440 build suggestions needed

[steves66]

I finally landed a 1966 440 motor that I am getting ready to send to the machine shop to have checked out and the machine work done. Before I do I want to have my "ducks" in a row, and my mind made up on the upgrades I go with. I will be driving the car mostly on the street, but it will see some track time. Things I know for certain is that I will be stroking it. I will probably go with the 440 source kit. Also, I will be going with E-heads, but I don't know if I should go with the 84cc or 88cc??? Now let the questions begin for those of you who have done these massive HP rebuilds. What compression ratio should I be shooting for to run pump gas? What cam, intake, carb, and torque convertor combo should I be looking at? This is probably the most critical area that I want to get right from the start. I have read many times that these areas are the most important to match. The lumpy idle don't bother me, I just don't want to set the idle at 2000 to keep it running, that's a little too much for my use. Also, headers and exhaust is going to be a player in letting it flow, any recommendations?
Some more about my car that might be helpful. 66 Charger, rebuilt 727 with trans-go shift kit, gear vendors overdrive, 4.10 rear with auburn sure grip, pinion snubber, and frame connectors.  Bottom line is that I want to have one lethal street machine that will turn good numbers at the track. Thanks for any input/advice you guys can give me!

[RD]

heads:   eddy 84cc (more compression, better quench)

compression ratio:   aluminum heads will (mostly) allow up to 10.5 to 1 without pinging on pump gas

intake: victor or mopar m1

carb:   800 or larger cfm demon/dominator/or EPS eddy

cam:   totally matters on if you use hydraulic, solid or roller (solid or hydraulic)

torque converter:   3500-3800

this is totally generalized, but i know ron or neil will give you a more definite answer if given the opportunity.   there are so many variables on this that i usually do not reply to these, but i felt sorry for you because 12 people have viewed this and not responded.

[Runner]

the 88 cc eddy heads are basically for the people that have a quench piston aready in thier motor and want to upgrade from thier factory iron open chamber heads.   i have kb quench pistons in my 452, i planed to upgrade to eddy when i was putting my motor together so my friend/machinest cut the quench domes off the pistons for me.  i i can run the 84 cc closed chambered head with out issue when money alows ( hopefully santa will bring me a set)


notice in the first pic the dome,  then in the second pic the dome is gone.       




   

[Chryco Psycho]

if you are doing the 440 source kit how much ci are you stroking too , you want to have approx 10.8 -1 compression with alum heads so generally the 84 cc heads & flat top pistons work best 

[steves66]

Thanks for the replies. I will probably have the block bored .30, so I guess that would make it a 496??? I will probably go with a hydraulic cam, although I have been looking into the hydraulic roller set up, what do you guys think of the hyd roller?
No need to feel sorry for me, I am just looking for suggestions not asking anyone to build my motor for me.

[firefighter3931]

if you are doing the 440 source kit how much ci are you stroking too , you want to have approx 10.8 -1 compression with alum heads so generally the 84 cc heads & flat top pistons work best  

A flattop piston with the 84cc closed chambers makes for a nice street/strip combo. A .030 over 440 with a 4.15 crank is a 493ci motor.   You'll want a bigger cam in this motor because the larger displacement will eat up the duration...Have a look or at least consider a solid flat tappet grind in the 250@.050 range. It will idle better and make more power than a similarly sized hydraulic grind. An 850dp, holley street dominator intake and 2in tti headers would round out the combo nicely.

Easy 550hp/600tq and more is available with some portwork on the heads and a bigger cam...just depends what you're looking for. The most noticable improvement over a 440 will be the massive torque increase. You'll be able to lite up a street tire from just about any speed.  

Ron

[steves66]

Thanks Ron. What brand of cam is the best in your opinion? I plan on having the e-heads fully ported before I put this motor together. I am going to try and sqeese every last bit of power out of this build the my wallet will allow, or should I say my wife!

[firefighter3931]

Steve, there are a lot of good cam companes ot there. I like Comp Cams personally....got one of their cams in my e-head 446. You need to pick the profile based on driving style and the rest of the car's build. The gearing and stall speed come into play when making these types of decisions. A custom ground bumpstick will be the best way to go, inmo. There is only a small price increase for having a cam custom ground to your specs and it is well worth doing. I agree on the head porting....it's not too difficult to get 300cfm out of an edelbrock head and that will put the motor in 600hp territory with the right cam/intake/headers.

For a pump gas motor you'll want to keep the compression ratio at 10.5:1 to keep detonation at bay. Diamond Racing makes a nice dished piston that's perfect for this application. That piston has a 12cc dish and is designed for use with a closed chamber head.

Ron

[steves66]

I have been looking at the Comp Cams High Energy High lift with the specs of; duration @.050 251/257 and the adv. duration is 295/307 and the lift is .564. What do you think of this cam? The torque convertor I have been looking at is the TCI Super Street Fighter with a stall speed of 3800 to 4000 and a Holley Street Dominator and 2" TTI headers with 3" exhaust with X pipe and Delta Flow mufflers. Does this combo match up pretty good. One area I am concerned with is the high stall speed. Do you think I will have to go that much with that cam choice?

[IBsmokin]

I love this thread, I am also starting a 440 rebuild, keep the info rolling.

[firefighter3931]

I have been looking at the Comp Cams High Energy High lift with the specs of; duration @.050 251/257 and the adv. duration is 295/307 and the lift is .564. What do you think of this cam? The torque convertor I have been looking at is the TCI Super Street Fighter with a stall speed of 3800 to 4000 and a Holley Street Dominator and 2" TTI headers with 3" exhaust with X pipe and Delta Flow mufflers. Does this combo match up pretty good. One area I am concerned with is the high stall speed. Do you think I will have to go that much with that cam choice?

Things i would change:

(1) cam...that one is too small for a 493. If you had to go with an off the shelf grind, the comp magnum 306-S which is a solid flat tappet grind. It specs out at 306@.020/260@.050/.555 lift/110 lsa. This grind will be compatible with the stock e-head springs and save you some $$. Use a 1.5:1 rocker arm...crane ductile iron would be the most economical option.

(2) Converter...Turbo Action is a much better unit than TCI and this combo will make monster torque. You need a good quality converter. The TA 10 in "tight" would be my choice. You won't know it's in there until you hammer the throttle.  

(3) mufflers...the flowmaster chambered mufflers are very restrictive and will slow the car down, believe it or not. The dynomax ultraflows are far superior. With a 2in header and 3in x-pipe exhaust system you will be much happier.

Ron

[morepower]

oh man i need to get my cardoneso i can drop in my stroker!

[steves66]

I have never had a cam custom ground. Can I just call up comp cams and tell them my engine specs and they will custom grind a cam for me, or is it much more complicated than this? What stall does the TA 10 have? Believe it or not, the DynoMax mufflers is what I meant to say. I have no idea why I said Delta Flows! The crane ductile rocker arm you mentioned and said the most economical, although economical, does it still have good quality? How does it compare to the Harland Sharp? Thanks for all of your suggestions! This is info is very helpful!

[firefighter3931]

I have never had a cam custom ground. Can I just call up comp cams and tell them my engine specs and they will custom grind a cam for me, or is it much more complicated than this? What stall does the TA 10 have? Believe it or not, the DynoMax mufflers is what I meant to say. I have no idea why I said Delta Flows! The crane ductile rocker arm you mentioned and said the most economical, although economical, does it still have good quality? How does it compare to the Harland Sharp? Thanks for all of your suggestions! This is info is very helpful!

Yes, Comp can suggest a grind or if you like i can help spec one out and you can run it by Comp to get their feedback. You need to decide how nasty vs mellow sounding you want this motor. A tighter lsa will make it rougher idling and widening out the lsa will tame it down and spread out the powerband. Just depends what you decide you want out of it.

The TA 10in will stall around 3500-3800 but don't worry....it'll feel like a stock converter during normal driving conditions. I recommended this converter to Sublime69 on this board and he luvs it.

I like Harland Sharp and run those on my own motor. If you decide to go the roller rocker route, those would be my first choice. The HS are fully rollerized on the tip as well as the fulcrum. The kit is the best way to go because it comes with rockers, spacers, shafts and holdowns. The HS's require a special hardened shaft with their rocker arms and you'll need those anyway.   The crane iron rockers can get the job done on a budget and will save you a few hundred $....but if the funds permit....the HS's are definately the way to go.

As for gearing on this car....4.10 would be the deepest you would need to go. This combo will make huge torque so launching the car won't be a problem. Keeping rubber on the back will.....  


Ron

[steves66]

If you don't mind tell me the spec on a cam that I should have custom ground. Here goes, 493 stroker, flat top Ross pistons CR of 10:1, E-heads ported, Holley Street Dominator intake, carb???, TA 10" converter, Harland Shrap roller rocker kit, 2" TTI headers, 3" exhuast with X pipe with DynoMax mufflers, I already have the 4.10 gear with sure grip. As far as the ideling goes, as long as I don't have to set the idel at 2000 just to make it idel it should be fine. I would like to be somewhere in the middle of nasty and mild, if that makes sense.

[firefighter3931]

Ok Steve, one last question. How much do you plan to drive the car....any long trips or mainly around town cruising. That will make a difference on cam selection because more agressive lobe designs shouldn't be driven for extended periods. Would you be happy with a nice smooth 550hp engine or are you looking more in the 600hp range ? Does this car have power assisted brakes ?

Ron

[steves66]

Ron, the car might be driven a couple times a week mostly around town. I might take a 2 or 3 hour trip every now and then to shows and stuff. I would like to get as close to 600 hp as possible and still have some steetability if that is possible. The car had power brakes before I started the restoration. If I want to put the power brakes back on should I use a vacuum can?

[Duey]

Ron, the car might be driven a couple times a week mostly around town. I might take a 2 or 3 hour trip every now and then to shows and stuff. I would like to get as close to 600 hp as possible and still have some steetability if that is possible. The car had power brakes before I started the restoration. If I want to put the power brakes back on should I use a vacuum can?

Steve, you're probably looking at either a can or an electric pump -- I am.  Ron kind of chuckled when I told him I was running power brakes on my '73...the MP 509 on 108 centers is not particularly know for high vacuum...but it sure does sound sweet at idle and for an old cam, it's pretty darn lively at higher RPM!  I thought I had a torn/broken diaphragm in my brake booster...nope....just no vacuum! 

Cheers,
Duey

[firefighter3931]

Ron, the car might be driven a couple times a week mostly around town. I might take a 2 or 3 hour trip every now and then to shows and stuff. I would like to get as close to 600 hp as possible and still have some steetability if that is possible. The car had power brakes before I started the restoration. If I want to put the power brakes back on should I use a vacuum can?

Hi Steve, power brakes will influence the cam selection somewhat. You need descent street manners and idle vacuum to use power assisted accessories which means the cam needs to be specced out on a wider lsa. This means it will idle pretty nice....similar to a 440 with the "street hemi" grind at around 850-900 rpm. That type of grind will make 550-560hp and 600ftlbs of torque. I'm thinking you'd be happier with this type of cam given the style of driving you intend to do with the car.

Torque is what really matters for street driven cars and this motor will have no shortage of that. For reference, a 493 with this type of build would have no problem running 11's in your car, make enough manifold vacuum to run power brakes, not load up around town and foul plugs....and generally be a joy to drive. It would also have a noticable idle that nobody will mistake for stock.      This type of cam will also be easier on the valvetrain components and extend engine life.    A hotter cam means more agressive valve action, upgraded valvesprings with increased opening rates and more wear on all the associated components.   

There are pros and cons to both types of cams and i just wanted to make you aware before you make a final decision. The hotter cam will make an extra 40hp but you'd hardly notice it unless you were racing the car every w/e...and it will be less enjoyable to drive. From your description it sounds like the car will be driven to car shows and cruised a fair bit.

Ron

[steves66]

If the hotter cam will make 40 more horse, but will only be noticed when racing, then I say lets stick to the milder cam that will make approx 550 to 560 hp and 600 ftlbs torque. I will be cruising more than racing. A car that runs in the 11's is nothing to be ashamed of. The power brakes is not that important to me either. I can live without them. I already upgraded to front discs. If I do use power brakes, will the vacuum can work with a hot cam?

[firefighter3931]

If I do use power brakes, will the vacuum can work with a hot cam?

Steve,

Yes it will, but a vacuum can is not the ideal situation for that type of application. You get a couple of pumps with the pedal and then it will go hard again. I prefer to have the booster run off engine vacuum as opposed to having to rely on a secondary reservoir.

Ok, here's your cam :

Comp cams High rpm series-2
Intake lobe # 6331
exhaust lobe # 6331
LSA: 112 *

This will have to be custom ground by Comp and make sure to specify the 112* Lobe Seperation Angle. The cam will spec out like this:

Duration @ .020 lift: 291* in/ex
Duration @ .050 lift: 260* in/ex
Duration @ .200 lift: 171* in/ex
Lobe lift: .371 in/ex
LSA: 112*

The gross lift with a HS 1.5 roller rocker which is actually 1.53:1 (a good thing) will be : .371 lobe lift x 1.53 rr =   .568 total lift. After lash is factored in the net lift will be just under .550 lift which is right where you want to be with the e-heads. I have the next size up grind in my 440 and it made as much as 560hp. In your case the extra cubic inches and longer stroke will make more torque and hp than mine did....especially the torque ! It will also idle much nicer than mine due to the increased engine volume and wider lsa.  This is where strokers have an advantage.....the longer stroke does all the work instead of having to wind out a smaller/shorter stroke combo. 

This cam will be very stable at higher rpms with the stock e-head springs and you won't need to worry about valve float. This is not a super agressive grind but will generate enough valve speed to get the job done without beating the valvetrain to death. Peak hp will come in ~ 5800-6000 rpm with a nice flat torque curve.

So there you have it.....the "what i would do" answer if i was choosing a cam for your combo....or building it for myself given the same parameters.  A Street Dominator intake manifold and 850cfm double pumper would round out the build quite nicely. The TTI 2 in headers/3in x-pipe exhaust are the obvious choice for this build.

Ron

[steves66]

Ron, I really appreciate all of your help. I am going to finish breaking my motor down today so I can get it to the machine shop tomorrow and start ordering parts. I will also call comp cams tomorrow to get them started on my cam. I will keep you updated on the progress. One more question if you don't mind, my 440 only has 88,000 miles and has never been touched, I was planning on having it bored .030, would you go more or less or leave it with the stock bore?

[firefighter3931]

I was planning on having it bored .030, would you go more or less or leave it with the stock bore?

Most of the stroker kits come with a .030 over piston or bigger. I wouldn't bore it any more than needed. When you order the stroker kit make sure to outline what you've got and what you're looking for. Ideally you should have the pistons at zero deck on the quench side with a dish on the chamber side. The compression ratio should be 10.5:1 max if you want to run it on pump fuel. The 440 source kits come with a custom piston option that is worth upgrading to for a few extra dollars. Get the compression ratio and quench distance dialed in properly and your engine will be much happier....detonation ruins motors. You definately want the 84cc closed chamber e-heads....the 88cc open chamber e-heads have poor quench characteristics and will cause issues with a flattop piston.  

Consider this: A local guy building a 493 stroker last year asked my opinion on his proposed build. The compression was too high (11.25) and the motor had poor quench (.057). He built it anyway and felt it would work fine on pump gas...others told him he would be OK. Guess what, it pings like crazy and he has to mix race fuel in with the pump premium.     He has since admitted that he wished he'd spent more time dialing in the compression ratio and quench characteristics of the build. This was a hard lesson learned for him and this is one case where i wished i'd been wrong. He has been able to get it to run on pump fuel but he has to retard the timing severely to keep it from pinging...which kills the power and defeats the purpose of building a high compression engine in the first place.

Sorry for the long winded answer but i wanted you to be aware of these types of issues and afford you the opportunity to at least consider what i'm saying, before making any "parts selection" decisions. Attention to detail will make all the difference in the world.  

Ron

[steves66]

I made the same mistake on a Chebby motor I built for a Vette I had many years ago. I went 11.5:1 and it pinged like crazy. I don't ever want to make that mistake again.
So, with the 84cc heads and a good quality flat top piston I should be OK. I could also use a thicker head gasket if need be. 440 source has flat top, dished, and domed pistons that can had with the kit. In your opinion, which one of these would be better for the specs we talked about? I know the domed is out, but the flat top and the dished options I am kinda unclear on. You mentioned zero deck on the quench side and the dish on the chamber side. Sounds like you are referring to a dished piston.
I have built a few motors in the past and thought I had my stuff together, but for the past few days getting your advice just proves to me that I have a lot to learn! Thanks for your expertise!

[firefighter3931]

Steve, you are correct, i am referring to a dished piston. You will need a 12cc dish to achieve a true 10.5:1 compression ratio with a zero deck 493.

Here's the math:

Bore: 4.35
Stroke: 4.15
Ci: 493.4
Chamber volume: 84cc closed chamber e-head
Compressed gasket thickness: .040 (Felpro pn 1009 head gasket)
Dish volume: 12cc

* results: 10.56:1 static compression ratio.  

So basicly, you need a zero deckheight on the quench side of the head. The block will need to be trimmed down depending on where the deckheight is at this point. It should be squared up anyway for this type of build....no big deal, inmo. The compressed thickness of the head gasket becomes your "quench zone". A .040 is ideal and anything beyond .060 becomes non-effective in terms of quench....the closer to .040 the better. Tight quench motors make more power, create a better burn in the chamber and prevent predetonation. That is why it is so important to dial it in correctly along with the static compression ratio, especially with the quality of fuel that is available these days.

The "right" piston for this application is going to be a flattop with a 12cc dish. I'll be building the same engine in the next year or so and this is the combination that i've settled on for a pump gas combo.

Ron