496 street motor for a '69 Charger

[heyoldguy]

A friend here in town liked the way our 451 ran in my '71 Road Runner so he asked us to do a 440 stroker for his Charger. You know, just something he could drive around and buy tires for and NEVER wind over 6000 rpm, uh huh.

   1969 440 block bored +.040"
   ProGram 4-bolt mains
   Melling HV oil pump
   4.15 stroke Eagle crank
   6.76 Eagle H-beam rods
   Diamond dished pistons
   10.3:1 compression
   Lunati 60333 Solid Roller 249/255 @ .050", .585/.600 lift 
   PRW 1.5:1 Stainless Roller Rockers
   Hughes Engines Studs and Hold Downs
   Smith Brothers Pushrods
   Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ported, keeping stock port window and 2.14/1.81 valves
      Before porting: 73cfm@.100, 148@.200, 209@.300, 254@.400, 276@.500, 287@.600, 291@.700
      After porting:   75cfm@.100, 156@.200, 221@.300, 259@.400, 292@.500, 309@.600, 321@.700
   Edelbrock Torker II intake
   950 cfm Quick Fuel
   91 octane Shell Premium
     
     RPM       TRQ        HP
     3500     608.8     405.7
     3600     616.0     422.2
     3700     617.9     435.3
     3800     623.9     451.4
     3900     624.6     463.8
     4000     626.5     477.2
     4100     628.2     490.4
     4200     635.1     507.9
     4300     633.3     518.5
     4400     638.4     534.8
     4500     640.7     549.0
     4600     642.0     562.3
     4700     640.2     572.9
     4800     639.7     584.6
     4900     636.0     593.4
     5000     628.5     598.3
     5100     627.0     608.9
     5200     619.4     613.3
     5300     611.7     617.3
     5400     613.5     630.8
     5500     604.6     633.1
     5600     595.5     635.0
     5700     590.2     640.5
     5800     581.0     641.6
     5900     570.8     641.2
     6000     557.4     636.8

MY friend was dancing around the dyno room, punching his fist in the air with a big grin on his face....froze....looked at me and said, "What do we need to do to get 700HP?"

I said, "You have been driving around with a stock 1974 440 in your Charger. Try this for a while and we'll take about more. 'Cause you have NO idea what this gonna feel like."

It's a 318 auto car he converted to 4-speed. He is doing some drivetrain and suspension work to as he can afford it. At least he has been able to start with a Mcleod street twin clutch, subframe connectors, SFI bellhousing and a drive shaft loop. I quess he'll replace the other parts as he breaks them. The guy is so busy working right now he can't even touch the car and the engine sits in a storage room.

[ChgrSteve67]

That motor is going to scare the hell out of him

[Budnicks]

heyoldguy that Eddy headed 69 Charger engine, sounds pretty impressive is that by chance 61val? form another forum

[heyoldguy]

No, 61val has a Challenger with a 440 and a set of our 452 heads. He hasn't got that car together yet. The '69 Charger is up and runnin' and one of the neighbors is getting a little stressed. The only neighbor he has within a quarter mile of him thinks the Charger isn't exactly pastoral.

[Budnicks]

That's funny

[Ryan]

Very solid numbers, how do you think that cam will hold up on the street?

[heyoldguy]

Curious question.

How did you expect me to answer?

"496 street motor for a '69 Charger"

Therefore, it will perform flawlessly for years.

OK, if a bunch of you have heard horror stories about solid rollers on the street, hit me with them. But remember, I...didn't...build...THOSE...engines.

[Ryan]

Curious question.

How did you expect me to answer?

"496 street motor for a '69 Charger"

Therefore, it will perform flawlessly for years.

OK, if a bunch of you have heard horror stories about solid rollers on the street, hit me with them. But remember, I...didn't...build...THOSE...engines.

curious as to how you avoid the issues typically associated with the solid rollers on the street?
Is the Lunati a "softer" ramp rate cam? What lifters are you using?

[heyoldguy]

Issues? You've had issues?

[Budnicks]

Issues? You've had issues?

HeyOldGoy, I figured it out you have a secret weapon to make them last, it's Cody...

[marshallfry01]

What kind of mpg does a build like this give if it's geared right and isn't being driven hard? And how much does a build like this cost?

[heyoldguy]

I would estimate 12-15 mpg, but that hasn't been tested. The BSFC was .39-.44 during the dyno runs so it was very fuel efficient. This engine would cost about $13,500. Each engine is always a little different so cost varies some.

[Budnicks]

I would estimate 12-15 mpg, but that hasn't been tested. The BSFC was .39-.44 during the dyno runs so it was very fuel efficient. This engine would cost about $13,500. Each engine is always a little different so cost varies some.

HeyOldGuy, Jim is that $13,500, damn 641hp streetable 642trq, damn Jim that's not to shabby buddy   , that must include new everything too & some major trick heads & porting, carb to pan, machining, hardware, gaskets etc., warranty ??, dyno time/tuning ??.... 12-15mpg is way better than any of mine get so far, you must have higher gears too, my 68 RR 3800lb 479ci/6bbl 10.5:1 full roller, 727tf, 3.73:1 8-3/4 rear, 28" rear tires, 55mph 3000-3200rpm hwy cruise speeds, with a high stall 175K reworked 11" Mopar trq-converter, gets about nearly 10mpg on 91-oct., when I drive normal & not like a damn wildman...LOL... never checked it on a long drive or freeway driving, just Putin/farten' around, but I live in the sticks in the Sierras {& I didn't build it, for frwy driving or fuel mileage either}, so mileage isn't like it would be on open flat hwy/freeway, flat landers or city folks type driving...LOL... I'm going up & down mountains/hills allot, on & off the gas in turns, "well on allot more than off" usually...

[heyoldguy]

Yeah, well, the cost is going up very soon. The owner of the listed engine can't give me any mpg numbers with his 3.23 gears, because what he does mostly.........is burnouts.

Warranty? Really? All work is high performance, there is no warranty expressed or implied. I have no control over how these engines are treated when they leave the dyno room. Every engine is dyno tested and the filter is cut open and inspected for debris. The customer can't have it if there is anything wrong. The perfect example is the person who over-revved their diesel and thought we were responsible for the bent valves because we ported the head. The truck was to be used for hauling a car trailer around and going to get firewood. It found it's way.......into a truck PULLING contest. He said, "You should have put valve springs on there that made it IMPOSSIBLE for me to over-rev the engine!" He has however, since been apologetic. 

[Cooter]

Hey old guy, you mean you didn't protect the diesel idiot from himself? What kinda diesel over revs just "Hauling firewood"?

[Budnicks]

Warranty? Really? All work is high performance, there is no warranty expressed or implied. I have no control over how these engines are treated when they leave the dyno room. 

I figured you would like that...LOL... happy new year Jim

[heyoldguy]

Oh, and a belated Happy New Year to you bud-warranty-nicks.

[rt green]

happy new year jim. i'm still saving my money for heads.  bruce

[heyoldguy]

happy new year jim. i'm still saving my money for heads.  bruce

Okay Bruce, We'll be around when you're ready.

[Budnicks]

HeyOldGuy, how did the engine work out in the Charger, must be a real shocker going from the 318, to 640+hp 493ci o0n the street, probably gone thru a few sets of tires now too...

[heyoldguy]

It's back in the shop, he wants 700 HP. I asked him what kind of mileage he gets, "I donno, all I do with it is smokey burn outs!" I think he's taking it to the NATS next summer to run in the Mopar Muscle Magazine Dyno Challenge. The 528 Hemi may come too.

[Challenger340]

GREAT Job Jim  

We used to get similar results on the 91 octane 10 sec Brackets Engine Packages we offered back a few years back, usually right around the 660 hp and 640 Ft/Lb Torque mark, all in by 6,000 rpm for low maintenance, they were very popular and we sold lots of them.

The big difference was we opted for the INDY EZ's ootb box with just minor clean-up, Bowl Port, Entry Blend, real VJ, our std "prep for service".
and
a Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft...
which we found kept the Final Costs down substantially for the Customers.....cheaper Solid Cam, Lifters, Springs, etc., and NO Porting Labor, No Bronze Dizzy Gear, etc., versus the more expensive INDY's, which we found the INDY's also offered "expandibility" for later, if they came back and wanted more down the road ?

440 Block w/Studs
4.350 Bore
4.15 Stroke
6.76 Rods
SRP F.T. Slugs
INDY EZ Heads, plunge cut chambers to 80cc, Bowl Port & Gskt Match only, seat prep.
11.25 C.R. Static, 8.0:1 Dynamic C.R. on the 256/266 XTQ Stick for the 2200 elevation guys, which we'd option up to the 264/270 XTQ for the guys at sea level(8.2:1 D.R.)  
440-2 Intake
850 hp 4150 Holley

I'll go dig up a "typical" Dyno Sheet from one of them and post it.


Here's one; 664HP / 643 Ft/Lbs Torque

[Budnicks]

It's back in the shop, he wants 700 HP. I asked him what kind of mileage he gets, "I donno, all I do with it is smokey burn outs!" I think he's taking it to the NATS next summer to run in the Mopar Muscle Magazine Dyno Challenge. The 528 Hemi may come too.

cool stuff, spending more $$$, sorry I haven't been on Dc .com in a while  ... good to see all is going well, I cant wait to see your results, keep us all updated IQ52 

[heyoldguy]

GREAT Job Jim  

We used to get similar results on the 91 octane 10 sec Brackets Engine Packages we offered back a few years back, usually right around the 660 hp and 640 Ft/Lb Torque mark, all in by 6,000 rpm for low maintenance, they were very popular and we sold lots of them.

The big difference was we opted for the INDY EZ's ootb box with just minor clean-up
and
a Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft...
which we found kept the Final Costs down substantially for the Customers.....cheaper Solid Cam, Lifters, Springs, etc., and NO Porting Labor, No Bronze Dizzy Gear, etc., versus the more expensive INDY's, which we found the INDY's also offered "expandibility" for later, if they came back and wanted more down the road ?

440 Block w/Studs
4.350 Bore
4.15 Stroke
6.76 Rods
SRP F.T. Slugs
INDY EZ Heads, plunge cut chambers to 80cc, Bowl Port & Gskt Match only, seat prep.
11.25 C.R. Static, 8.0:1 Dynamic C.R. on the 256/266 XTQ Stick for the 2200 elevation guys, which we'd option up to the 264/270 XTQ for the guys at sea level(8.2:1 D.R.)  
440-2 Intake
850 hp 4150 Holley

I'll go dig up a "typical" Dyno Sheet from one of them and post it.

You are wise to hold to the 8.0:1 dynamic compression ratio on pump gas. You've done very well with OOTB EZ heads as they have never impressed me with their OOTB flows. Their potential is however excellent. We have a pair of our ported EZ heads on the shelf here that flow 350 cfm @ .600" and 370 cfm @ .700". I'm trying to figure out what kind of short block to build for them out of the stuff I have laying around.

[Challenger340]

You are wise to hold to the 8.0:1 dynamic compression ratio on pump gas. You've done very well with OOTB EZ heads as they have never impressed me with their OOTB flows. Their potential is however excellent. We have a pair of our ported EZ heads on the shelf here that flow 350 cfm @ .600" and 370 cfm @ .700". I'm trying to figure out what kind of short block to build for them out of the stuff I have laying around.

Oh, the EZ POTENTIAL is definitely there ! 
Don't wanna date myself...but we played with the EZ forerunner..... the "SR" Head to no end....same as the EZ except for the raised exhaust port.... back when they first came out in the 90's.
Call us stubborn....we got to 849hp / 753 Torque with the SR's on a 540 inch by the late 90's....get this....using 1.5 ratio Crane Gold's on the old  .690"/289 Comp Roller ! That Engine is STILL running !(Rockers have been changed out)
But by then..... we were using our own Machine Cut Chamber Program we'd Polish Out & Blend in 1.5 Hrs(see old photo below)
Same Chamber we apply to the EZ Today, but all we do with them now.... is our Chamber Program, Bowl & Intake Clean-up....a "real" VJ and GONE !

I don't like discussing Flow in public, I have my reasons, maybe we could pm ?

So,
when I say "ootb" EZ Heads...I should correct myself...I allow Marty 6 Hrs to "Prep for Service"(which he beats)
Which includes;
Dis-Assemble, Check Guides, Machine Cut Chambers, Clean up the Bowls & Intake entries, Polish Blend the Chambers from the Machine Cut, apply the VJ(machine), Cut for seals, Lap, Check & Set Spring pressures, Wash & re-assemble.
Although.....what I MEAN By ootb is we are not really "Changing" anything port-wise, NO Divergent Angle Changes, NO real Volume Changes.....just "Fixing" and making them "right" as they SHOULD BE from INDY, but never are !
Anyways,
here's that Dyno Sheet....this one was 664HP and 643 Ft/Lbs Torque, XTQ Flat Tappet, very easy on parts.
and,
the basic EZ Head "Prep for Service" we apply.

[Cooter]

Issues? You've had issues?

Still wondering how that solid roller is gonna live without eating lifters. Please do tell.

[Challenger340]

.

[heyoldguy]

Issues? You've had issues?

Still wondering how that solid roller is gonna live without eating lifters. Please do tell.

What if we were driving my Charger down the road next to a railroad track and there was a freight car upside down crosswise on the tracks and there were 10,000 chipmunks all over it?

[Ghoste]

Would the chipmunks be rabid?

[heyoldguy]

Would the chipmunks be rabid?

Are they using solid rollers?

[cdr]

Would the chipmunks be rabid?

Are they using solid rollers?

as a matter of fact they are.  

& so will I

[Budnicks]

Would the chipmunks be rabid?

Are they using solid rollers?

if the chipmunks have any cahonies they will...LOL... sorry I couldn't resist guys

[Cooter]

Again......still wondering (since you obviously are some kind of wizard when it comes to cast crank 450 hp 440's)
About some crazy voodoo, secret ninja shit, you seem to have that the high dollar guys running 6's with street cars and solid roller cams that eat lifters. .You seem to have no problem boasting engine dyno numbers here, yet we can't get an answer on solid rollers living on the street...Again professor, please enlighten us....

[Budnicks]

Again......still wondering (since you obviously are some kind of wizard when it comes to cast crank 450 hp 440's)
About some crazy voodoo, secret ninja shit, you seem to have that the high dollar gyys running 6's with street cars ans solid roller cams that eat lifters. ..again, please enlighten us....

OK Cooter I'll bite, what's your expertise here, what's your case & why you have solid roller lifters getting eaten up... I've run them for 10k plus mile several times, the Crane Cam custom grind from 1997 & Crane roller lifters & Crane Super Gold Rockers in one of my current 383/479ci with out any breakage, I did break a few adjusters a while back, but that's it, there was a bad run of them about 8 or so years ago, unfortunately mine were some of that bad batch run... But I'm not a Mopar purist, I don't need the stuff to last for decades {but it has lasted over a decade now} & most my cars aren't just built with a run of the mill engines either, with basic mechanical or hydraulic lifter camshafts either, I had the lifter bores bushed & aligned too, may not be necessary on all engines... but with engine that have had high miles put on them It's probably a great idea to do it... it comes with the territory big power, how much power do you want ?? & how much you have to spend... I personally don't mind tearing into them from time to time, it's part of what comes with building HP & any big power engine combo, I enjoy it actually, because that gets the most power out of it, a solid or hydr. roller is that animal, I'm willing to sacrifice a little longevity for power, if your not willing to work on the stuff then run a Hydr. Lifter flat tappet camshaft... I'm sure HeyOldGuy will respond in time, he's probably way too busy building some hi-HP wedge or hemi or getting some heads ported, professionally build some engines & getting ready for the Dyno Competition...

[Cooter]

Again......still wondering (since you obviously are some kind of wizard when it comes to cast crank 450 hp 440's)
About some crazy voodoo, secret ninja shit, you seem to have that the high dollar gyys running 6's with street cars ans solid roller cams that eat lifters. ..again, please enlighten us....

OK Cooter I'll bite, what's your expertise here, what's your case & why you have solid roller lifters getting eaten up... I've run them for 10k plus mile several times, the Crane Cam custom grind from 1997 & Crane roller lifters & Crane Super Gold Rockers in one of my current 383/479ci with out any breakage, I did break a few adjusters a while back, but that's it, there was a bad run of them about 8 or so years ago, unfortunately mine were some of that bad batch run... But I'm not a Mopar purist, I don't need the stuff to last for decades {but it has lasted over a decade now} & most my cars aren't just built with a run of the mill engines either, with basic mechanical or hydraulic lifter camshafts either... I don't mind tearing into them from time to time, it's part of what comes with building HP & an engine combo, I enjoy it casually, because that gets the most power out of it, a solid or hydr. roller is that animal, I'm willing to sacrifice a little longevity for power, if your not willing to work on the stuff then run a Hydr. Lifter flat tappet camshaft... I'm sure HeyOldGuy will respond in time, he's probably way too busy building some hi-HP wedge or hemi or getting some heads ported, professionally build some engines & getting ready for the Dyno Competition...

Look Budnicks, I realize this cat might be your pal/buddy/mentor whatever, but I simply asked a question.
I got some bullshit reply, so he got asked again. My experience???
Well, I'm contemplating trying to run a solid roller on the street, as are many of my customers. I have seen too many solid roller lifters come apart due to heavy loads from high spring pressures. Mainly, this is in my Chevy and Ford customers.
I have stayed away from recomending them due to the failures I see. I realize some things are proprietary, but I also realize that you can't make a remark about how well YOU can make an engine perform an NOT have someone ask you to explain, prove, disprove, etc.
 I was under the same premonition as the first guy to ask about solid rollers and living on the street, but I see he got bout the same response a while back. We have enough assholes building Mopar engines (INDY) we don't need anymore. One would think that a business built entirely on disposable income, one would be a little more cordial. I guess rich douches and their douchyness must be contagious??
I give respect where its due. Sure, if given the high dollar flow benches, boring plates, etc. One can make some serious power with a turd.
Just don't expect me to not ask questions about a solid roller on the street.
Sure, I'm not in the mags building engines for some rag, but I know how to treat people when they simply ask a question about head porting I did for a buddy with a 768 hp small block Chevy.

[heyoldguy]

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive having been married twice. There is a difference between a question and an accusation. Why did you do that?......and.... WHY DID YOU DO THAT!

Because of our previous interactions Cooter, I hear your questions as I did from the ex-wives. What I hear is. "Nobody else can do that, how can you do it!" I feel like I'm over on Moparts.

My Dad once told me, "Jimmy, you have to be smarter than the tools you are working with." That was right after I had hit myself on the head with a 4lb hammer. I can't answer why others have issues with solid rollers, "I...didn't...build...THOSE...engines." But maybe it is because you have to be smarter than your lifters, camshaft and valve springs.

I've spent thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars learning what I know. Some of it I give away, some of it I don't.

[Cooter]

No problem heyoldguy. I will just seek this answer from someone who is willing to answer.
Thank you for your very precious time and see ya in the funny papers.

[Challenger340]

What KIND of Solid Roller Cam Profiles are we talking about on the "street" here ?....more specifically, What Spring Rates are we talking about that are recommended..... for the "type" of Roller Cam being run on the street ?...and what over the nose loads.....or seat /installed pressures ?
What I am getting at is not ALL Solid Roller Cams are the same obviously ?

I am sure everybody here has probably read David Vizards book....lets leave him, or anything in his Book out of it for now, it ain't WHAT he tells ya...it's what he DOES NOT !

IMO,
In my experience...it ain't the Rollers themselves....ISKIES etc., and any "oil through" design for the trunion is great....it's the Spring Rate on the higher stuff that goes away....then the slew rate sets up Harmonics, ramping..yada, yada....dumb owners who don't Thermally Stabilize, etc. It's got nuthin to do with WHO builds it....it has to do with who DRIVES IT.

[Cooter]

That's kinda what I and others want to know Challenger340. We are lookin for ways to keep one alive on the street for more than 2 seasons and without a rich uncle. Lemme be clear, if this is proprietary, I don't even wanna hear from you guys and your precious time.
This is NOT rocket science afterall, its the cam companies that have the voodoo stuff and its not like im asking for the metal composition.. I'm just lookin for input from some that have richer customers than I. That can afford to try one of everything out there.
If your interested in boasting about how great thou art at making power, please go elsewhere. If you have a genuine interest in helping fellow MOPAR roller cam folks, then by all means.

I have a hard time with a hydraulic roller lifter that lives when it would appear to most that the hydraulic wieghs more and therefore, would theoretically require more spring pressure. The soild roller weighs less and yet won't live.
Hadda chevy cust. With a 650 hp LS 427 eat a solid roller lifter (roller/trunion wore out I guess turned sideways.
It had a name brand cam and lifters in the .680 lift range. Cust. Picked a 'matched' kit.
Agreed, it ain't who builds it its who drives it. But then again, that's why 'we' want solid rollers for maximum power and to be able to run it hard like with a hydraulic roller.

[Challenger340]

Hey Cooter
This is a Car Site dedicated to "people helping people".... as it should be... as it always "used" to be anyways, IMO ??
So,
I'll try my best to answer from my "limited" experience to give an opinion here, on how to use a RACE Type Mechanical Roller Cams, being used on the street ?

I don't think it's practical... so I don't recommend it, just my preference.

I don't think even the Cam Companies have any particular VooDoo either ?.... there simply is no "Ancient Chinese ....TOP Secret ... 007 shit".. out there, certainly NOT from most I've talked to ? and certainly NOT from the Phone Tech Dorks who are no smarter than us...just spewing programmed responses ?
But probably one of the best still around would be to call Chase Knight at Crane Cams....the old fart is back, out of retirement and working there again, but lally-gagging around as usual LOL !

Anyways, FAR smarter guys out there than me, just my take here... No Wars wanted !

It is NOT the Lifters that Fail...at least not until the required Valve Springs GO AWAY... then all bets are off, and "anything" fails of so-called "mysterious" origins ?(check the Springs after), one can even destroy the ISKY Red Zone Lifters.
Anyways, IMO
As Roller Ramp Rates move up....so do the Valve Spring REQUIREMENTS(Past 500-550# Spring Rates) to deal with Higher & Higher Lifts attained, at Faster and Faster Ramp rates typically targeting more & more RPM's.
Can't get into it here....but I think Good Research for anybody contemplating a RACE type Solid Roller Cam on the Street, would also be to Google ValveSpring Slew Rates & Harmonics, and the HEAT sink Vrs Cycles or rpm of the carbon steel, and the avoidance of such, by keeping Spring Pressures well above their range, with adequate cooling(oil flow over them)

About the only way that I know of, to run a "Race" type Mechanical Roller Cam profile on the Street, for even limited durations of a few thousand miles, stuff starting to require well above 500# "Rates"...550# up to 740# Rates..... which is really what I "think" we are talking about here..... because THOSE are the Solid Roller Cams that are really worth the extra Benefit to power vrs Money.... is to do the following..... and even then here, be forewarned .....IMO, it is a limited time duration(miles) to expensive maintenance that should be performed occasionally, even with good Oil Flow over them for cooling in operation, and Oil Through Design Roller lifters.

Always Thermally Stabilize the Springs.... NO COLD RPM whatsoever !!
1.)  Start the Engine...let it bump & fart around at idle... No rpm....until the temperature gauge comes right up to operating, 20 minutes ??
2.) Shut the Engine OFF ! another 20 minutes ??
That's right... shut it off....because...just because the "temp" gauge say warm...the Valve Springs are dead-nuts COLD inside still.... and the only way they get Heat is to conduct it off the Head at the bottom where they sit... and it takes "time" for the Heat to conduct UP into the Spring.... PERIOD !
(also a good time to Pull the V/Covers and check the Valve Lash in this 20 minute period)
3.) Restart the Engine.... wait....  back up to operating 3-5 minutes no rpm, and then..... away you go !
From then on after first start up of the Day.... and within normal shut-off but still warm timeframes....the Engine can be restarted with just #3 point above.
Even with the above, extended spring cycling for Street or Highway Driving requires adequate Oil Flow over the Springs for cooling.... which may prove problematic with a BB Mopar ??

In my experience anyways, the above is simply not practical, over time, for an actual "Street" type driven Car on a daily basis.
And even then,
an extremely good idea would be to have, OWN and keep on hand,  a Rocker Shaft Mounted V/Spring Gauge, that a Guy could periodically remove the Rocker Arms and check Valve Spring Seat Pressures just to keep an eye on things.

I am NOT afraid of the ACTUAL Valve Spring Pressure ! certainly NOT !
Some of the Drag Competition Wedges and HEMI's we do here get 350-375# seat pressure, and run well above 700-800# over the Nose, 800-1,000hp of which I have posted the Dyno Sheets here in the past.
What I am AFRAID of....
is THOSE Valve Spring Pressures STAYING present.... and being MAINTAINED over time.... in a "Street" driven Environment by the "Average" Street Engine Customer ??
Lord knows it is tough enough getting the Drag Guys to follow Thermal Stabilization procedures....and I get the Engines back every 250-350 runs anyways for teardown & inspection.

just my take....no wars wanted.
Bob.

[Ghoste]

Good info Bob. 

[Cooter]

Thank You Bob for taking the time to attempt to explain why solid "race only it seems" rollers just won't live in a street environment.
You are correct about high maintenance and no one performing it in street cars.

[tan top]

   lot of good info in this thread  ,  some of the stuff I never knew about  , thanks for sharing   

[firefighter3931]

Always Thermally Stabilize the Springs.... NO COLD RPM whatsoever !!

This is the best advice you're ever going to hear ! If you have your heart set on a solid roller cam you need to pay special attention. 

I run a moderately agressive solid roller with 250 seat/600 open pressures and use the best springs and lifters money can buy. The springs are Pac's ($600) and the lifters are Isky EZ-roll's ($1200) with the solid bushing. Allways warm the engine to 170* before even dropping it into gear ! 

Street roller grinds are not as agressive and consequently don't require the same level of parts but the warm-up cycle is just as critical....if relaibility & longevity are the end goal. 



Ron

[Budnicks]

Hey Cooter
This is a Car Site dedicated to "people helping people".... as it should be... as it always "used" to be anyways, IMO ??
So,
I'll try my best to answer from my "limited" experience to give an opinion here, on how to use a RACE Type Mechanical Roller Cams, being used on the street ?

I don't think it's practical... so I don't recommend it, just my preference.

I don't think even the Cam Companies have any particular VooDoo either ?.... there simply is no "Ancient Chinese ....TOP Secret ... 007 shit".. out there, certainly NOT from most I've talked to ? and certainly NOT from the Phone Tech Dorks who are no smarter than us...just spewing programmed responses ?
But probably one of the best still around would be to call Chase Knight at Crane Cams....the old fart is back, out of retirement and working there again, but lally-gagging around as usual LOL !

Anyways, FAR smarter guys out there than me, just my take here... No Wars wanted !

It is NOT the Lifters that Fail...at least not until the required Valve Springs GO AWAY... then all bets are off, and "anything" fails of so-called "mysterious" origins ?(check the Springs after), one can even destroy the ISKY Red Zone Lifters.
Anyways, IMO
As Roller Ramp Rates move up....so do the Valve Spring REQUIREMENTS(Past 500-550# Spring Rates) to deal with Higher & Higher Lifts attained, at Faster and Faster Ramp rates typically targeting more & more RPM's.
Can't get into it here....but I think Good Research for anybody contemplating a RACE type Solid Roller Cam on the Street, would also be to Google ValveSpring Slew Rates & Harmonics, and the HEAT sink Vrs Cycles or rpm of the carbon steel, and the avoidance of such, by keeping Spring Pressures well above their range, with adequate cooling(oil flow over them)

About the only way that I know of, to run a "Race" type Mechanical Roller Cam profile on the Street, for even limited durations of a few thousand miles, stuff starting to require well above 500# "Rates"...550# up to 740# Rates..... which is really what I "think" we are talking about here..... because THOSE are the Solid Roller Cams that are really worth the extra Benefit to power vrs Money.... is to do the following..... and even then here, be forewarned .....IMO, it is a limited time duration(miles) to expensive maintenance that should be performed occasionally, even with good Oil Flow over them for cooling in operation, and Oil Through Design Roller lifters.

Always Thermally Stabilize the Springs.... NO COLD RPM whatsoever !!
1.)  Start the Engine...let it bump & fart around at idle... No rpm....until the temperature gauge comes right up to operating, 20 minutes ??
2.) Shut the Engine OFF ! another 20 minutes ??
That's right... shut it off....because...just because the "temp" gauge say warm...the Valve Springs are dead-nuts COLD inside still.... and the only way they get Heat is to conduct it off the Head at the bottom where they sit... and it takes "time" for the Heat to conduct UP into the Spring.... PERIOD !
(also a good time to Pull the V/Covers and check the Valve Lash in this 20 minute period)
3.) Restart the Engine.... wait....  back up to operating 3-5 minutes no rpm, and then..... away you go !
From then on after first start up of the Day.... and within normal shut-off but still warm timeframes....the Engine can be restarted with just #3 point above.
Even with the above, extended spring cycling for Street or Highway Driving requires adequate Oil Flow over the Springs for cooling.... which may prove problematic with a BB Mopar ??

In my experience anyways, the above is simply not practical, over time, for an actual "Street" type driven Car on a daily basis.
And even then,
an extremely good idea would be to have, OWN and keep on hand,  a Rocker Shaft Mounted V/Spring Gauge, that a Guy could periodically remove the Rocker Arms and check Valve Spring Seat Pressures just to keep an eye on things.

I am NOT afraid of the ACTUAL Valve Spring Pressure ! certainly NOT !
Some of the Drag Competition Wedges and HEMI's we do here get 350-375# seat pressure, and run well above 700-800# over the Nose, 800-1,000hp of which I have posted the Dyno Sheets here in the past.
What I am AFRAID of....
is THOSE Valve Spring Pressures STAYING present.... and being MAINTAINED over time.... in a "Street" driven Environment by the "Average" Street Engine Customer ??
Lord knows it is tough enough getting the Drag Guys to follow Thermal Stabilization procedures....and I get the Engines back every 250-350 runs anyways for teardown & inspection.

just my take....no wars wanted.
Bob.

very well said, thank you

[Budnicks]

Thank You Bob for taking the time to attempt to explain why solid "race only it seems" rollers just won't live in a street environment.
You are correct about high maintenance and no one performing it in street cars.

I wouldn't say no one   , just the majority of people, that spend a ton of money on there valve train or engine combos, are trying to make big power, with the wrong parts for "their" intended usage {or inpatients} & then also expect it to live forever, just because they spent a ton of money or put together a bunch of mix matched pieces   & then there's those also that never want to maintain it {after spending a bunch of $$$} or checking anything or warming stuff up properly or not built with the right valve-train combo in the 1st place, then stuff goes bad & they think the parts are junk, when it's usually the users fault, wrong warm-up procedures &/or wrong parts, wrong set-ups, wrong or inferior machine work, inexperienced builder etc., like Bob/Challenger340 said so patiently & elegantly, trying to explain why... I always laugh when you here some guy fire up his big $$$ engine & rap the throttle a few times, free-winding a cold engine, way before it's ever warm enough, then they break valve springs, car pops bad on the big end, because of the bad or broken valve springs or valve-train pieces & then just bitch that the parts are junk... even at the track you see it allot... it's the proper knowledge that's lacking usually, not the parts or quality IMHFO anyway, You have a nice day now... Like my signature says "fill your library, before you fill your garage" {a great Mike Joy Quote} knowledge is the key issue here

[Budnicks]

Again......still wondering (since you obviously are some kind of wizard when it comes to cast crank 450 hp 440's)
About some crazy voodoo, secret ninja shit, you seem to have that the high dollar gyys running 6's with street cars ans solid roller cams that eat lifters. ..again, please enlighten us....

OK Cooter I'll bite, what's your expertise here, what's your case & why you have solid roller lifters getting eaten up... I've run them for 10k plus mile several times, the Crane Cam custom grind from 1997 & Crane roller lifters & Crane Super Gold Rockers in one of my current 383/479ci with out any breakage, I did break a few adjusters a while back, but that's it, there was a bad run of them about 8 or so years ago, unfortunately mine were some of that bad batch run... But I'm not a Mopar purist, I don't need the stuff to last for decades {but it has lasted over a decade now} & most my cars aren't just built with a run of the mill engines either, with basic mechanical or hydraulic lifter camshafts either... I don't mind tearing into them from time to time, it's part of what comes with building HP & an engine combo, I enjoy it casually, because that gets the most power out of it, a solid or hydr. roller is that animal, I'm willing to sacrifice a little longevity for power, if your not willing to work on the stuff then run a Hydr. Lifter flat tappet camshaft... I'm sure HeyOldGuy will respond in time, he's probably way too busy building some hi-HP wedge or hemi or getting some heads ported, professionally build some engines & getting ready for the Dyno Competition...

Look Budnicks, I realize this cat might be your pal/buddy/mentor whatever, but I simply asked a question.
I got some bullshit reply, so he got asked again. My experience???
Well, I'm contemplating trying to run a solid roller on the street, as are many of my customers. I have seen too many solid roller lifters come apart due to heavy loads from high spring pressures. Mainly, this is in my Chevy and Ford customers.
I have stayed away from recomending them due to the failures I see. I realize some things are proprietary, but I also realize that you can't make a remark about how well YOU can make an engine perform an NOT have someone ask you to explain, prove, disprove, etc.
 I was under the same premonition as the first guy to ask about solid rollers and living on the street, but I see he got bout the same response a while back. We have enough assholes building Mopar engines (INDY) we don't need anymore. One would think that a business built entirely on disposable income, one would be a little more cordial. I guess rich douches and their douchyness must be contagious??
I give respect where its due. Sure, if given the high dollar flow benches, boring plates, etc. One can make some serious power with a turd.
Just don't expect me to not ask questions about a solid roller on the street.
Sure, I'm not in the mags building engines for some rag, but I know how to treat people when they simply ask a question about head porting I did for a buddy with a 768 hp small block Chevy.

your being pretty un-friendly to HeyOldMan & me for that matter, it seems like to me, you don't know me & your coming off the same way to me, I was only trying to give you some information, I'm pot a "know it all" just an enthusiast, like most members on here, maybe not part of the regular DC.com clique'/group, but I have learned allot by asking people nicely {yes he's my friend} & I don't know you very well, just your persona here on many, many threads here...Just maybe it's just how your coming off arrogant or your questions worded badly, or maybe even the way you ask a question or just friendly sarcasm possibly, I don't really know why, but it comes off bad sometimes thou... But maybe if you asked nicer, be more friendly in your tone... a little sugar goes allot father, than a little vial vinegar, when it come to getting help or information from someone... Sometime people just don't come here as often or answer all the questions asked of them, some don't answer any... I'm sorry Cooter I'm not trying to single you out, but I see this type attitude on here, allot it seem lately, not sure why...  

[Cooter]

your being pretty un-friendly to HeyOldMan & me for that matter, it seems like to me, you don't know me & your coming off the same way to me, I was only trying to give you some information, I'm pot a "know it all" just an enthusiast, like most members on here, maybe not part of the regular DC.com clique'/group, but I have learned allot by asking people nicely {yes he's my friend} & I don't know you very well, just your persona here on many, many threads here...Just maybe it's just how your coming off arrogant or your questions worded badly, or maybe even the way you ask a question or just friendly sarcasm possibly, I don't really know why, but it comes off bad sometimes thou... But maybe if you asked nicer, be more friendly in your tone... a little sugar goes allot father, than a little vial vinegar, when it come to getting help or information from someone... Sometime people just don't come here as often or answer all the questions asked of them, some don't answer any... I'm sorry Cooter I'm not trying to single you out, but I see this type attitude on here, allot it seem lately, not sure why...  

Unfriendly you say?
Who came into this thread between me and this old guy and began with "ok Cooter, I'll bite"? I don't respond well to sarcasm, but Am willing to "try".
Contrary to what YOU may believe, I have PM's from lots of folks giving me the thumbs up for what I say/have said, but are not willing to be the ass that calls out an somebody on the board. So be it. I've been one before, I'll be one again.
Firefighter Ron has no problem answering my qiestions, neither does Bob [Challenger340]. They don't seem to think their experience is proprietary, and I respect them for that. Again, never hadda problem with these guys.
Further, until then, I had no beef with you at all.(It seemed to me you are defending what this douche did by asking me to "Be a little nicer??" WTF? I didn't see you ask heyoldguy if he could try to post replies a little nicer?) Just an ass trying to project his issues with his Ex wives (Which I can see why now, and should be left at the shrinks office), onto a thread where I simply asked a question. I might add that there WERE TWO people [2] that asked same question and got the same Remark. Was the other guy "Disliked" as much as I seem to be?? The other guy decided he was being a douche and figured it wasn't worth calling him out over it. Well, where I come from, you say something like that, and you WILL be called out on it. Period.
If you have a problem that goes as far as to want to solve it physically, then "we" [Yes, round here I'm well liked. Contrary to here. and will handle it when disrespected. period].
Bottom line is this, I'm NOT a baker. I don't sugar coat things, and I WAS being NICE about it after he remarked to the other poster who asked the same F'ing question. If I was gonna get nasty bout it, the thread would be locked by now. I have about a little more respect for YOU than that. I honestly believe you don't understand what happened here, this is why I'm taking the time to explain it to you as you seem to be one of only a few, according to my PM's.

Look, If I came on here and boasted about doing something NOBODY else can do like build a Hemi car for Under a $1000.00, then I fully expect somebody to say "ok, D-bag, how'd YOU do it when history says otherwise?"
Far be it for me to say some douchebag remark like "That's because "I didn't build it"...Your being a pompus ass by remarking the way he did. Period.
You wanna get on a board where SHARING info/experiences/etc. Is kinda "expected" and act like your some kinda god, then go back F'ing Moparts where you will be welcomed with open arms. Here, I like to think it's about sharing. Not about who can post unheard of dyno/engine building results and when asked how, they respond as this guy did. It's not like I'm asking him how he ports heads, Or how close he sets Ring clearances, or how close he machines parts. That stuff is his alone. ok, fine. But when asked how you get a solid roller to live on the street without the common issues, and you reply with "Issues? you've had issues?"
F you guy. Plain and simple. Sad reality is, this guy thinks someone cannot find the info regarding this claim. Today, you can find out anything. Bob answered the best. It cannot be done. You might do it for a little while, but not as it came off in the post and why the other guy and myself asked the question. NOBODY is gonna drive a 700 HP Solid roller cammed engine for very long on the street. Just like "Street outlaws" claiming those cars are "Street cars". I just wanted to know if he'd admit it after charging that guy $13,500.00 [I DOUBT that customer even knows it "might" have problems later on if driven regularly]. Of course, he gave a BS reply. More of these type call outs WILL come if the seemingly "impossible" is done and boasted about. After all, I believe it's "Dino" that has this in his Signature..."Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence"
If there's anything else you do not understand about this, feel free to PM me, or see me in chat and we'll talk it through.

[Budnicks]

your being pretty un-friendly to HeyOldMan & me for that matter, it seems like to me, you don't know me & your coming off the same way to me, I was only trying to give you some information, I'm pot a "know it all" just an enthusiast, like most members on here, maybe not part of the regular DC.com clique'/group, but I have learned allot by asking people nicely {yes he's my friend} & I don't know you very well, just your persona here on many, many threads here...Just maybe it's just how your coming off arrogant or your questions worded badly, or maybe even the way you ask a question or just friendly sarcasm possibly, I don't really know why, but it comes off bad sometimes thou... But maybe if you asked nicer, be more friendly in your tone... a little sugar goes allot father, than a little vial vinegar, when it come to getting help or information from someone... Sometime people just don't come here as often or answer all the questions asked of them, some don't answer any... I'm sorry Cooter I'm not trying to single you out, but I see this type attitude on here, allot it seem lately, not sure why...  

Unfriendly you say?
Who came into this thread between me and this old guy and began with "ok Cooter, I'll bite"? I don't respond well to sarcasm, but Am willing to "try".
Contrary to what YOU may believe, I have PM's from lots of folks giving me the thumbs up for what I say/have said, but are not willing to be the ass that calls out an somebody on the board. So be it. I've been one before, I'll be one again.
Firefighter Ron has no problem answering my qiestions, neither does Bob [Challenger340]. They don't seem to think their experience is proprietary, and I respect them for that. Again, never hadda problem with these guys.
Further, until then, I had no beef with you at all.(It seemed to me you are defending what this douche did by asking me to "Be a little nicer??" WTF? I didn't see you ask heyoldguy if he could try to post replies a little nicer?) Just an ass trying to project his issues with his Ex wives (Which I can see why now, and should be left at the shrinks office), onto a thread where I simply asked a question. I might add that there WERE TWO people [2] that asked same question and got the same Remark. Was the other guy "Disliked" as much as I seem to be?? The other guy decided he was being a douche and figured it wasn't worth calling him out over it. Well, where I come from, you say something like that, and you WILL be called out on it. Period.
If you have a problem that goes as far as to want to solve it physically, then "we" [Yes, round here I'm well liked. Contrary to here. and will handle it when disrespected. period].
Bottom line is this, I'm NOT a baker. I don't sugar coat things, and I WAS being NICE about it after he remarked to the other poster who asked the same F'ing question. If I was gonna get nasty bout it, the thread would be locked by now. I have about a little more respect for YOU than that. I honestly believe you don't understand what happened here, this is why I'm taking the time to explain it to you as you seem to be one of only a few, according to my PM's.

Look, If I came on here and boasted about doing something NOBODY else can do like build a Hemi car for Under a $1000.00, then I fully expect somebody to say "ok, D-bag, how'd YOU do it when history says otherwise?"
Far be it for me to say some douchebag remark like "That's because "I didn't build it"...Your being a pompus ass by remarking the way he did. Period.
You wanna get on a board where SHARING info/experiences/etc. Is kinda "expected" and act like your some kinda god, then go back F'ing Moparts where you will be welcomed with open arms. Here, I like to think it's about sharing. Not about who can post unheard of dyno/engine building results and when asked how, they respond as this guy did. It's not like I'm asking him how he ports heads, Or how close he sets Ring clearances, or how close he machines parts. That stuff is his alone. ok, fine. But when asked how you get a solid roller to live on the street without the common issues, and you reply with "Issues? you've had issues?"
F you guy. Plain and simple. Sad reality is, this guy thinks someone cannot find the info regarding this claim. Today, you can find out anything. Bob answered the best. It cannot be done. You might do it for a little while, but not as it came off in the post and why the other guy and myself asked the question. NOBODY is gonna drive a 700 HP Solid roller cammed engine for very long on the street. Just like "Street outlaws" claiming those cars are "Street cars". I just wanted to know if he'd admit it after charging that guy $13,500.00 [I DOUBT that customer even knows it "might" have problems later on if driven regularly]. Of course, he gave a BS reply. More of these type call outs WILL come if the seemingly "impossible" is done and boasted about. After all, I believe it's "Dino" that has this in his Signature..."Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence"
If there's anything else you do not understand about this, feel free to PM me, or see me in chat and we'll talk it through.

wow point taken...   I rest my case

[morepower]

how much HP is a solid roller worth over a solid flat tappet? the build matches mine except for that and I didn't do any addl porting on the eddy heads just a lil polishing on the runners. When I built mine I copied a mopar action build they got 593HP with 8.5:1 compression, I am running 10.5:1. I am hoping to be over 600HP

[Challenger340]

how much HP is a solid roller worth over a solid flat tappet? the build matches mine except for that and I didn't do any addl porting on the eddy heads just a lil polishing on the runners. When I built mine I copied a mopar action build they got 593HP with 8.5:1 compression, I am running 10.5:1. I am hoping to be over 600HP

It depends STRICTLY on the Cylinder Heads and combination already present, in a given Engine.

With Un-ported Eddy's on a 493.... I do not suspect a Roller would be more than 20-30 hp "apples to apples" versus a Solid Flat Tappet of the same duration @ .050
Hardly worth the thousands of $$ to upgrade to the Roller ?
Cam, Lifters, Valve Springs, Retainers, Locks, Bronze Dizzy Gear, Cam Thrust Control, etc., etc ?

If you are contemplating a Roller.... just say'in... you might want to contact the OP about porting your Eddy's as well ?