How many '69 500s were actually built???

[Highwaystar]

Here is a copy of my original letter with Chrysler Corp. verifying the 392 number in 1972.   

[Aero426]

there are people who will sit on documents forever rather than share anything with the hobby.

The 392 letter was published in the Winged Warriors newsletter many years ago.  

While the letter is on company letterhead, and I have no doubt of its authenticity,  it gives no insight as to how the writer arrived at that number.    It is in direct conflict with two sources of "over 500 cars"; number one being the Bill France letter and number two, the Govier list.    

Also, you cannot just throw out the ACCUS rule that five hundred cars had to be built.     It would be difficult to cheat by shorting production by twenty percent when there was a known list of VINs used for spot checking.

But if they did, where are the extra 100 sets of parts?   We should have been awash in NOS Charger 500 headlamp assemblies.   They had to PLAN in advance ordering these parts.

As I have mentioned like beating a drum,  the survival rates of 500s seem to be grossly inflated by using the 392 number.    

[held1823]

there are people who will sit on documents forever rather than share anything with the hobby.

The 392 letter was published in the Winged Warriors newsletter many years ago.

ah, i wasn't referring to the 392 letter, or to anyone in particular. i was just lamenting that not everyone gives a damn about the history

[hemi68charger]

...
While the letter is on company letterhead, and I have no doubt of its authenticity,  it gives no insight as to how the writer arrived at that number.    It is in direct conflict with two sources of "over 500 cars"; number one being the Bill France letter and number two, the Govier list.    

...

Here's where the elusive Govier list is.......... It'll never surface..........

[Shakey]

...
While the letter is on company letterhead, and I have no doubt of its authenticity,  it gives no insight as to how the writer arrived at that number.    It is in direct conflict with two sources of "over 500 cars"; number one being the Bill France letter and number two, the Govier list.    

...

Here's where the elusive Govier list is.......... It'll never surface..........

That looks like my basement right now, only it's not as organized as that warehouse.

[talkiemopar]

Like I said before if XX29 were put in the computer and 392 came up, were the rest of the 500's XS29. I have one of each. Did my XS29 get counted?   Rick.

[nascarxx29]

In 2000 I sent Galen a letter with some questions one of which as to NJ 500 dealers .I got that info .I believe the lists exists .It should be like the Daytona #385 dealership list back when list you send in a vin tracing or some other required proof .And you got you cars info  

[nascarxx29]

Ive seen a Daytona manufacture statement of origin for a 69 Daytona that had XS on it .The XS XX has always been inconsistent.Theres been articles in newsletters send info to Chrysler as motor vehicle agencys were carrying the mistake   dressler Daytona XS on it factory title paperwork


. I recall its manafacture of statement origin reads XS.

[nascarxx29]

XS or XX 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daytona and 500 Registrations from  1976 wing warrior newsletter.It reads how many of you daytona and chargers 500 owners have the problem of possesing a registration slip showing maybe XS on the paperwork instead of XX.Well if you want to correct this error.Then heres what Mike Mcguire says you have to go through to straighten the matter out.As he had the same problem with his daytona.You write to James H Kilroy chrysler corporation office of civic affairs P.O. Box 1919 Detroit Michigan 48231.Include a copy of the title and picture of the car.And if possible a picture of the serial number on the dash.Or from the engine compartment plate.We recommend you use the dash.As we have seen a case where they even put XS on the engine compartment plate instead of XX as was on the dash.Mr Klilroy will inturn respond with a letter to your state DMV notorized stating he correct serial number.And they will in turn change the registration.Most of these problems were caused by an erroneous statement on the the factory title of origin.And in this case the mistake was made on Mikes Daytona.




http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,79574.0.html

[Highwaystar]

What's the possibility this Daytona and say a hundred others were originally 500's that Chrysler held onto and had Custom Creations release them as Daytona's? That could account for XS engine ID numbers,  and VIN numbers still being released in the Daytona models with XS. Although the sequence numbers would be later 500 numbers, maybe never recorded.
There was a very short time between the 2 productions (6 months?)

[Aero426]

What's the possibility this Daytona and say a hundred others were originally 500's that Chrysler held onto and had Custom Creations release them as Daytona's?

Not a chance of this happening.    We now know all the Daytona VINs are much higher sequentially as well as the later scheduled production dates at Hamtramck.   

[Ghoste]

And six months is a looooong time in auto production and racing both.

[Aero426]

This is old.  Forgot we had even wrote about it in 1998.   But here is Govier's communication regarding the production numbers.    As he says, he is reasonably certain the real number is greater than 392 and closer to 548.

[Highwaystar]

What if they pulled a few 500's back into Custom Creations to finish off as Daytona's. I know the sequential numbers are higher as all Daytona's are, but there are only 392 VIN numbers available for 500's. So how do we know what the others would have been. It would explain the pictures below of what looks like a few 500's mixed in with Daytona's at Custom Creations.
Chrysler would have been able to save some money vs. allocating 500 more cars to the Daytona project. Rear window plugs done already, R/T chassis, and drivetrain. I don't think Chrysler cared about ever making these cars available for the public, but to have the numbers needed, and fast to go Racing.
just a thought to ponder on..., before it gets total dismissal. It could account for the proper number of 500's accounted for at one time, but never made available to the public.

[Highwaystar]

Another

[69_500]

The picture that looks like 500's mixed with Daytona's is because they were not completed yet. The two runs did not overlap.

[Aero426]

What if they pulled a few 500's back into Custom Creations to finish off as Daytona's. I know the sequential numbers are higher as all Daytona's are, but there are only 392 VIN numbers available for 500's.

There are no Daytonas old enough to have a scheduled production date old enough to have been intended as a Charger 500.    All Daytonas have their own unique special order number starting with 926xxx.

All the 500's built had to be on their way to dealerships by 1/1/69.   The 500 did not "fail" until after the Daytona 500 in mid-February.    The Daytona program wasn't announced until April.    The time line does not work for "holding back" Charger 500 cars.  

How do you know there are REALLY only 392 VIN's for Charger 500s?       Too much stock is being placed on a potentially flawed letter from Chrysler.  


 

[Aero426]

Creative Industries was a fairly small job shop.    Cars are shown in the press photos are various states of completion on the way to being Daytonas.     Old Photos don't lie, but they can be misinterpreted.   Creative was not much like an assembly line.   

[odcics2]

You can see the 'hollow' horizontals!
My old street Daytona, XX29L9B383272 had a solid one.
DC-93 has a hollow one.

Wonder why a few were solid?  Be interesting to figure out a pattern.

[Highwaystar]

I  like to look at all potential angles. you all have good answers for it not happening. As for the letter, until there is something that is made public that is more creditable, how could agree with other "here say" if it is not in writing. 3-4 years after production seems to me to be more creditable than accounts that have been made in the last 10 years. The 392 number XS vs. XX is all how you want to look at it. How do we know the guy was checking VIN numbers to come up with the 392 number, maybe he was checking A11 500 codes in early production when he came up with the number. I'm sorry to say it will be a mystery, until something else is made public, and I am with 69_500, and Ghoste  the number will always be 392.
Now if there are some good chaps out there, help me find my Broadcast sheet, and I will believe what ever you want me to.

[Alaskan_TA]

Questions for the registry keepers;

What is the number of known recorded VINs for the 500s?

What is the number of known recorded VINs for the Daytonas?

What are the lowest & highest vehicle order numbers for each model?

[Tom Q]

More registry
How many different 926XXX SO numbers are there. XXX is what I am referring to.

[Alaskan_TA]

That was my last question above, just worded differently.

Also for the registry guys, are there any VONs recorded in these series of cars that are known NOT to be 500s & Daytonas?

(Just trying to look at it from another perspective)

[Ghoste]

I'll have to look it up later.  Danny has a more complete list f 500's than I do though and I think there is a good chance that Geno has a better Daytona list.

[Aero426]

As for the letter, until there is something that is made public that is more creditable, how could agree with other "here say" if it is not in writing. 3-4 years after production seems to me to be more creditable than accounts that have been made in the last 10 years.

Why does the list need to be made public to be credible?   If Govier says "I have a list with x number of cars on it", why is there a reason to doubt what he says?     If NASCAR said "We have a list of 540 cars",  why would we discount that?    Neither of those are hear say any more than the Chrysler letter.    All are in writing.   

The one thing that doesn't make sense is 392, which is not enough to certify and race the car.    No one seems to be interested in talking about how if that number is true, how the car got certified to race.