How many '69 500s were actually built???

[chargervert]

My 500 has a december 4th build date,and the Vin is in the 239,000s.

[69Charger500]

Wow,

The known to exist numbers I have from him are way lower...     see lower right had corner...

[Ghoste]

But that's dated from before his white book update.  He must have changed his mind?

[69Charger500]

Oh...   something just occurred to me that is so obvious it was staring me right in the face.   If you had a list of rare cars that no one else had, and you knew how easy and relatively cheap it is to run DMV searches, then releasing the list would cut in on your potential action, right?   Say there are 100 missing cars, and DMV searches now run an average of $10 per state (they are $7 in Michigan).   The cars were shipped to say 50 states.   For $50,000 you have a darn good chance of finding some really rare cars that have been lost for a long time....   That is a lot of money, but I would bet if you worked your way through the record searches, it would finance itself pretty quickly...

What about that???

[Ghoste]

I don't know?  I don't think he's that nefarious.

[69Charger500]

And, my friends , that is exactly how he said he found his 1 of 2 Hemi Coronet 440.......

[Ghoste]

And I humbly offer my retraction.

[69Charger500]

Ouch.....     Now I just remembered the list is a shipping list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It isn't necessarily 100 cars X 50 States X $10.   It is more like 100 cars X $10, 'cause he knows where each car was originally shipped!!!!!!!!!!!   Not so many cars leave their home states, right?   Some do, but I would bet most do not......

By the way Ghoste, that was a classic Reply!!

[69Charger500]

Also wouldn't hurt to be the keeper of thousands of lost Broadcast Sheets, eh??   Of course you would reunite them with their rightful owner, but what about all the others?   Especially, Hemis, Aero Cars, Six Packs, T/As, AARS, etc, etc, etc.......

I have only run DMV records on cars I've owned, but if I knew something was out there, why not, it's a free country.  My '71 Challenger 383 Magnum convertible came from Tennessee originally.  I wrote their DMV a nice letter about 17 years ago inquiring if they had any info.  They wrote me back a nice letter stating it would cost me $15 'cause there was so much info to copy and mail.  I sent my check, and about two weeks later received the vehicle's complete history, including the original bill of sale, the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin, Loan records, title records, and registration records, about 20 pages in all!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ghoste]

Well, I have my own broadcast sheet story about him but this isn't the forum or the thread so I'll share it another time.  As to keeping them, well, we did discuss this about a week ago I suppose but I still think that if he was so concerned about helping get these sheets to their owners, he'd co-operate more with the groups that are specifically geared to certain models.  Maybe I'm speaking out of turn and it isn't as easy as that.
So, have we come to any agreements as to how many 500's were built?   hahahahahhahhahahaha

[69Charger500]

I am now convinced his new numbers are correct, and he has verified them by doing exactly what I suggested, and maybe hooked a few people up with some rare cars along the way.   How else do the "Known to Exist" numbers jump by 250-300 cars in 7 years???

Probably 90% of those "new" Known to Exist" cars, are "Known to Exist" in Salvage Title heaven..........................

[nascarxx29]

I tried researching my own car by the DMV historical services.And they didnt go that far back.I know FL I think also MO not sure how the other states operate.Fl and MO can trace your car back to the MSO manafactures statement of origin selling dealer and past known owners.By what about other states like mine that offer limited years of research from the DMV.How could someone compile a accurate numbers of cars.Left in existence.Unless they have access to some kind of factory list

[Ghoste]

Well, I'm going to pull a Galen here.  I think it's still the long accepted number.  The higher number seems to exist only because he printed it.  No other evidence has been offered whatsoever.  His philosophy has always been that until he physically verifies that a car exists, it does not exist.  I don't see where he has verified the existence of these car and until he (or someone) does, I remain with the 392 camp.

[hemihead]

I go with the 392 number.I don't give a hoot about what Mr. Govier says.If he has a list of known C500 VINs then wouldn't that make it easier( and less costly) to search DMV's for the missing ones? I don't or can't believe all C500's survived anyway.So if you say that 584 were built minus how many are known left how many does that leave?Close to 392?Hmmmmmm.
Another thing i always wondered about,you see in MCG Galen asking people to GIVE him info about certain things but he CHARGES people to give them info.And if he really was a good Mopar guy, why doesn't he GIVE the broadcast sheets and info he has on cars that exist to the current owners.I guess just someone else with their own motives at heart.

[Ghoste]

He will give the broadcast sheets to the owners and he does do that free of charge.  I have to give him credit for that.

[hemihead]

I stand corrected.

[69Charger500]

Ok, Well I suppose anything regarding production totals of Chrysler vehicles must be substantiated by Chrysler itself.  I will contact the folks over at Chrysler Historical this morning and see if they want to help out the hobby on this matter.

Does anyone know the origin of the 392 number???

[Ghoste]

You know what?  I have no idea.  I guess I stand by it because it is the number I have seen used so many times for so many years but I cannot recall where I first heard or read it.  It must have come from Chrysler at one time but I certainly don't know that.

[hemigeno]

Does anyone know the origin of the 392 number???

If you look at the "Nascar Registry" letter from GG that Mike posted, it says that the totals of C500's are "rumored to be" 392.   That is well in excess of the number known to exist at that time.   You can add up his totals for 440 (262) and Hemicars (64+66) and come to the 392 figure exactly.

I agree with what Dave is saying, I don't think each and every state keeps its records back that far.   Maybe if someone had done this legwork just a few years after the cars were made, it would have been possible to verify each car titled in a particular state.   Texas is one that I know for a fact doesn't keep records going back much over 10 years.   I would dearly love to have information going back earlier than 1984-5 on my Hemicar (it sold new in TX, and I first checked with them in 1998).

I have to believe that Galen's new-found knowledge came from some other source than checking with DMV records.   If he's using a top-secret Shipping List to come up with these new totals, that's fine.   However, I don't agree with using such a list as justification for stating that each car is known-to-exist.   That's a whole different ballgame.  

Just thinking here...   Do you think Chrysler would have generated a stack of MSO's to use as verification for NASCAR?   That may be why the documentation was never released, since that's of a more sensitive nature.   AND, if they did that, would Chrysler have been above padding that stack of MSO's with cars whose VIN's were slightly altered (to suit their purposes, such as the XS to XX fiasco), or were never produced in the first place (which I don't think is as likely)?

[nascarxx29]

Thats a good question how to validate the origins of the long accepted #392 number .As 500 was the homolgation rule required number by nascar at that time.As for the superbird for example   the #1920 or the 1935 number was suppose to originate from 2 cars for every dealer chrysler had . So how did they arrive at that 392 given number?

[Ghoste]

Well, I think that goes back to the issue of the cars becoming obsolete as soon as the Talladega arrived.  Chrysler may have fudged numbers to NASCAR with every intention of building the cars and just stopped completing 500 conversions when they realized it was pointless to follow the rule anyway.

[69Charger500]

Ok, I have spoken with the folks over at the Historical Department.   We discussed the issue, and why it is important to the hobby to get some clarification (we, the real enthusiasts, are after all, the ones who have kept these cars alive at considerable expense and effort over all these years).   They are going to look back at their records to see what's there.   They have also said they will contact Galen about the "List," and request a copy and some form of substantiation of where it came from.

Stay tuned...

p.s.   regarding DMV records/searches, Michigan only goes back 10 years as well, and California doesn't release them at all, unless directed to do so by a court order.   As of the late '80s, Tennessee had full histories available.   These are all I know of personally, as this is where my cars have originated from.

I would highly recommend to all of you, if you have not already requested your vehicle's history from that state's DMV where it was sold new (or later as used), do so immediately.   The longer you wait, the more unlikely it is the information will be retained.   Especially since paper copies have long since become obsolete............

I have no doubt some of you will find a wealth of information you did not know even existed, that has been sitting in some storage cabinet for 30-some years....

[hemi68charger]

Ok, I have spoken with the folks over at the Historical Department.  We discussed the issue, and why it is important to the hobby to get some clarification (we, the real enthusiasts, are after all, the ones who have kept these cars alive at considerable expense and effort over all these years).  They are going to look back at their records to see what's there.  They have also said they will contact Galen about the "List," and request a copy and some form of substantiation of where it came from.

Stay tuned...

Is this the potential de-throne?...  hahahaha    Just kidding..........

It would be AWESOME if this information could become public or at the very least given to those individuals that have a longtime history of promotion and preservation like Doug and the Georges.....

I'm crossing my fingers......... 

69Charger500: I applauded your connections and drive to get the answers... If not, then at least you tried for ALL of us.......

Troy

[Ghoste]

I'd love to see the look on Galen's face when Chrysler contacts him and wants proof of his number and copy of any "secret list" he might have.   

[hemigeno]

Well, I think that goes back to the issue of the cars becoming obsolete as soon as the Talladega arrived.   Chrysler may have fudged numbers to NASCAR with every intention of building the cars and just stopped completing 500 conversions when they realized it was pointless to follow the rule anyway.

I don't think they stopped production on the C500 because of a perceived inferiority to the Talladega/Cyclone.   The 500 was not a bad car aerodynamically, although it doesn't hold a candle to the Daytona or Superbird.   Charlie Glotzbach told me himself that he lost the '69 Daytona 500 race because of tire strategy - he got slingshotted on the last lap by LeeRoy Yarbrough who had fresher tires.   He said he could run all day long with the Fords, and pass them when he wanted/needed to.   Four of the top six starting spots (including the pole, #2 and #4) in the '69 Daytona 500 were Charger500's.   It was not a slow car.

And oh-by-the-way, the street version's production had ceased and the 500+ cars were already reported to NASCAR when that Daytona race was run, or NASCAR would never have allowed the 500 on the track.

They may have slowed their production effort because orders for the cars weren't coming in as expected, but it wasn't because of what they expected from the car on the track.   Whatever sleight of hand was employed, was done so before the races were run.

69Charger500, I can't wait to see what C.H. comes back with, and if GG has to change his story yet again...