440 build suggestions needed

[steves66]

Ron, my machinist has been doing this for many, many years. I haven't talked with him yet about this build, and can't until tomorrow, he's closed on Mondays. Anyway, I am assuming that he will have to have all of my parts, crank, pistons, rods, head gasket, and head cc to know how much to take of to give me the zero deckheight. Logically thinking, if he takes off too much, that will raise the CR, correct? I am sure he knows all about this, but I want to have a good understanding before I tell him what my plans are.
I called comp cams and gave them the specs on my engine and the cam we talked about. They said by just glancing, it looks to be a good choice for my engine specs and my driving preferences. They are going to call me back tomorrow after they ran their numbers on it and give me their professional opinion!

[firefighter3931]

Steve, the machinist should mock up the shortblock first before he does any cutting on the deck. After the block has been bored of course.   This way there can be no mistake and you will achieve a true zero deck blueprinted block. Measuring the deck clearance with the rotating assembly mocked up is the only way to guarantee a positive outcome when dealing with tolerences that are this tight. I'm sure he's aware of this type of procedure, or at least i hope he is.

I'll be interested to hear what Comp has to say on the cam. They could very well recommend something different. I'm using my own personal experience regarding the cam profile as i'm using the same lobe family in my own engine, allthough slightly larger and on a tighter lsa. I know that this grind works and won't be too hard on the valvetrain....and that's why i recommended it. The fact that it will be compatible with the stock e-head springs is a bonus because it saves you money on the build.The e-head springs have 130lbs seat pressure and 340-350 lbs open so you need to select a lobe that is compatible with those spring pressures....assuming you don't want to swap out the valve springs. Selecting too agressive a profile with the improperly matched springs will send the valves into float at higher rpm. I had mine spinning to 6500 on the dyno for multiple passes (80+) and there were absolutely no valve float issues. This is a dyno proven combination.....I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending it otherwise.

Ron

[steves66]

Ron, this will be the 6th motor that my machinist has done for me. He was the one that introduced me to having the rotation assembly balanced. I've had him to deck blocks, but I have never had one at zero deck height. I am sure he has done this before, but like you said, at least I hope he has! I will find out today. I got my block broke down and ready to take to him.
80+ passes on the dyno at 6500, wow! That's proof enough for me. What were your numbers?
The cam you speced out for me was a flat tappet, not a roller, correct? I'll let you know what comp says when they call me back.

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve,

The cam i suggested is a flat tappet solid lifter grind. My combo is a street friendly (.040 tight quench) 10.5:1 446 with e-heads. The bottom end is all stock, believe it or not....but it's been tweaked with arp hardware and a balancing job, of course. The motor made 535hp/540tq with the street dominator and 830cfm carb. We tried a Victor intake on it and it really woke up....560hp/540 tq. The victor is a tall intake and won't clear a stock hood so i went with the street dominator. A friend built a mild 493 along the lines of what i've recommended for you and that motor made 560hp/600tq and idles smooth.....nothing like mine.     The car even has A/C, lol.

The long arm cranks really make big torque....that is where the advantage is. You can build a nice mellow engine and have it make tire burning bottom end power without having to wind the crap out of it. You'll be shocked at how much low end power this combo will make. If you've never driven a BB mopar stroker before, you're in for a very pleasant surprise.  

Ron

[steves66]

That is unbelievable the the Victor gave you 25 more horse! Do you thing it will give my combo that much more? If so, it will hard for me not to get the Victor and cut a hole im my hood and add a scoop!
I have never driven a BB Mopar stroker before. The car originally had a stock 383 in it, and it wasn't too shabby! I am a gear head and I love power, so this build has got me very excited.
I talked to my machinist this morning and he knew exactly what I was talking about when I asked him about the zero deck. He told me that he would have to have the complete rotating assembly to get it exact. He said it would be no problem. I also told him what my plans are and the specs I am going with, he said that build would have more power than I will ever need or rarely use! I told him there was no such thing as too much power! He said," it's your life, not mine". He was joking of coarse.

[firefighter3931]

Steve,

The victor was a bit of a surprise, but there's more to the story..... there was also a tricked out race carb on top of it as well....it didn't make those #'s with the 830dp.   We did a bunch of tuning (timing/jetting) and parts swapping on the dyno.....headers, cams, intakes, carbs, spacers etc...It was a 2 day R&D session with lots of useful information learned. I now know what this motor likes and doesn't like....

On back to back tests, the victor was worth 10hp over the street dominator.....all things being equal (same carb, headers,cam etc...). The victor also pushed the powerband up several hundred rpm and i really didn't want that for a street car. Then there is the hood clearance issue....i've got a stock hood and wanted to keep it that way. So, the decision was made to stick with the SD for those reasons. The bottom end on my shortblock is basicly stock and i wanted to keep the hp peak ~ 6200. The Victor pushed it up too high for what i consider a safe zone for a stock rod/heavy piston combo. That certainly won't be a problem for you...the stroker assemblies remove huge amounts of weight (6-7 lbs) off the rotating assembly. These things spin up like smallblocks....you'll see !

Sounds like your machinist knows his stuff. That's good because precision is important for this type of build. If you're going from a 383 to this monster my only suggestion is that you wear diapers the first time you take this badboy out !   You're in for quite a treat....

Ron

[steves66]

Sounds like your machinist knows his stuff. That's good because precision is important for this type of build. If you're going from a 383 to this monster my only suggestion is that you wear diapers the first time you take this badboy out !   You're in for quite a treat....

My machinist told me basically the same thing. He said since I have never drove a car with over 550 hp and over 600 ftlbs of torque, that he recommends that I should definitaly get a feel for it before I drop the hammer! He asked me if my suspension was set up to handle this build. I said, "I guess I am going to find out".
While I still have you on this subject, what timing chain and gears do you recommend. Also, what about lifters and pushrods? Does Harland Sharp have a set that will be a good match with their roller rocker kit?

[firefighter3931]

Steve,

A Crane 3/8in chrome moly pushrod will do the trick with the HS roller's. Rollmaster makes a nice timing chain set with 9 keyways...this is very helpful when it comes time to degree in the cam. The MP hemi repro 6 qt oilpan (7qts with filter) is plenty along with a (4.15 stroke) windage tray and hv oil pump. The hemi pan sits up nicely and doesn't hang down below the k-frame so there's no chance of tearing it off over a speedbump.   Mp also sells a hardened tip oil pump drive which you should get at the same time.

As for suspension, a new set of HD leafs should be on the shopping list...the original 383 springs are probably quite tired. A company called "espo springs" is where you can get these at a reasonable price. The hd springs will also have an extra leaf on the passenger side just like the OEM hemi springs....you definately want that with the torque this motor will generate. The 83/4 should be fine as long as you keep street tires on it. If you run slicks, eventually it will break....just so you know. It wouldn't hurt to install a new set of u-joints while it's all apart either.

On the heads, it would be beneficial to have them looked over as well. Checked for guide clearance and a performance valvejob with a back cut to the intake valves. This mod alone is worth 10cfm across the board.  

Ron

[steves66]

On the heads, it would be beneficial to have them looked over as well. Checked for guide clearance and a performance valvejob with a back cut to the intake valves. This mod alone is worth 10cfm across the board.  

Ron, I will be taking the brand new e-heads to have them ported, so you also recommend having them checked and having a valve job done? What about having the heads and the street dominator intake matched?
As far as the suspension, I have already bought the HD springs and new hangers from espo and a front end rebuild kit from PST. The rear gear is also new with a 4.10 and Auburn sure grip. I will have to have my drive shaft cut and balanced after I get the trans in to accomodate for the gear vendors unit, so I will install new u-joints then. I won't be running slicks, but I might run drag radials.
Back to the cam, I didn't specify a one bolt or a three bolt, does it matter? The stock cam that came out of it was a one bolt.

[firefighter3931]

Steve, sounds like you've formulated a solid plan.....i'm liking the parts selection...especially the gear venders OD.   Drag radials will be fine....the problem is when it dead hooks....then stuff gets stressed hard.

With an overdrive you might want to rethink the converter selection....something with a slightly tighter stall speed could be better. Call Turbo Action and ask for Paul....outline the entire combo including the GV OD unit/4.10 gearing and see what he recommends. Something around 3000-3200 might be more appropriate.

Porting the heads is a good idea....mine are mildly ported with the aformentioned guide and valve work. They ended up fowing 293 cfm at .550 lift and just under 300 cfm at .600 lift. The low and mid lift #'s improved as well with the tweaking....The e-head valve job, as delivered is OK, but there is room for improvement.   Port matching won't hurt....but mine didn't need any....everything was bang on. At least have it checked would be my suggestion.

Get the three bolt cam....you can order it either way through Comp, but for a solid grind that will be seeing some occasional 6000 rpm blasts....the 3 bolt is safer. The rollmaster chain is a 3-bolt set, btw.

Check with Mancini Racing on the oilpan....they have a package deal on the hemi pan and matching pickup. The milidon 4.15 stroke windage tray is better than the MP unit....superior drainback to the sump.  

Ron

[steves66]

Thanks Ron! I am still awaiting comp to call me back with recommendations on the cam.
I'm looking into buying new fastners too. What do you think about the main cap studs vs. the bolts? Apparently the studs are a lot better than the bolts. Man this build is going to put me under or get me divorced!

[firefighter3931]

Man this build is going to put me under or get me divorced!

Lmao at ya Steve...guess you might as well file the papers now  

Yep, go with the studs....they are a non-optional part with this kind of build, inmo. Your machinist will have to line bore the block with the studs torqued to spec and the caps in place. The tq values on a main stud are higher than on a conventional bolt. This means that the cap distorts ever so slightly but that minor distortion will create clearance issues on the mains. If your machinist is on the ball, he will line bore the block with torque plates bolted down onto the deck to simulate a head being bolted in place. The heads bolted down also has some influence on the block and it will shift around ever so slightly. We're, not talking big amounts here, maybe a couple of thousandths of an inch, but the better it's machined, the better it will run and the longer it will last.

The cylinders should also be finish honed with a deck plate in place for this same reason....you want the finished bore as round as possible for good ring seal. Attention to detail is what seperates the average motors from the outstanding ones. I also prefer a file to fit chrome moly ring for this type of application....more tedious to install be the ring end gaps end up right where you want them to be.

Ron

[steves66]

Dropped my block off yesterday. He said that he would check the line bore, but I don't have the studs yet. I guess I need to call him today and tell him I am using studs and ask him if he uses a deck plate when he bores the block.
Still no word from comp. I guess they are covered up like every other business in the US!
There was a guy at the machine shop yesterday that was talking some crap about one of those old mopar blocks that you couldn't really get a true zero deck. He didn't know if it was the 383, 440, or one of the small blocks. I have never heard of this. Have you ever heard of this? He kept going on and on saying that you can get it as close as possible, but you would never achieve zero! I told the guy I didn't know so I didn't commint on it. Never fails, seems like everytime I go to a machine shop or a speed shop of some kind there always seems to be a rocket scientist there. Who knows, this guy could actually know what he is talking about.

[firefighter3931]

There was a guy at the machine shop yesterday that was talking some crap about one of those old mopar blocks that you couldn't really get a true zero deck.

That's interesting because mine is a zero deck combo, and i know many others who've achieved that benchmark. Mopar blocks are known for being way off factory spec....in my case the corner to corner spec on one bank was off .005 and the deck was .018 over what it should have been. The right and left banks were also different....there was a .007 discrepency right to left IIRC. Square decking is part of the mandatory machining process with any performance build.  

I don't understand that statement unless he's commenting on the quality of machinework that's available locally. You just mock up and measure...then cut. Make sure your machinist has a bb mopar deck plate available for the machinework. Something else to consider would be a sonic check on the bores to determine cylinder wall thickness, particularly on the thrust side of each cylinder. It would suck to find out after spending hundreds of $$ that the cyl. walls are too thin for this application. Even early date coded castings can suffer from core shift issues.



Ron

[steves66]

Ron,
I just talked with comp. He said that the cam choice was an interesting choice, but also a good choice. He said for my driving style that he wouldn't change a thing. He did mention a similiar grind in a hydraulic roller that would give me more power. I told him I would get back to him on ordering a cam. What do you think about a hyd roller in a similiar grind? Would you use the same specs or change them for the roller? He told me to call them back if I chose the roller. I wanted to get your thoughts first.
I hope I am not aggravating the dog $%#^ out of you. If I am let me know and I will back off. I just love this stuff! I am eat up with it!

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
I just talked with comp. He said that the cam choice was an interesting choice, but also a good choice. He said for my driving style that he wouldn't change a thing.

I kinda figured he would say that. The reason being is probably not too many people call in with a specific lobe and lsa allready specced out for them. Most folks look at the "off the shelf" grinds and ask : "so what do you think this will run like ?" We've allready done most of his work for him.   While i agree it's not your typical cam choice, this is not your typical motor either. The idea is to balance power, streetability and longevity all into one nice little package.   This type of build will provide you with years of service and minimal maintenance. Oil changes, tuneups and a valve lash once a year is all this should ever need.

On the roller cam....i agree it will make more power. There are increased costs however....figure on another $1200.00 added to the cost. The e-head valvesprings will need upgrading. New locks and retainers. The roller cam itself and the matching lifters....for what, maybe 25-30hp. The valvesprings will also have a shorter lifespan and the distributor gear is made of bronze and it wears out fast too....10k miles max for either. The roller cam also requires big spring pressures....usually 500 lbs or more open and 200+ on the seat. That will put a lot of stress on the valvetrain components...rockers, pushrods, valves, seats, etc...

I prefer to keep things simple on street motors....no little wheels to come off the lifters, less moving parts to break. Nothing is simpler than a solid flat tappet.   Softer valvespring rates and less hassle....at least inmo. If i was building a drag only motor, a roller cam would be the ticket....but i like to street drive my cars...so no roller cam for me.   I'd prefer a long lasting reliable build over a go for the throat combo that will eat itself to pieces in a shorter amount of time....it's a philosphical choice i guess.

I'm not trying to talk you out of the roller by any means. The choice is basicly yours and you have to do what feels comfortable for you. I just wanted to outline my thoughts for you on the subject. I'm sure there are many out there who would disagree with me and that's OK. You build em your way and i'll build em my way....as long as you're happy, i'm happy. On a related note ; i just helped a friend build his solid roller cammed 671 blower motor in my garage. Not the way i would have gone with the cam....and yes, we're still friends. 

Ron

Ps. keep the questions coming Steve....no problemo.  

[steves66]

Ron, I have no personall experience with a roller cam, therefore, I only know what I have read and what others have told me about them. The things others have told me are along the same lines as what you just said. Also, that is kinda pricey for what you get and maybe doing it again in 10,000 miles, nope, that's not for me! I think I will stick with the cam spec you recommended.
I guess my next step is getting on the phone and start ordering parts. One hold back might be the custom Ross pistons with the 12cc dish. If I read their website correctly there is a 2 to 4 week delay in custom pistons. I don't want to order the stroker kit yet until the machinist lets me know that the block will bore .030 over without any problems. With my luck, I would order a custom piston .030 over and then the machinist would tell me that the block wouldn't clean up at .030!   So I guess I'll wait. He won't be able to look at it until next week.
I was told that a good machinist could also get a zero deck from specs. For instance, a Ross flat top piston has .017 deck clearance and by decking the block .017 that would give the zero deck and the the Fel Pro gasket of .039 would be the quench. Do you agree or disagree? I theory that should work, but ??

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve,

Have the machinist tank, mag and sonic check the block first...before ordering parts. See what you've got before comitting to a specific combination would be the best way to go. Your calculations are correct, a zero deckheight with the 1009 felpro will yield a nice tight .039 quench distance. Ideal for a pump gas street combo with closed chamber heads.

The advertised specs are based on a factory blueprinted block. If the block was in fact 10.725....the ross slugs would be .017 in the hole. The reality is that most if not all factory blocks are taller than they're supposed to be. So decking will be required no matter what piston you end up using. If it takes a little extra time to orderin the custom pistons....so be it, this is worth getting right.  

Ron

Ps. Good decision on the cam....it'll make plenty of power and be reliable.

Ps. I'll be offline 'till next week...going to Mopar Nationals in the morning so if i don't answer back for awhile, it's for that reason.

[steves66]

Wiil do Ron! I really do appreciate all of your help! I ordered the cam this morning and he told me that it would probably ship tomorrow evening.

[firefighter3931]

Wiil do Ron! I really do appreciate all of your help! I ordered the cam this morning and he told me that it would probably ship tomorrow evening.

Good stuff Steve  How did the block check out....any news ?

Ron

[steves66]

I think I might have a little stumbling block, I took the ARP main studs to him on Friday evening so he could do the line bore. When I was there he told me that the deck plate that he had was for a small block mopar and couldn't find his big block plate. He said that he would keep looking for it and try to come up with one if he couldn't find it. He is closed on Mondays and he told me by the middle of this week he would let me know if he was able to come up with one.
How was the nationals?

[firefighter3931]

Hi Steve, the nationals were great. Lots of Mopar eye candy to see and Brice Road was cool. The weather was extremely hot....felt bad for the racers....track temp was 145*   Wasn't too impressed with the vendor area....they didn't even have a map to help shoppers locate vendors, which seemed odd. The washrooms were a mess, food/drinks way overpriced, but other than that it was fabulous.

Have the machinist BUY a deck plate if need be....or you could buy one and rent it to him, lol ! Did he sonic check the cylinders ?

Ron

[steves66]

Ron, he's not started on the block yet. He had a couple of others in front of me. Hopefully by the middle or end of the week he will be able to check mine over. Where can he buy a deck plate if he can't find his? I will suggest it to him, because I know this won't be his last big block mopar he machines!

[firefighter3931]

Steve, if he can't find the plate, have the machinist order one in from his supplier.  

Ron

[Rayzor]

I hate to butt in here but it may be relevent info, I have a 440 bored .060 over that I was planning on using some 88cc E heads I have on it. The pistons are the speed pro 2266 F model. This motor at one point was going to have a blower on it so the idea was to try and keep the compression down a hair. Well plans have changed and no more blower. Would it be a major mistake to run these heads without a quench style piston? Or should I pitch them and go with a set of redone 906 heads. The E heads are still in the box but its been almost 2 years since summit sold them to me so they are mine for sure. no hijack intended