Tell me again why I'm supposed to like electric cars

[1969chargerrtse]

   I hear ya.  Interesting stuff.

[1969chargerrtse]

Okay, I'm blind.

And you can't read.  

Or don't care to read what other people write when the opinion differs from your own, either way.

Nope not true.  If you had to pick one thing all the magazines and test centers have said about the all electric generator backed up volt, it would be it's an amazing game changer.  And what did you say?  " I just don't see it as the game changer that many are making it out to be. "  

Come on?    That's crazy talk.  Like it or not it's a game changer, that's just commen sense.

[bull]

On a slight tangent... I've been doing some reading into water/methanol injection and on board hydrogen generation (not hydrogen powered - just assisted) using water. The scientists working on the research are complaining that the EPA (and US govt in general) are blocking, stonewalling, fining, and shutting down the companies involved. The argument is that the govt simply hasn't figured out how to tax it. I guess now when you come up with a solution to the world's energy problems you also need to submit a detailed plan for every level of government to get their piece.

Troy

What?! Government can't just let gas-saving, green technology develop without grabbing money from it? That is so strange. If they had half a brain they would just drop the gas tax and add a flat tax (or some such) on licensing or registration. But then that would conflict with their sworn duty to get in the way of progress.

[1969chargerrtse]

I hate to do this Troy because for a minute there it looked like we were getting along...... but

" Prius *has* been out for 10 years and there still isn't a solution to the battery problem or the cost problem so I felt it was fair game."

That just isn't true. Better cheaper batteries are out. Go on eBay and see some others, other companies have created also. The price is down, and better batteries have been designed and there will be even better things to come. That's how it works.
That's the cool thing about the Volt, it's the beginning to great things ahead but few see that here and that's O.K because the rest of the world does.
Different cars are suited for different reasons.  What I love about Hybrids is how you sit in hot idle traffic for hours AND THE ENGINE IS OFF.

I still think Ghost started this thread to stir the pot. Winter boredom?  

[lisiecki1]

Okay, I'm blind.

And you can't read.  

Or don't care to read what other people write when the opinion differs from your own, either way.

Nope not true.  If you had to pick one thing all the magazines and test centers have said about the all electric generator backed up volt, it would be it's an amazing game changer.  And what did you say?  " I just don't see it as the game changer that many are making it out to be. "  

Come on?    That's crazy talk.  Like it or not it's a game changer, that's just commen sense.

Once again.  

I'm wrong because my opinion differs from these other people?  You selected one sentence from my post that is blatantly my own opinion and decided to pick it apart.

Why didn't you pick the sentence about how certain municipalities are already working on how to tax the electric vehicles?

I don't give a flying f**k what kind of mileage it gets, if they tax the ever loving shit out of it there is no real monetary savings in having it which is why I don't see it as a game changer.  Well, it'll change who the government gets my money from, so I guess I can concede that it will change some sort of game.

Tell me:  What's the point of gas going down to 75 cents a gallon if my electricity (hypothetically) goes up to 40 cents a KwH?

Yes, it is exciting, new technology that has the possibility to lead to great things.  Money saving won't be one of them.  This is what common sense is telling me.

[A383Wing]

We have actually serviced a number of "Hybrid" vehicles at our shop...mainly just maintenance service for the "gas" side of the car-truck......

We have been asking the owners about the car....mainly about gas mileage and other points....most all have said it don't get any better gas mileage than the "other" vehicle they traded in for it....and now there is a monthly payment on top of it....most were disappointed in the car that has been so hyped up by the media and dealers

nothing is gonna make me want to buy one in what I have left in my life on this rock...the savings ain't there for me to warrant it.

[1969chargerrtse]

Interesting points, time will tell I guess?  I'd love to buy a Volt but can't afford one right now.  Interesting about servicing the gas side of the Hybrid.  I would think they are service free for the first 100K.  Also I don't understand how it could not be a gas savings in city use or stuck in traffic because you're not burning fuel?  I think if you went to a green site the owners would have better things to say.  They are making them and they are selling them.  That's not media, that's peoples word of mouth.  There are more Hybrids than ever being offered, odd that people don't like them?  The demand seems to be there.

[1969chargerrtse]

Okay, I'm blind.

And you can't read.  

Or don't care to read what other people write when the opinion differs from your own, either way.

Nope not true.  If you had to pick one thing all the magazines and test centers have said about the all electric generator backed up volt, it would be it's an amazing game changer.  And what did you say?  " I just don't see it as the game changer that many are making it out to be. "  

Come on?    That's crazy talk.  Like it or not it's a game changer, that's just commen sense.

Once again.  

I'm wrong because my opinion differs from these other people?  You selected one sentence from my post that is blatantly my own opinion and decided to pick it apart.

Why didn't you pick the sentence about how certain municipalities are already working on how to tax the electric vehicles?

I don't give a flying f**k what kind of mileage it gets, if they tax the ever loving shit out of it there is no real monetary savings in having it which is why I don't see it as a game changer.  Well, it'll change who the government gets my money from, so I guess I can concede that it will change some sort of game.

Tell me:  What's the point of gas going down to 75 cents a gallon if my electricity (hypothetically) goes up to 40 cents a KwH?

Yes, it is exciting, new technology that has the possibility to lead to great things. Money saving won't be one of them. This is what common sense is telling me.

" Why didn't you pick the sentence about how certain municipalities are already working on how to tax the electric vehicles? "
Because that's common sense again.  If your driving a car on roads and not paying a gas tax because your car is electric, then you need to pay some sort of electric tax to drive on the same roads the gas people are. 

[bull]

Interesting points, time will tell I guess?  I'd love to buy a Volt but can't afford one right now.  Interesting about servicing the gas side of the Hybrid.  I would think they are service free for the first 100K.  Also I don't understand how it could not be a gas savings in city use or stuck in traffic because you're not burning fuel?  I think if you went to a green site the owners would have better things to say.  They are making them and they are selling them.  That's not media, that's peoples word of mouth.  There are more Hybrids than ever being offered, odd that people don't like them?  The demand seems to be there.

People don't just putter around in the city though. Many, dare I say most, people who work in the city live in the burbs and spend a good share of their commute doing 65 mph on the freeways. I can't count how many Priuses I've seen doing upwards of 70 mph around Portland, and they aren't getting very good mpg at 70 mph.

And Bryan was talking to owners at the dealership, which is word of mouth, not the media. However, I don't know of any media outlets that have had anything bad to say about hybrid or electric cars. If anything green technology is a media darling.

[Cooter]

You know what kills me about these people who I see when I service their "Green" Hybrid vehicles? Every one of these type people think they are "Getting over on the Government" by not having to pay for as much fuel..As mentioned, taxes are more than the savings they are getting and the car costs more... Just like a Coupon in a Super Market, do you REALLY think your saving money on this item? The store has already marked the item up before they gave out the 50% off coupon. Yes, you didn't have to pay what the poor bast*d walking in off the street without that coupon pays, but the store still makes killer money off dare I say "False advertising"...Then, there's the MVP card or whatever, when you go to Food lion. just because you have this little card, it saves you so much more than the average "Joe" walking in off the street and people accept this? How can a Super Market really rape the poor person that walks in off the street for $6.00 block of cheese, when because the person behind them has this "MVP" card, they get it for $3.98, and still hope to gain new shoppers? And that little card don't mean diddly, as the person with it seems to just let the person who doesn't have one, use it...Bottom line, there just ain't no beating the Gov. at it's own game...Hybrids are great novelties, but they are most certainly not gonna "Revolutionalize" the automobile driving public....They are toys at the present, with loyal following that thinks they are somehow saving this planet...Good for them, but i'll stick to my gas guzzling musclecars, and getting "Screwed" by "the man"...

[SFRT]

I bet that once you tally the actual energy cost of generating the electricity plus the loss in transmitting the energy to the charging point for the car,an electric car probably has a larger real 'footprint' than an efficient oil powered car. very little electricity is generated by renewable green sources.

then theres those pesky batteries. I'd like to know how much energy is needed to make and ship those, and yes, what happens to the junked ecars 20-30 years from now?

if someone was set up to generate their own power, different story.

[defiance]

LOL - the energy cost to produce a car is about the same whether it's gas or electric.  The battery recycling question is silly; of course there are no businesses out there recycling the batteries yet, since there aren't a significant number of them to recycle yet.  The tech is out there to do it and it can be done profitably, but nothing's profitable until you have a steady stream of them to work with.  I agree that the green marketing is silly right now, since pollution is simply shifted instead of averted, but the potential is real - with an electric transportation system we would have the flexibility to adopt 'green' energy sources without having to change Americans' cars.

Just about everyone who can work within these cars' few restrictions will save money - I've already shown you the math, and "the government will make it not save money" is a ridiculous hypothetical- Yes, they'll find some way to tax it (and they should, for transportation purposes!), but unless they tax so much that electricity increases to 7x as high, it'll still save.  I've based all my math on worst-case assumptions about vehicle value and battery life/cost, but if you're basing your argument on a hypothetical as far-fetched as the government adding a 500% tax to electricity, then I get to counter you with claims of $10-per-kw/h battery packs with 500 mile range in the near future!  Oh, and the car craps unicorns while it drives, too!  Let's get real; I've basing my arguments on the real world, I'd hope you would as well.





But in the end, we're just some random guys on a message board arguing about stupid crap.  Some people made their minds up about electric vehicles before the first bits of data were ever available, and nothing I say is going to convince any of those people that electric cars aren't the devil.  And it's unlikely that any of the recycled blog-sourced non-issue complaints being recycled here are going to make math suddenly invert to change the fact that they'll save money and help America become more self-sufficient, which is what matters to me.  

So as long as I'm not removing you guys' devils, and you're not warping my math, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is

[bull]

LOL - the energy cost to produce a car is about the same whether it's gas or electric.  

I disagree, but again, I'm referring to the hybrids. I haven't looked into the straight electric cars enough to know what I'm talking about but as far as hybrids there's an added layer of production involved. They're basically making the regular car and then adding an electric propulsion system on top of it so common sense (along with facts) tells you it's going to require more resources to build.

[Chargerrtforme]

LOL - the energy cost to produce a car is about the same whether it's gas or electric.  

I disagree, but again, I'm referring to the hybrids. I haven't looked into the straight electric cars enough to know what I'm talking about but as far as hybrids there's an added layer of production involved. They're basically making the regular car and then adding an electric propulsion system on top of it so common sense (along with facts) tells you it's going to require more resources to build.

I agree with your disagree. I would think Hybrids do cost  more to build and that's why they cost more to buy and why some people think they are not worth it. But I really don't know?

[Troy]

That just isn't true. Better cheaper batteries are out. Go on eBay and see some others, other companies have created also. The price is down, and better batteries have been designed and there will be even better things to come. That's how it works.

Yeah, I know. And I covered that and I work in the tech industry. It still doesn't make financial sense to me.

That's the cool thing about the Volt, it's the beginning to great things ahead but few see that here and that's O.K because the rest of the world does.

Well, let's see... most of Europe seems to have gravitated towards super efficient diesels. India and China just spit out the cheapest crap they can (safety and the environment be damned!). Africa and most of South America (and Mexico) are running 40 year old technology with no concern at all for fuel mileage or the environment. Unless you live in an "rich" country you're buying the cheapest thing that moves.

Different cars are suited for different reasons.

That has been my point since the first thing I wrote I believe. I've said it before, I'd buy one if it fit my needs and made financial sense *to me*.

What I love about Hybrids is how you sit in hot idle traffic for hours AND THE ENGINE IS OFF.

Not true either. If you are listening to the radio and running the heat or A/C you'll kill the battery if whatever runs the alternator/generator isn't running at some point. The articles on the Volt mention the mileage hit when the A/C is on. I'm sure the rest have similar problems. If you drive a gas car you can shut the engine off too. It's real easy. Of course the super smart computer doesn't do it for you if you're too lazy to reach up and turn the key!

Troy

[1969chargerrtse]

That just isn't true. Better cheaper batteries are out. Go on eBay and see some others, other companies have created also. The price is down, and better batteries have been designed and there will be even better things to come. That's how it works.

Yeah, I know. And I covered that and I work in the tech industry. It still doesn't make financial sense to me.

That's the cool thing about the Volt, it's the beginning to great things ahead but few see that here and that's O.K because the rest of the world does.

Well, let's see... most of Europe seems to have gravitated towards super efficient diesels. India and China just spit out the cheapest crap they can (safety and the environment be damned!). Africa and most of South America (and Mexico) are running 40 year old technology with no concern at all for fuel mileage or the environment. Unless you live in an "rich" country you're buying the cheapest thing that moves.

Different cars are suited for different reasons.

That has been my point since the first thing I wrote I believe. I've said it before, I'd buy one if it fit my needs and made financial sense *to me*.

What I love about Hybrids is how you sit in hot idle traffic for hours AND THE ENGINE IS OFF.

Not true either. If you are listening to the radio and running the heat or A/C you'll kill the battery if whatever runs the alternator/generator isn't running at some point. The articles on the Volt mention the mileage hit when the A/C is on. I'm sure the rest have similar problems. If you drive a gas car you can shut the engine off too. It's real easy. Of course the super smart computer doesn't do it for you if you're too lazy to reach up and turn the key!

Troy

" Not true either "
WTH? more than one?

[Ghoste]

I still think Ghost started this thread to stir the pot. Winter boredom?  

Actually I started it because I'm pissed that my electricity bill is going up 7.9% each year for the next five years (and those increases are being attributed to efforts to make the whining greens vote for the liberals).  This increase along with the wild assertions that electric cars are the greatest thing to ever happen in the history of wheeled vehicles just leaves me cold.  Honestly I expected the thread to die quickly or turn into some other political rant.  It actually introduced some good debates on a few points that are intricately linked to the whole electric car public relations exercise but are never mentioned in the mind numbing cheerleading fests.  The fact that road taxes need to come from somewhere and that electrical energy isn't as clean and carbon free as electric car mavens want us to believe.
So yes, we are all angered about rising fuel costs but anyone who thinks that are set to get a free ride or even a cheap ride on the lectric car bandwagon is in for a HUGE wakeup call.  My prediction is that electric cars WILL ABSOLUTELY end up being just as expensive as your internal combustion vehicle in virtually every way!  So tell me again why I should like them?

[defiance]

My prediction is that electric cars WILL ABSOLUTELY end up being just as expensive as your internal combustion vehicle in virtually every way!  So tell me again why I should like them?

So your complaint is that your electricity goes up by 7.xxx%.  Meanwhile, you insist that electricity will go up by OVER 500% (as would be necessary for electric cars to be "just as expensive" as you predict they will).



There comes a point when logic becomes so far from reason that no argument can possibly hope to accomplish anything

[1969chargerrtse]

My prediction is that electric cars WILL ABSOLUTELY end up being just as expensive as your internal combustion vehicle in virtually every way!  So tell me again why I should like them?

So your complaint is that your electricity goes up by 7.xxx%. Meanwhile, you insist that electricity will go up by OVER 500% (as would be necessary for electric cars to be "just as expensive" as you predict they will).



There comes a point when logic becomes so far from reason that no argument can possibly hope to accomplish anything

 Ha ha.  Sorry but that is funny.  I do have to add, normally he makes good sense. 

[Ghoste]

Yeah yeah whatever.  And you guys keep telling me why you like the electric revolution but you have yet to tell me why I should like it.  Your arguments in favor of are as baseless as mine against since neither one of us can prove events that have yet to happen.  I say electric cars will end up being just as expensive and you say no way.  When you can prove your hypothesis will be about the same time I can prove mine and until that day we are both just offering an OPINION. How is that for illogical?

[Cooter]

Ghoste, This would be turning point in your own thread...You know, where you become the "Minority" opinion..You've seen it many times before with your post count. You know, when at the point where more than one person disagrees with you and therefore, you have become a target for all kinds to "Get their shots in while they can"...It's a terrible thing when a thread goes bad like this. Once the agreed with person in the thread, now left to defend oneself against all kinds of shots coming from both sides. Be strong my friend, for there are those in this very thread that agree with you, but are too afraid of being the punching bag, "Minority" like you have become now and refuse to post. Once this happens, you are all alone my friend. I never understood this, but unfortunately that seems to be the "Forum eticut"(Spelling?) these days. Kinda "Facebook" like if you ask me, but I degress....Good luck bro. as I may need some pointers from you on dealing with being the "Underdog Minority" in the future. I hope you won't hold it against me that I didn't come in and try to help here, as then I too would be in the same "Minority" boat.

What's that old saying bout wallowing in the mud with a pig only gets you dirty, as sooner or later, you begin to reallize that the pig likes it?

[elacruze]

Yeah yeah whatever.  And you guys keep telling me why you like the electric revolution but you have yet to tell me why I should like it.  Your arguments in favor of are as baseless as mine against since neither one of us can prove events that have yet to happen.  I say electric cars will end up being just as expensive and you say no way.  When you can prove your hypothesis will be about the same time I can prove mine and until that day we are both just offering an OPINION. How is that for illogical?

Here's a reason-

Investment in electric-transportation interests. Money to be made, whether you ride one or not. Not very often comes an obvious upside as big as this one.

[maxwellwedge]

One thing about goverment.....There is never a free lunch....They will always try and find a way to wring every penny out of us - always have.

If it came down to everyone ditching their gas/electric/hydrogen/solar/dilithium crystal cars and just walk everywhere - the sidewalks will become a toll Super Walkway and we would all be expected to buy government issued pedometers. Those who don't wish to purchase said pedometers will be charged a video toll charge premium.

[mauve66]

i don't think ghoste is the minority at all

remember when gas was "cheap"?  there has never been a "gas shortage" just the control of inventory by those producing it, then the taxes started, then the people producing most of what we use, read CANADIANS, decide to keep raising the prices.  yes OPEC sets the price but you don't hear the canadians arguing about either

so when cities (and states) have "rolling black outs for 1-4 hours" to ease the burden on an already over taxed electrical grid, how do you get your car charged??  and read the "already overtaxed part again, so we just want to all to the problem, even if its .07%, your still adding to the problem

once we get to the majority of cars being electric, guess what, THOSE producers will control the inventory and cost again

we already give away part of our HIGHWAY taxes to others such as AMTRAK, maybe we can help subsidize another private industry like power generating plants

oh yeah, and those power generating plants that burn COAL for 80% of their energy generation, if electricity is so clean i wonder why we don't have coal burning cars with an electrical generator on it...........................

[twodko]

So Ghoste is the root of all this dissent?.........who would have thought?