How many '69 500s were actually built???

[Ghoste]

Harold Sullivan no longer owns it.  It currently belongs to a fellow right here in my own little Mayberry part of Canada and it is about to be auctioned off by RM at their Boca auction in February.

[mustanghater]

this might be stupid but did they ever crash test these things cause that could be a reason why 499 daytonas where shipped and not 503, 4 for crash tests.

[Ghoste]

It's not a stupid question.  Crash testing wasn't the strictly regulated thing back then that it is today.  They didn't need endless tests of each iteration of a vehicle, so, no, as far as I know, none were used for crash tests.

[hemi68charger]

Also, it was said that some C500's were eventually made into Daytonas........ But, the timing doesn't make sense on that argument.. The production of the C500 ended in Dec. '68. The demise of the C500 was the Feb.'69 Daytona 500 when Glotzbach finished second. From that dayt forward, the C500 was doomed and the envisioned creation of "something" better was born........

Troy

[Ghoste]

Production ended but when were they all shipped?  Could also have been some vehicle order numbers in the system which were already entered as XX cars slated to be 500's which were then put on hold?  Part of the NASCAR bamboozle maybe?  Only theorizing.

[hemi68charger]

Production ended but when were they all shipped?  ...

Good point..........   

[nascarxx29]

From the old vintage wingcar   pictures .I have and race tapes .Ive seen it appears to me .The chargers would recieve metal transplants.Go from a season being a 500 .And next season being a daytona.And wasnt the wingcar metal parts supplier to the racers Nichols engineering.So I wouldnt think unsold or factory inventory 500s or daytonas.Would be converted to racing.But who knows maybe a indepentant racer might ofdid it?,.But it still doesnt explain so many missing cars.Unless the factory numbers and not even close to being accurate.And lesser numbers of 500s and daytonas.Were actually built from the numbers we assume to be correct.We have the daytona shipmemt list with dealers and vins.But this document might be more factory numbers gamesThey only had to build so many by Sept 69 in order to qualify to race.They say they did pull a fast one on nascar inspectors runnig same 69 500 car to be counted twice.So who knows what you can believe?Ive seen 69 charger 500s in the numbers of 64-65 in earlier 79 wingcar club newsletters.Then by the 80-s go to 181.And somewhere in the 90-s exceed that amount.And know the assumed to be numbers are 400 or even more.When along through out the years and several wingcar club newsletters were using the 392 number.

[hemigeno]

From the old vintage wingcar   pictures .I have and race tapes .Ive seen it appears to me .The chargers would recieve metal transplants.Go from a season being a 500 .And next season being a daytona.

Definitely true.   A lot of race chassis from that era wore many different years/models sheet metal skins.   Heard rumors of some chassis being used for different makes (brands) too...

And wasnt the wingcar metal parts supplier to the racers Nichols engineering.

Yep, at least until the 1970 season - that was a major part of the incentive package to get Petty back to Plymouth/Chysler.   Nichels lost the race parts supply contract then.

So I wouldnt think unsold or factory inventory 500s or daytonas.Would be converted to racing.But who knows maybe a indepentant racer might ofdid it?,.But it still doesnt explain so many missing cars.Unless the factory numbers and not even close to being accurate.

I agree, no unsold street aero cars would have ended up being sent to the track.   Too costly to buy a fully-equipped street car and turn it into a racer.   They did that with Body-In-White chassis, but that's a totally different story, and those weren't given VIN's either.   I also don't think there were any factory-inventory 500s or Daytonas.   I wouldn't even classify the cars sent to the Regional Offices as factory inventory, but that could be debated.   They were pretty much all sent out to the Dealers.  

Inaccurate numbers? A distinct possibility, especially with the C500's.

And lesser numbers of 500s and daytonas.Were actually built from the numbers we assume to be correct.We have the daytona shipmemt list with dealers and vins.But this document might be more factory numbers gamesThey only had to build so many by Sept 69 in order to qualify to race.

I suppose that the Daytona's numbers could have been fudged, but you don't hear rumors about vastly fewer numbers of Daytonas than reported like we've always heard about the C500s.   Also - they had to show that the Daytonas had been shipped to the Dealers, and not just "made" prior to garnering NASCAR's approval for the '69 Talladega race.   I know I have a copy around here somewhere of the documents to (and later, from) NASCAR requesting (and getting) approval the Daytona body style for use in the race.   Where's Doug Schellinger when we need him?     

They say they did pull a fast one on nascar inspectors runnig same 69 500 car to be counted twice.

Was there an actual inspector that looked at cars?   I didn't think they did that on the Daytonas, but perhaps they did so on 500s.   Some other rumors I've heard is that Chrysler took VINs from other Hamtramck cars, and tacked an XX29L prefix on them instead of what they really were, and listed them in their report to NASCAR.   If they fudged that list, that might explain why Chrysler "lost" it once they got approval from NASCAR.   No one would want to take the fall for that.

So who knows what you can believe?Ive seen 69 charger 500s in the numbers of 64-65 in earlier 79 wingcar club newsletters.Then by the 80-s go to 181.And somewhere in the 90-s exceed that amount.And know the assumed to be numbers are 400 or even more.When along through out the years and several wingcar club newsletters were using the 392 number.

This issue will never be definitively settled in all likelihood.   Even having a list of shipped 500's (if it still exists) might only fuel the speculation that the list was fudged.   The world will never know...   Which reminds me - how many licks does it take to get to the center of a TootsiePop?     

[nascarxx29]

http://aerowarriors.com/watn.html  .That letter HemiGeno mentioned might be on this site .Also at the time it was believed as a chrysler employee wing car guy.Greg who owns the #88 research daytona And he also found the green 70 daytona inhouse picture.Had also found a 385 daytona shipment list.That list later was updated to #501 dodge daytonas.As a copy belonging to mopar writer .Anthony Young .Anthony wrote the mighty mopar book back in the day .And he mentioned where the first and last daytona was sold and shipped to in that book.Later he submitted his list to the wing car club.As he must of had access to the chyrsler historical archives.When he wrote that book

[nascarxx29]

That letter Hemi Geno refred to might be this one as they had to showACCUS nascar counters all daytona in the required number were built in time and delivered.In order to qualify intime to race the daytona.Dated Sept 9-69 from Mr John Oliveau of ACCUS.That said here is a list of shipments by date which includes over 500 of the dodge daytonas .And shows which date each of them was shipped.You will note we too caught the duplication on *92 and that was  deleted from the list.And subsequent numbers altered

[Ghoste]

We also shouldn't discount the fact that every once in a while NASCAR looks the other way in the interest of competition.  A extremely slight possibility yes, but possible nonetheless.

[Highbanked Hauler]

We also shouldn't discount the fact that every once in a while NASCAR looks the other way in the interest of competition.   A extremely slight possibility yes, but possible nonetheless.

                 My guess and its only a guess, it is-was much more than slight possibility.

[Ghoste]

Perhaps.  But when it comes to "plausible denial" there's no one in DC got it on the good ole boys from NASCAR.

[nascarxx29]

Then there is this letter to Ronnie Householder from ACCUS dated Sept 8-69 that stated.Completion of surveys at dodge factory september 3.And dodge dealer surveys September 5-6-8-.Covering dodge daytona charger indicate that the dodge division of chrysler corporation has complied with the production requirements established for stock car racing,The dodge daytona is therefore now eligible for competition as of this date

[69Charger500]

hemigeno:   Not sure how to do the quote thing yet, but here goes:

"""""Quote from: nascarxx29"""""""
They say they did pull a fast one on nascar inspectors runnig same 69 500 car to be counted twice.

"""""Quote from: hemigeno""""""
Was there an actual inspector that looked at cars?   I didn't think they did that on the Daytonas, but perhaps they did so on 500s.   Some other rumors I've heard is that Chrysler took VINs from other Hamtramck cars, and tacked an XX29L prefix on them instead of what they really were, and listed them in their report to NASCAR.   If they fudged that list, that might explain why Chrysler "lost" it once they got approval from NASCAR.   No one would want to take the fall for that.


Now that makes sense about the "lost" list.   I used to have some good contacts at Chrysler Historical, but now all I get is "we don't have those records on the 500's anymore."   I know Galen is in tight with some key people there, and it would not surprise me if HemiGeno is right.   Why else would anybody care if the "list" is published or not at this point in time.   They probably asked him to "play along" with the dealer list so no one would be the wiser that the number wasn't anywhere near 500.   I was told by sources at Chrysler Historical and from Galen himself they are afraid people would build "fake" cars using the info.   How could someone build a "fake" car if the real one is out there somewhere with a documented history, unless some of the "real" cars never existed in the first place........

I know how to search DMV records using VINs or names or license plates or whatever, and I know Galen has "gone fishing" for rare cars using this method.   If his list of 580 or so was real, wouldn't he have found some of the missing cars with his searches?

Think about that for a minute!

Mike

[Ghoste]

Especially with him being a 500 fan.

[hemigeno]

Dave,

Yep, those are the two letters I was talking about.   I know I have them somewhere.   Too many papers floating around the office here, and not near enough time to get them all organized.

The point of the letters is that Chrysler complied with the NASCAR requirement by providing a Shipment List, and apparently there was a Dealer Survey as well.   Might have just been some random spot-checks to make some attempt at verification.   I don't think there was a NASCAR official sitting on a stool over at Creative Industries checking off cars as they rolled by.   That's another reason why I don't think the legendary C500 story about rolling the same car past someone multiple times holds water.   

If you think about it, the last C500's would have been rolling through Creative Industries in late December, or early January at the latest.   The first 500's were probably delivered months before that.   At no point in time were all of the cars grouped together where they could be checked off a list by anyone, much less a NASCAR official.   Even the Daytonas were shipped out over a period of time ranging from 8/16 to 9/8 (except for the first one that went to Canada in June).   

It's interesting that the Householder letter was dated the same day (9/8/69) that the last thirteen Daytonas were shipped out to Dealers. Nothing like going down to the wire, since the Talladega 500 race was held September 14th.   

69Charger500, I had not heard that Chrysler Hysterical or Galen was protecting the C500 list to prevent "faked" cars.   Why weren't they as protective about the Superbird and/or Daytona information, when those cars' value usually eclipse that of Dodge's first aero car?   Something is rotten in Denmark (no offense to our EU friends).

[69Charger500]

Right.   And if there are really 540 or 580 numbers on the list I know he has, and if 150-200 of them had VINs which were known by him or Chrysler Historical to "NOT" be Charger 500s, THEN there would be something to build a fake from right?   Just "lose" the original history on a non-500 car on the list, do the conversion, and voila, another "long-lost" Charger 500 shows up, right?

[69Charger500]

Oh, that is what they have both told me numerous times over the years.

It is especially convenient that there are known real Charger 500s with XS paperwork.   That muddies up the water just enough doesn't it?

And if they let the list go public, some guys out there would be scratching their heads saying, "wait a minute, I bought my car new, and it is not a 500, but it is on the list!"

Maybe that's a stretch, but why all the secrecy on their part about releasing the entire list?

And maybe the Daytona & Superbird lists and numbers were more on the level than the 500s, so they did not need to hide them or "lose" them.

Mike

[nascarxx29]

Being as we got so many 500 fans .I got this ?This is the missing 69 AC gold charger 500 missing from my town XS29L9B157499
> prior owner Francis Burley last owner in NJ Jim Benson.Car was restored but not fininshed for $3500.00.Back in 87 or 89.I had to remember in my piles of papers what pile had those 2 letters Hemo Geno.

[hemigeno]

I personally don't think that's a stretch at all.   Just because Galen says something doesn't make it so.   I'm from Missouri, so I'm a skeptic by nature.   Things happen for a reason, and there is a reason why this information isn't being put out there.

If this list has been padded, it's entirely possible that neither Chrysler or Galen knows which ones are legit, and which ones are not.   Galen may already have multiple cars in the Registry which (as Mike/69Charger500 hypothesized) are on the list but aren't really 500s after all.   He couldn't pare the list down even if he wanted to unless ALL the "bogus" 500 VIN's were known.   If Chrysler Hysterical or Galen knew which ones those are, they'd have put out an official total of how many were produced.   

At this point in time, no one cares whether NASCAR's homologation rules were satisfied or not.   That can't be the reason for all this secrecy, since there's no possible repercussions from that sort of a revelation nearly 37 years after it happened.   What Mike pointed out as a possibility could be that legitimate fear which would keep this info under wraps - someone capitalizing on the shipping list to turn a car into something it never was (and using Chrysler's own paperwork to try and make it stick).

Geno

PS - Dave, I wish I had my papers even put into piles...   

[Charger Aficionado]

  And I swear some of those recent eBay auctions for 500s have said 392, BUT also have Govier Documentation.   Who has those old auction numbers?  I'd like to re-check that out...  Where did Govier say that 500+number?

[nascarxx29]

The 69 daytona lists started of as offer by Greg who had the only known 385 daytona shipment list in existence .Who worked at chryslerAnd had a ad in the wingcar newsletter as he was in the wingcar club also.Saying to all 69 daytona owners.Send in a vin rubbing of your serial number.And he would send you for free,The dealer and known listed info on your car only.And this#501 list became available to the wingcar club.By Anthony Young who wrote Mighty Mopars.There is a similar complete 69 charger 500s list.But I dont have it.Or know what totals are on it.As for the superbird there is no dealer info shipment list other then what numbers of cars went to what states and zones.But there is a nascar list called the# 1920.That has all superbird serial numbers in it.But there are some numbers repeated in this book .But it contains #1920 serial numbers for the superbird

[hemigeno]

GG's little white book (mine was ordered last year, and is the July 2001 edition) now gives the 580 number.   That includes (according to him), all 440 and Hemi 500's shipped to the US.   He shows four going to Canada (One Hemi and three 440's), which would be in addition to the 580.   I suppose that would mean a total of 584 cars.   He also lists 14 500SE's, but I would expect those cars are counted in the 584 number, since their VIN isn't distinguishable from the non-SE cars.

The strange thing is, he lists 119 Hemi 500's, and 450 wedge 500's that are known-to-exist.   That's nearly all of the 500's that were ever made by his own totals!.   I highly suspect that his "knowledge" was imparted through the super-secret Shipping List.   He boasts no such high percentage of knowledge about the Daytonas, or Superbirds for that matter.

Again, something's fishy about this whole issue.

[Ghoste]

Agreed.  Galen loves to blow his own horn and if he could turn this into anything that helps him, he would.