440 build suggestions needed

[firefighter3931]

Hi Doug, nice to see you back on board. Congrats again on the new racecar. The Charger's no slouch either...it has low 11 high 10 potential inmo. I still remember my first ride in that car....gave me whiplash when ya dropped the hammer.   Steve will be getting the "stroker feeling" soon enough....  

Ron

[jersey500charger]

this is some very interesting stuff being im in the same process 68 440 that twisted a connecting rod like a pretzel . blocks been bored 60 over  i have 906 heads  just ordered a new set of pistons and rods  the last set of rods i had ordered 2 times because they were so gram mismatched im suggesting dont usem they were the cat rods  1.094 pressed pin from mad dog racing  well after that 2 tries i also had to change the speed pro l2266f flat tops which was for pressed fit so now i went with srp 60 over dished at 9.3to1 thats with 84cc   so i know ill be less with the 906 heads which is great for 93 octane heads have had hardened ex seats installed also a 3 surface valve job the rods i got were the scat h beams rated up to 800hp with the arp bolts im not sure of the cam that was in there originally but machinist says he can find that out once he has all the other parts for balancing  a  friend of mine told me i shouldnt go over a 500 lift   i was looking at the mopar cam 284/284 @50 lift 494 is this a good mildly lopey cam for this setup.?
on the top end i have an edelbrock rpm manifold and edy 750 manual choke carb 1/2inch spacer  have the 3/8fuel lines all new from the tank forward  new fuel rod  an 8.5 psi manual fuel pump no limiter on pressure  someone told me the 750 will handle the 8.5 psi no problem but im wondering if this had anything to do with detonation  problem  that may have caused the rod to fail any help? oh i also bought new crank from 440 source  which looked like  a nice piece .i have another question only cause i keep getting so many different answers my block was bored 20 over when motor failed  machinist said it wouldnt clean up until 55 but went to 60 cause of piston choice  he hasnt sonic tested i dont think he has this equipment im just hoping because this is a earlier casting it wll hold up ive read in the mopar rb book that 60 is the max but other places to not shed 40  how true is or is 60 ok? if i would have known about the stroker combo earlier i would have gone that route seems the better choice  but ill just have to go the way im going now .this motor going back onto my 70 charger 500 it was converted to a 4 speed car a833  the gearing im not sure of but i do know its a 8 3/4 non posi  would like to get a set of 355s with the auburn spool the gearing thats in there now winds high rpms at like 50 so im thinking maybe hes got 4 10 s in it  ?als have to get new flywheel  and clutch plates .well  this has been great reading if you can give me a lil advice im all ears too thanks 

[Steve P.]

  :devil:Someone mention stroker??

[Ghoste]

Jersey, if your block is a 68 440, you are probably safe with the .060 over.  I'd still want it tested, but you are likely okay.  Excessive fuel pressure wouldn't cause detonation but it would show all the symptoms of floats not set properly.  That is everything from difficulty setting the idle to fouled plugs.
As for the 284 MP cam, it's a good cam and would work well enough for you, but, it is an old stick now.  There are just SO many modern grinds out there now that are Mopar specific that you really owe it to yorself and your car to check one of them out.
I like Steve's line of thinking.

[firefighter3931]

Joe, the engine build sounds good. I suppose you're looking for a descent cam recommendation for this combo. Lunati has just released a new line of cams called the "VooDoo" series and they look pretty good. The 268* grind looks like a nice match for a warmed over 440.

Pn 60303 is what i'm talking about. If you go this route make sure and order the matching valvesprings. Have a look at the description in the link:

http://www.holley.com/types.asp?type=502

Ron

[Duey]

Joe, the engine build sounds good. I suppose you're looking for a descent cam recommendation for this combo. Lunati has just released a new line of cams called the "VooDoo" series and they look pretty good. The 268* grind looks like a nice match for a warmed over 440.

Pn 60303 is what i'm talking about. If you go this route make sure and order the matching valvesprings. Have a look at the description in the link:

http://www.holley.com/types.asp?type=502

Ron

Ron, hearing all this stuff about new grinds and all...would a 60304 make a nice .509 replacement for a car running 3500-3800 stall and 4.10's (i.e. mine when I get home)? 

Also thinking Proform 850 or just go out and bet a 4150HP 830 annular, and...dare I even think of the $$$ flying out of the wallet, some Indy EZ heads... 

Cheers,
Duey

[firefighter3931]

Ron, hearing all this stuff about new grinds and all...would a 60304 make a nice .509 replacement for a car running 3500-3800 stall and 4.10's (i.e. mine when I get home)?  

Also thinking Proform 850 or just go out and bet a 4150HP 830 annular, and...dare I even think of the $$$ flying out of the wallet, some Indy EZ heads...  

Cheers,
Duey

Yep, the 60304 would be a major improvement in terms of street manners and drivability. Manifold vacuum and low end response will be a lot better with this grind vs. the 509. The power brakes will also feel much improved. The 830 annular 4150 is what i would choose for your combo.

Edelbrock just announced the release of the new Victor head....should be on the market in the new year. They look promising and should make an excellent "hot street/strip" head if they're as good as advertised. They do require offset rockers on the intake but other than that they look to be pretty much a bolt on deal.

Be safe over there Duey and save some coin for the spring....should be a good car season coming up. 

Ron

[Duey]

Thanks, will do, Ron!  Doctorpimp and I got together over here and had a good chat about Chargers...we'll have to get together with you to see your 493(?) when we both get back.

p.s. on topic, would a set of ductile iron 1.5 rockers work for the Victors?

Cheers,
Duey

[firefighter3931]

p.s. on topic, would a set of ductile iron 1.5 rockers work for the Victors?

Cheers,
Duey

Unfortunately, no. The intake valve is offset with the Victors so they need offset rocker arms. The indy EZ will work fine with the Ductile irons as will the Performer Rpm's. Here's another E-head buildup that turned out well after some tweaking....the original cam & intake were all wrong but it's making real good power now. Have a look at this thread :

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6000.0.html

Ron

[firefighter3931]

p.s. on topic, would a set of ductile iron 1.5 rockers work for the Victors?

Cheers,
Duey

If you're going with the ductile rockers you might as well upgrade to a solid cam. The kv2/kv3 on a 110 lsa would be a nice stick for the green monster. The short seat timing will make it street and powerbrake friendly.

Ron

[Duey]

p.s. on topic, would a set of ductile iron 1.5 rockers work for the Victors?

Cheers,
Duey

If you're going with the ductile rockers you might as well upgrade to a solid cam. The kv2/kv3 on a 110 lsa would be a nice stick for the green monster. The short seat timing will make it street and powerbrake friendly.

Ron

Funny how you came back to the Engle grinds, Ron.  I was just thinking about them as well...kind of an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of thing...especially if I'm thinking of the Victor (or EZ) heads.  I know Neil is a fan of them [Engle cams] too.  Hmmmmm...KV2/3 with Victor heads...maybe I'll be needing a 4150HP 950? 

Ron, that combo would make some serious horsies, wouldn't it...maybe I'll be needing to ARP my bottom end, too?

Cheers,
Duey

[firefighter3931]

Funny how you came back to the Engle grinds, Ron.   I was just thinking about them as well...kind of an "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of thing...especially if I'm thinking of the Victor (or EZ) heads.   I know Neil is a fan of them [Engle cams] too.   Hmmmmm...KV2/3 with Victor heads...maybe I'll be needing a 4150HP 950?  

Ron, that combo would make some serious horsies, wouldn't it...maybe I'll be needing to ARP my bottom end, too?

Cheers,
Duey

Yep, i do like those Engle grinds. My Comp Custom in the 446 is allmost identical to the KV-5 and it made very good power.

On the heads: the flow #'s are impressive to look at on these new castings....330cfm (Victor)....340cfm (EZ-295cnc). But as you know flow isn't everything. An efficient port is just as important because you want to maintain velocity at lower engine speeds. The victor has a 280cc intake port...the indy 295cnc has a 295cc port, obviously. Compare to the performer rpm head that has a 210cc port. The smaller ported combo will have better throttle response and bottom end power....velocity is the key. The Victor and big ez295cc are race heads inmo or a good choice for a 500 ci stroker.

If i was you, i'd stick with the plan and go with the SD, kv2/kv3 and those beautifully worked iron heads. You've got the gears and converter sorted out....now you need to match up the engine components.  

Ron

[Duey]

Roger that, Ron.  I'll conduct a multiphase operation as follows: 

a) see how the ported 452 + an 830 4150 and the 4.10/3500rpm combo work,
b) consider the KV2 or KV3 with beer can heads based on what I see from above.

I have a feeling that even the ported/matched iron HP carb and convertor gears will be a significant increase...

Thanks again, Ron.
Duey

[firefighter3931]

Roger that, Ron.   I'll conduct a multiphase operation as follows:  

a) see how the ported 452 + an 830 4150 and the 4.10/3500rpm combo work,
b) consider the KV2 or KV3 with beer can heads based on what I see from above.

I have a feeling that even the ported/matched iron HP carb and convertor gears will be a significant increase...

Thanks again, Ron.
Duey

I like the multiphase plan   The only deviation i'd make is going to the kv2/kv3 right off the bat   The street manners and low end response will be significantly improved over the 509 and your power brakes will feel soooo much better. It will pull harder up top too...you'll be widening the powerband significantly. If you still want more....then you could upgrade the heads in the future and keep the bottom end intact....it just becomes a basic head swap at that point.  

Ron

[Runner]

ron. on the victor heads they made the spacer biult into the runner unlike a stage 6. so a fair chunk of that runner volume is the longer runner, not so much a larger one..    however im sure its still a fair bit larger than a 210 cc runner, but the 280 is deceiving

[Duey]

Dang, Runner...those are nice looking heads!

[jersey500charger]

thanks for the advice there .well has anyone used srp pistons here  there the dished  ones  whats the difference i will see with my particular heads 906s open as compared to a flat top piston with open heads

[firefighter3931]

thanks for the advice there .well has anyone used srp pistons here   there the dished   ones   whats the difference i will see with my particular heads 906s open as compared to a flat top piston with open heads

Go with a flattop piston to maximize compression. A dished piston will lower the compression too much.

Ron

[firefighter3931]

ron. on the victor heads they made the spacer biult into the runner unlike a stage 6. so a fair chunk of that runner volume is the longer runner, not so much a larger one..      however im sure its still a fair bit larger than a 210 cc runner, but the 280 is deceiving

Hi Mike, thanks for the pic....those do look nice ! It'll be interesting to see how the added port volume translates onto the dyno. The Indy SR's are 265cc out of the box and these are even bigger. 280cc still seems big for a street 3.75 stroke combo, but time will tell. Being that it's advertised as a "race head" i'm inclined to think it'll be soft (lower engine speeds) at street friendly compression ratios with ~ 450 cubes.

Ron

[Runner]

the pics are from hughes engines websight.    i acually thought about waiting for the victors for a bit before i did the rpm heads.  when i heard they needed a offset intake rocker  it was out of the question for my junk. just to much money in my book.

[firefighter3931]

when i heard they needed a offset intake rocker   it was out of the question for my junk. just to much money in my book.

Ya Mike, that certainly has to be factored into the cost of the entire conversion. That might be where an indy SR or EZ casting has an advantage....both use standard rockers. The pricing on the Victors' vs. the EZ's will determine how cost effective the swap from something with a std intake rocker will be. I have Harland Sharp's which can be purchased individually for the offset intake valves....but that would have to be factored into the overall cost. I do like that the victors have the std port window allowing for the use of any std manifold. The higher flowing ez's have a max wedge intake port so you're into a new manifold at that point. I think those MW indy intakes go for ~ $350.00

Ron

[Duey]

Hmmmm, Ron, so it's either big flow with an EZ head but they need a Max Wedge intake, or offset intake rockers on the Victor but standard pattern intake so my Street Dom would work.  I would need new rockers for a KV2/KV3, so would I be able to run offset intakes with standard iron in anticipation of going for Victor heads later or just go with straight rockers, be happy with RPMs (keeping valve train same upgrading from KV2/3 and SD intake) or swap the intake rockers later if I decide on Victor's...

Gut feel, KV2/3 with straight rockers now....offset rockers if I get Victor's in the future? 

Thanks in advance, Ron!

Duey

[firefighter3931]

Hmmmm, Ron, so it's either big flow with an EZ head but they need a Max Wedge intake, or offset intake rockers on the Victor but standard pattern intake so my Street Dom would work.   I would need new rockers for a KV2/KV3, so would I be able to run offset intakes with standard iron in anticipation of going for Victor heads later or just go with straight rockers, be happy with RPMs (keeping valve train same upgrading from KV2/3 and SD intake) or swap the intake rockers later if I decide on Victor's...

Gut feel, KV2/3 with straight rockers now....offset rockers if I get Victor's in the future?  

Thanks in advance, Ron!

Duey

Duey,

Lots of options eh ? I'm thinking the Victor is going to be a high rpm head on a 440. The upside is that a stock SD will bolt to them and clear a stock hood, downside is the offset rockers. The indy MW intake is BIG and will kill any bottom end power on a 440....forget about using a stock hood w/o a scoop...it's much like a Victor intake only bigger runners. The basic indy EZ has a std port window but flows similar to a performer rpm....so you're no further ahead there. Same with the Indy SR only now you've got raised ex.ports to contend with which means the dedicated raised port TTI's and big $$.

So, that brings us back to the performer rpm's which accept everything. Interestingly, Mike (Runner) just bolted a set on his with headman 1.75 in headers and they fit with a few minor tweaks. So, the rpm's fit with a number of different headers....some better than others.

The "if it were me" answer regarding the green monster would be to go with the kv2/kv3 with a set of ductile iron rockers for now. You can decide later on the heads and go from there. At that point you'll be considering a rod/piston upgrade if you decide to go "really wild". The stock bottom end will only take so much power. Also, the valve relief area in a 6-pack piston isn't exactly setup for the "killer" cam lifts anyway. If you do decide on the rpm heads later down the road, the engle cam will be fine in terms of P/V clearance with the RPM casting.

Sorry to muddy the waters for ya...lol. Too many choices !  

Ron

[Duey]

Actually Ron, that sorts it out...that was my gut feel (KV2 or 3 with iron rockers and go from there.)  I figure my heads will be OK for about 220-230-ish conservatively if I get the blending finished right...MM pulled 240 out of theirs, so mid-220's wouldn't be too shabby.  I'm thinking the KV2 or 3 will get more air in under the curve than the 509 anyway.  take it from there...I'd be happy with 350-ish RWHP...   Thanks again!

Cheers,
Duey

[firefighter3931]

Actually Ron, that sorts it out...that was my gut feel (KV2 or 3 with iron rockers and go from there.)   I figure my heads will be OK for about 220-230-ish conservatively if I get the blending finished right...MM pulled 240 out of theirs, so mid-220's wouldn't be too shabby.   I'm thinking the KV2 or 3 will get more air in under the curve than the 509 anyway.   take it from there...I'd be happy with 350-ish RWHP...   Thanks again!

Cheers,
Duey

The heads will be better than 220ish, especially at the kv-2/kv3 valve lifts. The big valve upgrade along with a bowl blend of the plunge cut and a little unshrouding/guide boss trimming should be in the 245-250 cfm range. This is an easy 450 hp combo, possibly more....350rwhp is easily within your grasp.  

Ron