How many '69 500s were actually built???

[Ghoste]

Well, that was kind of what I meant by intending to build the cars.   They may have reported them with good intentions and then just changed their mind.   I see your point though.
I thought the 500 sold fairly well?

[hemi68charger]

69Charger500, I can't wait to see what C.H. comes back with, and if GG has to change his story yet again...

Yet he may have to find a regular job?  Just think, information that's easily accessible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  even at a cost....

[hemigeno]

They may have reported them with good intentions and then just changed their mind.

Now THERE'S a thought...  

The Daytona was already on the drawing board as "next year's new and improved racecar" before the 500 even debuted.   Chrysler may indeed have intended to stretch production of the 500 throughout the 1969 model year, to make it easier on Creative Industries.  

Good point...   I doubt that NASCAR would have been very understanding of that tactic if that's indeed what they did, so they would have definitely kept that little secret under wraps.

[Ghoste]

Yet he may have to find a regular job?   Just think, information that's easily accessible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   even at a cost....

As they say, knowledge is power.  This has been a fascinating thread for me by the way. 

[69Charger500]

One of the focused points of our discussion (Chrysler Historical), was that the information should be available to those who are truly enthusiasts, and not just out to make a buck.   I am re-assured that if they can help out the hobby by clarifying this, or any other info on the old Chrysler cars, they will.

I was told they had the Superbird list, but I think that is already known info.

By the way, I helped them out last summer by donating my 500 for a photo shoot and live news broadcast featuring the new Daytona at the Woodward Cruise, as the one they had was not readily available.

They contacted me and arranged with our Marketing folks to pick up my car and deliver it to downtown Pontiac's Phoenix Center at the North end of the cruise.   As I was loading 3 of my daughters into my Jeep Wrangler to head down to the cruise, an 80 foot long semi trailer shows up outside my house to pick up the Charger.

Good thing my Jeep was a Rubicon, 'cause I ended up having to lead that semi through traffic, and on a few occasions had to take the Jeep over and around some "obstacles" to see what was up ahead for the driver of the semi, so we didn't get him trapped in the sea of cars in downtown Pontiac!!!!!!

[hemi68charger]

One of the focused points of our discussion (Chrysler Historical), was that the information should be available to those who are truly enthusiasts, and not just out to make a buck.  I am re-assured that if they can help out the hobby by clarifying this, or any other info on the old Chrysler cars, they will.

I was told they had the Superbird list, but I think that is already known info.

By the way, I helped them out last summer by donating my 500 for a photo shoot and live news broadcast featuring the new Daytona at the Woodward Cruise, as the one they had was not readily available.

They contacted me and arranged with our Marketing folks to pick up my car and deliver it to downtown Pontiac's Phoenix Center at the North end of the cruise.  As I was loading 3 of my daughters into my Jeep Wrangler to head down to the cruise, an 80 foot long semi trailer shows up outside my house to pick up the Charger.

Good thing my Jeep was a Rubicon, 'cause I ended up having to lead that semi through traffic, and on a few occasions had to take the Jeep over and around some "obstacles" to see what was up ahead for the driver of the semi, so we didn't get him trapped in the sea of cars in downtown Pontiac!!!!!!

Ahhhh, the advantages of living near Detroit.........

[Ghoste]

In all fairness, the Woodward cruise could overwhelm the best of city planners.

[nascarxx29]

. Page 1
January 5, 2000

G. T .S. Route 1, Box 322K 37002 Sand Burr Lane Prairie du Chien, WI 53821-9801

gvgovier@mhtc.net
www.gvgovier.com



Dear David,

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Received your letter and I will answer
your questions.   .
1. I have seen that Warranty Validation sticker before. I had a 1969 Charger RT and it was on the
   door jamb where the oil change stickers usually go.
2. I do not have a Dealer Name for # 57097. The next batch I send in I will inquire. My contact is a bit
   behind on requests because he is very busy at Chrysler or should I say Daimler-Chrysler.
3. Here is a list of all 1969 500.s Charger sold new in New Jersey:



COAST DODGE INC   1201 Main Street   Ashbury Park   NJ   XX29L9B152199        
ED VAN NESS MOTORS INC   770 Fairview Avenue   Fairview   NJ   XX29L9B210711        
FREEHOLD DODGE INC   Lakewood Road   Freehold   NJ   XX29L9B152198        
NEMITH CIRCLE DODGE INC   821 New Loudon Rd   Latham   NJ   XX29L9B199669        
NEWARK DODGE INC   11-21 Sussex Avenue   Newark   NJ   XX29L9B162292        
            XX29L9B21710        
NORTH PLAINFIELD DODGE INC   555 Somerset Street   North Plainfield   NJ   XX29L9B144160        
            XX29L9B146045        
            XX29L9B162291        
DE MAIO OODGE INC   36 Main Street   Orange   NJ   XX29L9B162292        
LABRIOLA MOTORS INC   120 E. Newman Springs Road   Red Bank   NJ   XX29L9B150548        
FOWLER MOTORS INC.   Route #15   Searta   NJ   XX29L9B144173        
RIDGE DODGE INC   85 Route #17   Woodridge   NJ   XX29L9B162294   




.

I only have 1 non-RT Charger with the W23 Wheels on file, its VIN is XP29H9B125868. If your friend's VIN is different, could you send me a copy of the Broadcast Sheet?

The 1970 Super Bee I am guessing is a St. Louis car. AlC and PtW on a Super Bee is extremely rare. The color is NOT desirable. A Bittersweet car! Can you send me a copy of the Broadcast Sheet?

If there is anything, I can do for you do not hesitate to write.
   Keep the Faith,



v


Galen V. GovierGVG/gg                                   ((Galen numbers are only as good as the info he has available to him.This is the 1 and only page I requested looking for the selling dealer in NJ for my friends 69 charger 500.I suppose this page he sent me free of charge is the 1 page of ? more from the charger 500 shipments list .And you will see they have by the vin .Same car being sold by different dealers.Whats that do for the accounted and given numbers of cars

[Highbanked Hauler]

  144160, what is the # of the first cars.I thought mine was an early car with 166356

[hemigeno]

  144160, what is the # of the first cars.I thought mine was an early car with 166356

Here ya go, Al...

Here's the fender tag to the first Charger 500 built at Creative.   It shows XS and again the dash of this car shows XX.

[Highbanked Hauler]

   Wow,so there is nothing in the fender tag which tells what number(C500) the car was when it was built.So the closest thing I have to go by is the wrong build sheet that is with the car as these two were at Creative at the same time.

[nascarxx29]

In 1979 the given number was #548 as to this paragraph from the 1979 wingcar club newsletter     .It says we recieved some copies of paperwork sent to Mike Russo.Who owns a Hemi charger 500 which used to be the New York News Bureau's car.They are dated March 8 1971 by Charles Paul.Who at that time was regional Manager for the dodge News Bureau in New York.Mr Paul has since left chrysler.In the letter it states that #548 charger 500's were produced .Of these 15 were Hemi four 4 speed cars 17 Hemi automatic 163 440's with four speeds and 353 with 440 automatics.What sparked Mikes interest was our #392 number figure that we had.He in turn contacted RK Marvin who wrote that letter.And Mr Marvin stated he could only find #392 XX cars in the files.Meaning BOTH Daytonas and 500's.Would it be wild if it was true.But we dont think it holds water.Mr Paul also told Mike that the New York office had the hemi four 4 speed and that the Los Angeles office had a 440 automatic 500.The Detroit office never did get a 500.It seems now that alot of so called road tests done by various magazines on 500's were done with cars that magazines borrowed from various dealerships.So as you can see we have alot to learn about these cars.And as a person who keeps writing in to ask how many 500's SE'S were made.We still dont know that answer.If Chrysler comes across and lets us look at the records of the broadcast sheets then we will be able to tell you

[Ghoste]

The four speed car had to be on the west coast for a little while because Hot Rod had it and the automatic at the same time.  They COULD have borrowed one from a dealership but there probably weren't a lot of Hemi four speeds with power windows sitting on the lots.  Not to mention that they damaged the four speed car and Hot Rod's "repair" is still very visible in the car to this day.

[wingcars6970]

I m not sure which car was used .But I got this Bud Lindeman road test on tape .Where they beat up on a 69 R4 hemi charger 500

[Ghoste]

Yes, it's the automatic car.  It was the second 500 built and is a near twin to the four speed car which was the first one built.

[dayclona]

Ahhh! ............the superbird list, when, if? Mr. Patik decides to share the truth with us, you'll see the bird #'s go to 2012-13 units!.............did I let that cat out of the bag!.....sorry Dave!..............the 69 Daytona figure553,..........let's not forget those 3 70 daytonas!           .........the C500.........number ,392?...................more.................too elusive, I really have'nt focused on the 500's...........they're whats for dinner at the Dayclona conversion factory! we've only eaten a few!      .....................you & I look at this as a hobby, .....some are into it more than others?..................those who "sit" on the whereabouts of cars, parts, infomation,etc....try to fool us with the line " they're trying to perserve history" or "I'm waiting to gather more documentation"..........BS............what started as a noble cause for them years ago, now is BIG BU$iNE$$..........the root of all evil!...........the money to be made!.............how would you like to be sitting on a large chunk of NOS sheetmetal.......ummmm(GG)......only because you were at the right place at the right time!.......I'm sure we all would!.........but we think! wow! all my projects are gonna have virgin metal!..........they think....Just how much can I JACK the price!......Ahhhh! Ebag....I love you!.........................................................now for the creme' de la creme', how about sitting on a list of cars unknown? unheard of!..........the time to hunt them down!, knowing the high rollers have offered even MORE $$$ for finding them something rarer than the last guy unearthed!........don't you just love those stories about how the big investor car guy is led to a hidden 1 of 1 hemi whatever by Tony,Galen,Patik,etc,etc.......they 're "pe$erving hi$tory"!..........food for thought?; I wonder how long Galen is going to sit on those 2 1971 T/A challengers!( yes 2 vins and counting!)....................................mopars, the ones waiting to be rediscovered, are not going to become the benefit of furthering our history, knowledge..........................they will benefit someones wallet/ investment portfolio,........I'm not ranting, merely posting a truthful observation of the "hobby" 30 years ago, it was the love of horsepower, and the mopar dare to be different approach!.......................today, the love of money, and thelove of money!................so if Galen says 500+ 500's, you better start looking more!..................................................................cause if I find'um, they're Daytonas when I'm done with them!


Mike G./ proprieter/ DAYCLONA Enterprises

[nascarxx29]

This might be near you ever been .To the Newport Auto Museum In RI. Ive heard they might have a daytona in there XX29L9B390009. that sold brand new in Providence RI. Ever see this car.I was going to ask about that car and car museum   on a post .Figured you live near that area.Figure I run it past you .I   couldnt pm it to you Ive only had that 1920 serial number book that goes up to #1920 since 77 78.I knew where some cars were from back in my days .Do you recall the 70 white red interior PW cuda 426 conv that was in north NJ .I knew of since the 80-s. and didnt bother with with it I was then and still into the wingcarsThat car went to MA for $465K when the story broke in MCG

[dayclona]

This might be near you ever been .To the Newport Auto Museum In RI. Ive heard they might have a daytona in there XX29L9B390009. that sold brand new in Providence RI. Ever see this car.I was going to ask about that car and car museum   on a post .Figured you live near that area.Figure I run it past you .I   couldnt pm it to you Ive only had that 1920 serial number book that goes up to #1920 since 77 78.I knew where some cars were from back in my days .Do you recall the 70 white red interior PW cuda 426 conv that was in north NJ .I knew of since the 80-s. and didnt bother with with it I was then and still into the wingcarsThat car went to MA for $465K when the story broke in MCG

Dave, never seen or heard of newport auto museum?.......however as I said before, about seeing real paperwork! car #390009, never made it to Elwood Dodge rt 44 East Providence R.I. 02903. the dealer reasigned  it to another dealer, in an other state,never entered R.I. dealership, I know this as fact! as I've researched this car, and its paperwork,owner,(original)...................I will not list its present location, sorry!..................as far as 70 white hemi conv, yes the buyer is somewhat of a regular vendor at the local swapmeets in the Conn.,R.I., Mass, area......always advertising want ads for cuda convs.,hemi E-bodies, parts, etc...............................hope this helps dave!

[hemihead]

I know of a Red C500 in SWPA sitting in front of a old repair garage.White Stripe,Console auto. old late 70's /early 80's plates and inspection.Nice shape.   Anyway, wouldn't these number discrepencies work to someone's advantage if they wanted to make a profit on bogus cars that they built or they bought and were fooled by seller and looking to get their money back?If someone had some wealthy friends it would help them to pad the numbers. As said above by Dayclona( Who I think is right on the mark)The Mopar game today is not about the love of the cars it is all about greed. 

[69Charger500]

Maybe this has already been eluded to, but if all the Order Numbers were designated to start with 925, doesn't it make sense they would have just gone in sequential order from there?  My order number is 925303, with a build date of B20.  Who has the highest order number out there??

[chargervert]

I beleve that Mike hit the nail on the head! I have owned Mopars since the seventies! My parents had a 70 Charger R/T SE brand new when I was a kid. My sister married a guy who had a 440 Sixpack Challenger R/T!  I grew up with these cars,and I build them because I love these cars. Any money that I have made on any cars,or parts over the years,goes right back into the cars.Those of us who started out in this hobby,that way,and bought up these cars when nobody wanted them anymore,know what it was like to build these cars when there was no aftermarket parts for them.The resurgance of the mighty Mopar muscle car has been good for us as far as the aftermarket parts are concerned. But it has also caused the greedy investors to drive the prices of these cars out of the price range of the people who truly love these cars! Is it a good thing,well, yes and no! Now every Bozo with a 318 Barracuda,thinks its worth 3 million dollars! But on the other hand you are seeing top notch restorations of the rarest cars,by investors with deep pockets,and these cars are being restored to levels thay would'nt have seen if they were owned by people like us! There are the so called' gurews' of the hobby who hord parts,and information,but will sell them to the highest bidder! They let out little teasers to bait us into going way over our heads to get that illusive peice of documentation.I guess we will have to take the good with the bad! It has been 40 plus years since Chrysler started building Muscle cars,and all the hype is still keeping the interest in these cars alive! Its a great time to have and build Mopar Muscle cars,that is if you already have them!

[nascarxx29]

Thats why registrys play a important part.They can tell you if a car your considering used to be just a set of numbers.It would be nice for the mopar hobby .If they had something simiilar to pontiac historical .You get copys of all factory invoices.But thats not going to happen. These boards police and sometimes have background info.On a certain car from back in the day aquired on the spot info.Where I got mine and not from current guru sources .I have hemmings news all the way back to the 70-s .You find what states and where cars were and ads with vins later .You see the same car for sale again .But now its matching numbers and has less miles .On it than stated when it was in the early 70's- vintage ads from hemmings cars and parts early wingcar newsletters etc.When people were totally honest in the description of a car being sold.And I enjoy finding credible documentation like old new paper auto classified archives.

[hemigeno]

Maybe this has already been eluded to, but if all the Order Numbers were designated to start with 925, doesn't it make sense they would have just gone in sequential order from there?   My order number is 925303, with a build date of B20.   Who has the highest order number out there??

Well, I can't say for certain that the C500's didn't use an exact sequential order format for the SO numbers, since I don't have access to a complete Shipping List or something of the sort. 

However, I know for a fact that the Daytonas did not.  I have logged the SO numbers from 926000 to 927254 (except for the Dale Reeker car, which had an SO assignment of 236200).  I don't think they made 1,255 Daytonas. 

As I stated, I don't know for certain that they used the same format for the 500's, but I wouldn't automatically assume that they went strictly in sequential order.

[nascarxx29]

You can only do so much with whats outhere in info and available to you .I dont totally rely on every magazine mopar guru for info .That were not offering much or any type of todays info .When I had my cars.But still like to read and try to find out newest hobby info .But the compilage of years of both clubs wingcar newsletters are a great archives.And also all those piles of 70-s & up hemming news.And various board postings of shared threads. Then after a trip to the library and searching the old car ads on microfilm.I would go to a show and see a superbird with its paper work that also stated its #stock number.And in turn I would hand the guy a ad for his car when it was new for sale when on the car dealership lot brand new that matched the stock # of that car.Which makes in my opinon some cool paperwork.And I given daytona owners unaware of this daytona shipment list. Some more documentation.Ive got many vintage original microfilmed muscle car ads.And try to figure possibility as to this colors annd vins theory.Ive seen alot cars with near close vins and colors run alike.From V2 Orange and R4 Red and other colored cars that were twin builds of each other . Of the many B5 cars Ive seen they sometimes tend to run in close number sequences .And seen cars starting with a certain like beginining vin  number and whatever its ending number is for example  152 153 and so one etc .Turn out to be B5 also .By a coincedence? .Or the factory painted groups of cars in consistant number vins at the same time.Has been what Ive experienced.

[69_500]

Hmmm, well it seems that I missed out on a lot of talk the last 3 days I was out of town.



Well lets get to the first thing I noticed in this thread.


Dave, the VIN you listed as a stolen car, out of NJ, XX29L9B157499 is the car that was for sale on Ebay about a month ago. It is painted A4 silver now with a transplanted HEMI Crate 528. It was also in the MOpar Muscle Magazine I believe on the cover to be exact.

Next thing on my list is this, the VON don't follow a sequential order, or at least I don't see how they could. The last VIN for a 500 I have the fender tag information on is the Black HEMI 500 that was just for sale recently, VIN XX29L9B248663, which has a VON of 925742.

Gene I know you looked at the list for Daytona's a lot. did you notice any cars with a higher VIN number that have a lower VON number than an earlier car? Reason I ask is because some of the 500's have VIN's of 238xxx with a lower VON than a car with a VIN starting 224xxx.    I can think of one case like this off the top of my head, a car built on 9/27 has a VON ending in 088, and a car built on 9/20 has a VON ending in 162. So how does that work? Car 110610 has a VON ending with 000, but I haven't seen another car with 001, or 002, or 003. I have seen the car with 004, and 005. With 004 being the first AT car I have seen. And tell me this, do you guys really think they built 200+ HEMI 500's?  Here is another case in point MY VIN is XX29L9B224393, with a VON of 925332 where as 69Charger500's stated his VON is 925303 with a late VIN but same build date as my car. Cars with similar VINs to his car, or at least close are mostly built on C04, with VON's in the 9255xx range. I haven't ever figured out a pattern to any of these VON's on these cars.

Has anyone here every personally seen a Charger 500 with a VIN on the dash starting XS? I have seen 1. JUST 1. Now I have seen 30+ cars with XS on the fender tag, like I stated before every car I have seen with a build date prior to B14 has XS on the fender tag. As far as the Haldiman car and my dad's old 500 having XS on the fender tag I am not sure on that. But I would say i'm 90% sure it is XX on the fender tag, maybe XS on t he build sheet.