if he is just full of it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Charger-500-Tail-Light_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34207QQitemZ4601628402QQrdZ1

[hemi68charger]

Wow !!!! Seems this C500 thread has struck ALOT of discussion............  Whew !!!! All I know is that C500's are the first and rarest.. 

Oh well....... It's amazing that so few people have, maybe all the info, and hold it... Mike, is that what you're saying? I guess knowledge is power and power is money.......  But, after all these years the untold true story hasn't come out yet? I guess we need to get CSI Mopar in on this....

Man, that was a short reply for me..       Guess I'm tired from Reserve Duty.............

Troy

[nascarxx29]

The XS VS XX vin issue has been around a long time.That it was a mistake on factory titlle of orign the manafacture statement of origin.And motor vehicle would issue titles with that mistake carried on that typo.By following by a dodge 691/2 lift off hood car they have code M for the 440-6 in the dash vin .And the E68 383 engine code on fender tag.So they went to the effort of making M coded dash vin plates.As to the 69 charger 500 and they were under pressure and deadlines to finish .Might explain early cars having XS..But if they followed the same procedure as the 69 1/2 cars .All the 69 500 might have been XX on the dash.And XS on the fender tag.But who knows.Its still in the works on this thread.The 69 500 has earned a well deserved heritage.But we would like to know more about them as to how many really built. And engineering details that took place at creative .For example the 69 daytona there was found from creative a 2 page conversion list of details.We basically know it started as a 69 RT charger but not to much else.As you can still find vacuum hoses and vacuum cans in some Ive seen.That would have been used for the 69 charger hideaways lights .But as the 69 500 recieved a 68 coronet grille in place of the 69 charger grille.It also got the flush back window and a pillars.Like its next redesign used on the 69 daytona.A wing and nose added to the 69 500 platform car .And the 69 daytona was born.If i wasnt for Ford Cyclone and the Tallegeda breathing down on chrysler in the racing days .And pushing them into new designs.As they need to flush the 69 charger tunnel back window and ad the a pillar mouldings,To get more aerodynamic.Dont think our cars would have been built as they were needed for factory VS factory competion

[chargervert]

Not for nothin guys, I know we are car guys,and honest people,but there are way too many VIN numbers flying around on this thread! With the current value of these cars,and how easy they are to steal,I don't like the numbers being posted on the internet! I could steal a 69 500,or Daytona, with a 2 foot peice of wire,and a quarter,to jump the relay with! A 70 is just a little more involved! Thats why I haven't registered my cars with any of the regestries! I know that us guys who are discussing these cars,use the numbers for Identifing,and authenticating these cars,but there may be a lot of less scrupilous people reading the threads! In some states I could write a bill of sale,and register one of these cars,using the VIN numbers you are posting,and it would be your word against mine,whoose car it is! May the best lawyer win! Think about the story of the wheel standing General Lee! FYI!!!!!!!

[Ghoste]

True.  But a lot of this info could easily be obtained at any of the many car shows these vehicles have attended in recent years.  Which, of course, is how most of us got the info in the first place.

[chargervert]

Yeah Ghost, your right, but were making it even easier,the crooks don't even have to leave the house! Do you remember those Maryland boys who stole all those cars from Carlsile! Those boys made it look easy! One of the cars was a 68 Hemi SuperBee! I would sure hate to lose something like that! I work at a prison,that accounts for my trust no one attitude! Crooks are lazy,if they weren't they would just get a job,and go to work for what they want like the reat of us! There are people using the very same computers to steal peoples identity,while we are discussing this! If they want your Mopar,they will take that too! I'm around these people every day,after enough years you start to think like them,only us honest people can use this knowledge to defend ourselfs!

[nascarxx29]

Ive walked up to countless cars over the years at various shows like mopar nats for every year.And the numbers are out in the open to record.And in the early days of the number of clubs I was in They published owners vins state and the plate in early wingcar club newsletters.And at a show if a dash was covered.The hood was up to see the numbers on the fender tag.Or record down the plates.And nowadays you can go on to barett jackson and check past auctions and the vins are there as well I didnt start this trend .Also I have the superbird #1920 list and #501 shipment lists all with vins.And all through out the internet I see these vins fender tags out there.It sad about that 68 Hemi car lost it was moparts user limellite aeros car.There is still to this day a stolen never found XX29L9B381547 B5 blue daytona of DR Stuart Springer.That was in a locked garage stolen in 89-90.There was even a story in MCG where some guys were chased down in a reported stolen white 69 charger.That was recovered and the center of ignition switch was ripped out.On a car that doesnt have a locking steering column.Numbers out there our not .This stuff sorry to say will still continue to take place.Its the bad end of the hobby.And current rising values attract this bad attention

[hemigeno]

Chargervert, I disagree that discussing some VIN's as we have been is putting the owners of these cars in danger of having them stolen.  While I admit that there is some slight chance that a person could piece together enough information to use in a fraudulent manner, there is a whole internet world of other methods and means at their disposal which would give them much greater chances of finding whatever they're looking for in the way of automobiles.  

Your example of the happenings at Carlisle a few years ago has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.  If anything, that example would serve as a reason never to take our cars out of their garages for fear of having them spied and identified as something of value to be stolen.  I will willingly take that chance.  If someone wants to steal my cars, they could certainly do that (you're right, it doesn't take much to hot-wire one of these).  If they want it that badly, they will find a way to take it, and discussions in a forum such as this won't really enable them to take action that they wouldn't have a thousand easier ways to accomplish anyway.

I hear you on the depths that the human race is capable of stooping to.  I own a commercial/industrial construction company, and have done three jobs in Missouri Sate Prisons, and regularly work around Missouri's Probation and Parole Offices.  I have more than a few stories to tell about what people are capable of, as I'm sure you do as well.

There's no obligation for anyone to post their cars' information on here, or with the various Registries - even though I know that most of the Registry guys wouldn't think of divulging the information entrusted to them.  I just hate to see others being openly discouraged from doing so.  IMHO that only serves to hurt the hobby, rather than "protecting" it.  

If anything, we should all be encouraging one another to make sure your insurance levels are carried high enough, the right type of policies are written, and the cars well-documented so that when the crooks do strike (as I'm sure they would even if the internet and registries all shut down tomorrow) the owner of the car would be properly compensated for their loss.  

I've actually been able to use certain threads about similar cars on both this site and Moparts to help establish the value of both my cars with my insurance carriers.  My point is:  Suppressing the exchange of information can have just as potentially harmful an affect as you are indicating currently exists.

Just another opinion from the opposite point of view...

[/rant]

[chargervert]

Dave, we have discussed this before, I'm not trying to piss on everyones parade, I'm just saying we should be a little more careful with VINs. Why make it easy! I just don't want to see anyone loose an irreplacble car!!

[chargervert]

I don't want to mension names, but on one thread the name,address,phone number,and VIN number,of a friend of mines Daytona,was posted on one of the threads, Anyone who read that thread could have gone right to the guys house,called the phone number to make sure the guy wasn't home,and made off with his car,that has been in the family since 1973! I really appreciate the info that yoyu guys share with everyone! Its extrmely facinating,But I don't think it is necessary to post the entire number to make your point! Thats just my opinion!

[nascarxx29]

These days it doesnt take much to zero in on etc info.Go on the internet and use a street name
etc to gain info reverse looks up with names and more done on the home PC.Or see a car outside and get the address on a internet look up .In turn will get you a phone number and a map from there to the address. .And vin number issue may seem like a problem.As if somones determined to steal a car.The internet offers up a big head start.But
chargervert I do see and understand your point

[chargervert]

I'm just lookin out for us guys,Dave. To me posting that much info,is like giving out your social security number! If you did that, the identity theifs would have about 30 credit cards out in your name in the amount of time it takes to read this response! When I type a VIN,I use the ***** for the last 3 or 4 digits of the sequence number! We know what cars we are talking about just by the first seven digits. Maybe I think a little different,because I work around criminals all day! But I would rather be careful,than sorry!

[nascarxx29]

This 69 hemi 500 a original automatic car#2243** .Some along the line it was changed to a 4 speed.But the good news is the # matching number automatic trans was located not long ago.It was once owned by P Halidman and pictured in automotive quartely .And also this board users 69 500s dad owned it in the 80-s.And this 500 resides near me sitting in a garage.On this page from 1976 street cars magazine shown bellow.It might of been in the hand before Pete H .I recall maybe Steve Hargrove.This is the magazine I mentioned to 69 500.I have somewhere

[hemigeno]

Chargervert, there's a difference between being cautious with VIN's, and flat-out discouraging people to send any information whatsoever into the Registries, as you have already done.  

I would ask you to explain how even listing a VIN in a thread puts a car in danger of being stolen, much less registering a car with a no-access registry such as the '69 and '70 Charger Registries.  There's a plethora of VIN information available from a number of different venues, not just here.  I will grant you that it's not necessary to put the owner's full name and distinguishable location out there, but listing a VIN is hardly the key ingredient to the theft of a car (pun intended).  A trip to any car show would yield as many VIN's (and more importantly, license plate numbers!!) as a thieving musclecar crook could ever want.  To me, no specific location/identification = no problem.

If you carry your logic to its direct conclusion, you should never title or register your car with any State DMV.  Why?  Because you then make that information potentially available and someone might use it to steal your car.  I refuse to live in fear.

I hope you won't continue to discourage people from helping the hobby out through the various Registries...  IMHO that is a disservice to all of us.

[nascarxx29]

There are these little tiitle companys that advertise all over.And just ask for that kind of info .And will send you paperwork or maybe even a out of state a title .But it would be a duplicate .To ones original paperwork if it came down to prove who claims to own whoms car.Are most likely everyones concern

[69_500]

My thoughts on it are like this. I have no problem listing my own VIN or fender tag information. Because that is my car. I will refrain from posting anyone else's full VIN from now on in an open forum if it bothers some people. I would like to see a complete registry for cars such as 500's but I really don't think that is going to be possible. Too many of the cars are unaccounted for, and too many of these cars were probably crushed many years ago. Many people can't distinguish anything different from a 500 and a 69 R/T at first glance anyways, or they think its modified by the owner not a factory car so they pay no attention to it.

I don't see the harm in someone listing the VIN to a car or its VON if they don't divulge where the car is located. IE if i said car 224393 is a 440 Charger 500, does that tell you anything else? NO, it doesn't tell you that it is my car and in Indianapolis Indiana that is for sure. So if you really wanted to spend the $15 per state and take a shot at all 50 just to find one car, then I say that you are willing to do anything else to get the car too, so not much I can do will deter you anyways. I realize there is a chance one day someone could steal my car, but someoe could also break into my house and kill my child. But does t hat keep me from telling people on here that his name is Dakota Liebrandt? No.

[hemigeno]

Yes, I understood before how title fraud can occur, but that still does not mean that a car is then stolen as a direct result of that information.  Crooks can still find a car, and steal it.  Not an impossible task, grant you.  BUT, stealing it with the intention of using a fraudulent title to publicly maintain possession wouldn't stand court scrutiny if push ever came to shove.  The situation with the wheel-standing General Lee had a whole lot more to it than someone finding a VIN and having a bogus title made up.  I've read the stories too, years back.

I'll take this challenge any day.  If anyone wants to try and take VIN XS29J9G210100, bring it on.  Same goes for XX29L9B412543.