Tell me again why I'm supposed to like electric cars

[Chargerrtforme]

That sucks, but you have to pay one way or the other. It's all the same. You drive. You contribute.

[Ghoste]

It doesn't suck nearly as much as being one of the "dinosaurs" paying taxes for road projects that are used by the very same group that hates you.

[68X426]

It doesn't suck nearly as much as being one of the "dinosaurs" paying taxes for road projects that are used by the very same group that hates you.

Well said.

[defiance]

Yep, electrics have to contribute to highway maintenance one way or another. 

[Wicked72]

Hmm an electric charger..wont sound the same...but I guess a loud speaker under the car with hemi sound clips should do the trick.....HAHAHA nahI dont think so.

[flyinlow]

Hydrogen fuel cells sound promissing,however where will we get the large amounts of hydrogen from?

Water?

Right now lot of the hydrogen produced is from natural gas (CH4). Splitting water is chemically perfect, just electrically intensive. If you can produce large amounts of electricity in the 3-5 cent per KWH range is will work.

[1969chargerrtse]

Hmm an electric charger..wont sound the same...but I guess a loud speaker under the car with hemi sound clips should do the trick.....HAHAHA nahI dont think so.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.  What we love today which is loud rumbling engines with lots of moving parts reversing in direction at 55 times a second may be annoying to a new generation grown up on the sweet hummm of an electric motor.  They may not want that loud speaker sound at all. 

[bull]

Hmm an electric charger..wont sound the same...but I guess a loud speaker under the car with hemi sound clips should do the trick.....HAHAHA nahI dont think so.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.  What we love today which is loud rumbling engines with lots of moving parts reversing in direction at 55 times a second may be annoying to a new generation grown up on the sweet hummm of an electric motor.  They may not want that loud speaker sound at all. 

Screw them.

Speaking of user fees, how come these jackwagon bicycle riders don't have to pay to use the roads?

[1969chargerrtse]

Hmm an electric charger..wont sound the same...but I guess a loud speaker under the car with hemi sound clips should do the trick.....HAHAHA nahI dont think so.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.  What we love today which is loud rumbling engines with lots of moving parts reversing in direction at 55 times a second may be annoying to a new generation grown up on the sweet hummm of an electric motor.  They may not want that loud speaker sound at all. 

Screw them.

Speaking of user fees, how come these jackwagon bicycle riders don't have to pay to use the roads?

Yeah, good point! Screw them   

[elacruze]

Hmm an electric charger..wont sound the same...but I guess a loud speaker under the car with hemi sound clips should do the trick.....HAHAHA nahI dont think so.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.  What we love today which is loud rumbling engines with lots of moving parts reversing in direction at 55 times a second may be annoying to a new generation grown up on the sweet hummm of an electric motor.  They may not want that loud speaker sound at all. 

Screw them.

Speaking of user fees, how come these jackwagon bicycle riders don't have to pay to use the roads?

Because the roads were not built for bicycles, they were built for cars. Bicycles worked perfectly well on cow paths before pavement came to be.

[Chargerrtforme]

Years back bicycles did ride on roads that were for man and horses. Then cars came along. Those tight ass bike riders that think they are cars and ride out in the road NEED TO PAY!!!   

[Ghoste]

Well, after the 50 guys in our municipality who wanted it whined enough, we ALL got to pay to have special bike lanes painted on a bunch of the streets.  Now the streets are narrower, you hardly ever see the 50 people who are the same 50 people who drove there without incident before it was a bike lane.  Plus we get to pay for upkeep on repainting the lines every spring and if you are driving in them you are subject to a fine.  The other 98% of the bike users still use quiet side streets, sidewalks, and greenbelt paths like they did before.

[68blue]

I have a question about these car types, how long do the betteries last and what is the cost to replace them? I would imagine that they act like other rechargables and just lose capacity over time but I don't know anybody who drives one. When you change out the batteries are you upside down on the car's value at that point?

[Troy]

I have a question about these car types, how long do the betteries last and what is the cost to replace them? I would imagine that they act like other rechargables and just lose capacity over time but I don't know anybody who drives one. When you change out the batteries are you upside down on the car's value at that point?

Generally, you junk the car. Originally the Prius had an 8 year warranty on the battery but they soon upped it to 10 years. Some of the original owners have obviousl run out of warranty and found that replacing their dead battery was going to be about $4,500 at the dealer. This is on a $10,000 (max) used car. I have read that you can buy the batteries cheaper elsewhere (not a LOT cheaper but less) and you can always buy used from a salvage yard and take your chances. The Nissan Leaf gets around this issue by leasing the battery so they just swap it out (which also keeps the initial price down). At least that's what they were saying before. As mentioned, there's not a way to recycle the batteries at this time so they basically just pile up until someone figures out how to do it cheaply enough to make it worthwhile.

Obviously, as production levels increase prices come down and infrastructure for all the specific issues becomes available.

Troy

[defiance]

I have a question about these car types, how long do the betteries last and what is the cost to replace them? I would imagine that they act like other rechargables and just lose capacity over time but I don't know anybody who drives one. When you change out the batteries are you upside down on the car's value at that point?

Nissan's testing on the packs they use for the leaf, according to published figures, is 80% after 8 years.  They don't discuss after that, so I'd assume fast decline after that.  They also have an 8yr warranty on the battery.  Nissan isn't publishing their battery cost, but they've made some comments that give guidance (for example, one analyst asked a question and reference price-per-kw/h expectations, and the Nissan rep laughed and said something like, "if it cost us that much the price of the car would be higher..." or something like that) - enough comments that most analysts agree the cost is around $9500 for the leaf battery pack.

So in other words, yes, the car would need to be scrapped (recycled) after 8-10 years or pay nearly a third of the original cost of the vehicle for a new battery pack, and anyone considering one should build that cost into their estimates.  Having said that, productionalizing something like that will likely bring costs down, and capacities will likely increase - so it's very possible that in 10 years a leaf owner would replace their pack with one having 50% more range at an even lower cost - but again, I'd recommend doing the cost analysis based on current costs and capabilities.

[Chargerrtforme]

There's always an answer. These things are thought of before the car is even built.


" Nissan has said that it will have a recycling process in place by the time it launches its LEAF later this year. Tesla already has a recycling program, and says it's looking for ways to continue to use the batteries themselves even after they're no longer capable of powering a car. Tesla engineer Kurt Kelty has gone so far as to suggest that the batteries could be reused as part of energy storage systems for home solar installations and windmills. "

[Chargerrtforme]

I have a question about these car types, how long do the betteries last and what is the cost to replace them? I would imagine that they act like other rechargables and just lose capacity over time but I don't know anybody who drives one. When you change out the batteries are you upside down on the car's value at that point?

" We understand that outside temperatures can have a big impact on how a battery operates and will affect the Volt as well, but the good news for Volt fans is that Green Car Advisor got it wrong. They said that hot weather Volt owners will get less than ten years of life from the pack, saying Volts in "many parts of the western and southern U.S." would not get "the normal 10-year life of the battery." Not true, says GM, which is confident that everyone will get 10 years from the pack. GM's hybrid and battery technology communication spokesman Brian Corbett told AutoblogGreen that, "in more moderate areas of the country, battery performance could last beyond 10 years. 10 years is our minimum target life for everybody."

[Chargerrtforme]

I don't believe battery replacement for a Prius would be 4,500 and you would junk the car.

"Welcome to PriusChat, Morris. Prius HV battery replacements have been rare in the 2001-2003 model, and perhaps none at all in the newer model yet. I believe the US warranty is 100,000 miles in most states and 150k in Calif. and a few other states.

Just yesterday I heard Dave Hermance (one of Toyota's chief engineers) say that a replacement battery for the classic model costs $2500 and that the new model is less (it's smaller). I had previously heard numbers closer to $4K. He also mentioned Toyota's lab testing of batteries to 150k miles with no measurable degradation.

The Odometer Champ is probably Andrew Grant's Prius taxi fleet in Vancouver BC. No battery replacements there yet.

Sad to say, a steady supply of used HV batteries comes from wrecked vehicles. These typically sell for $400-$1000. This is the alternative to buying new. "

[bull]

Hmm an electric charger..wont sound the same...but I guess a loud speaker under the car with hemi sound clips should do the trick.....HAHAHA nahI dont think so.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box.  What we love today which is loud rumbling engines with lots of moving parts reversing in direction at 55 times a second may be annoying to a new generation grown up on the sweet hummm of an electric motor.  They may not want that loud speaker sound at all.  

Screw them.

Speaking of user fees, how come these jackwagon bicycle riders don't have to pay to use the roads?

Because the roads were not built for bicycles, they were built for cars. Bicycles worked perfectly well on cow paths before pavement came to be.

So did cars. And 90% of the roads I drive on have bike paths right on the road surface, and bikes have the right of way and are given precedence over all other traffic except pedestrians. So yea, tax 'em.

[Troy]

That quote even states that he'd heard the prices were close to $4,000 (much like I did). Even at $2,500, that would just about replace a whole lot of parts on a gas powered vehicle that cost $8-10k less originally (and shouldn't be completely useless with 100,000 miles). That "cost" doesn't include labor either. I go back to my comparison to the Corolla - a new one is $14-17k and gets approximately 40 mpg under most all conditions. With 100k miles it's still happily puttering along and is due for it's first tune-up. After 10 years it's worth only slightly less than a Prius (the first two I found with about 100k locally were $6k for the Corolla and $8k for the Prius). If you had a $6k (retail) Corrolla and an engine repair (replacement?) was going to cost $2,500 would you keep it? After installing the battery the Prius still has another separate gasoline system with 100k miles on it as well.

Look, I'm all for technology but the numbers don't add up *for me*. There's nothing worse than a "fan" who won't shut up about their favorite team, car, cell phone, or bicycle even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. It made be good, but it's not so much better that a person should throw out all common sense and renounce everything else. I'm sure the technology will continue to get better and the playing field will be more even - but it hasn't yet. Heck, our old cars can't hold a candle to most new ones in terms of fit, finish, reliability, power, speed, handling, comfort, and on and on. Even 5 year old cars aren't nearly as good/nice as brand new ones.

Troy

[1969chargerrtse]

That quote even states that he'd heard the prices were close to $4,000 (much like I did). Even at $2,500, that would just about replace a whole lot of parts on a gas powered vehicle that cost $8-10k less originally (and shouldn't be completely useless with 100,000 miles). That "cost" doesn't include labor either. I go back to my comparison to the Corolla - a new one is $14-17k and gets approximately 40 mpg under most all conditions. With 100k miles it's still happily puttering along and is due for it's first tune-up. After 10 years it's worth only slightly less than a Prius (the first two I found with about 100k locally were $6k for the Corolla and $8k for the Prius). If you had a $6k (retail) Corrolla and an engine repair (replacement?) was going to cost $2,500 would you keep it? After installing the battery the Prius still has another separate gasoline system with 100k miles on it as well.

Look, I'm all for technology but the numbers don't add up *for me*. There's nothing worse than a "fan" who won't shut up about their favorite team, car, cell phone, or bicycle even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. It made be good, but it's not so much better that a person should throw out all common sense and renounce everything else. I'm sure the technology will continue to get better and the playing field will be more even - but it hasn't yet. Heck, our old cars can't hold a candle to most new ones in terms of fit, finish, reliability, power, speed, handling, comfort, and on and on. Even 5 year old cars aren't nearly as good/nice as brand new ones.

Troy

" " I'm sure the technology will continue to get better and the playing field will be more even - but it hasn't yet. "

Gee, Troy how about giving it a little more than the simple 3 months it been out?  Since the first upbeat posting of the Volt coming out many of you have tried every excuse possible to say it won't work, or it can't work, or what will they do with the batteries, and how will the grid handle it? and GM sucks and Mopar is great.  Maybe that's why some fans seem a little die hard.  It does work, it is here, and it's getting great reviews.
What the heck is so bad about a new technology that comes along in hopes of saving us all money on transportation cost?  That's all it's about and yes I'm a fan of that.  

[lisiecki1]

I think a big point that has been made consistantly is that ultimately there wont be any savings.  The proposed "electric vehicle tax" stated earlier is just the tip of the iceburg, I'm sure.

I'm all for the new technology, and the design of the volt isn't all that bad.  I'd drive one if it were given to me.

However, I just don't see it as the game changer that many are making it out to be.

[1969chargerrtse]

I think a big point that has been made consistently is that ultimately there wont be any savings.  The proposed "electric vehicle tax" stated earlier is just the tip of the iceburg, I'm sure.

I'm all for the new technology, and the design of the volt isn't all that bad.  I'd drive one if it were given to me.

However, I just don't see it as the game changer that many are making it out to be.

EPA rating is about 100mpg, electric cost is about 7 times better per mile than gas, and this is the first model.  Already they are in the process of making better batteries and it's not even offered in all 50 states yet, it's that new.
You must be blind if you don't see as a Game changer.  Sit back and watch the show because it is.

[lisiecki1]

Okay, I'm blind.

And you can't read. 

Or don't care to read what other people write when the opinion differs from your own, either way.

[Troy]

That quote even states that he'd heard the prices were close to $4,000 (much like I did). Even at $2,500, that would just about replace a whole lot of parts on a gas powered vehicle that cost $8-10k less originally (and shouldn't be completely useless with 100,000 miles). That "cost" doesn't include labor either. I go back to my comparison to the Corolla - a new one is $14-17k and gets approximately 40 mpg under most all conditions. With 100k miles it's still happily puttering along and is due for it's first tune-up. After 10 years it's worth only slightly less than a Prius (the first two I found with about 100k locally were $6k for the Corolla and $8k for the Prius). If you had a $6k (retail) Corrolla and an engine repair (replacement?) was going to cost $2,500 would you keep it? After installing the battery the Prius still has another separate gasoline system with 100k miles on it as well.

Look, I'm all for technology but the numbers don't add up *for me*. There's nothing worse than a "fan" who won't shut up about their favorite team, car, cell phone, or bicycle even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread. It made be good, but it's not so much better that a person should throw out all common sense and renounce everything else. I'm sure the technology will continue to get better and the playing field will be more even - but it hasn't yet. Heck, our old cars can't hold a candle to most new ones in terms of fit, finish, reliability, power, speed, handling, comfort, and on and on. Even 5 year old cars aren't nearly as good/nice as brand new ones.

Troy

" " I'm sure the technology will continue to get better and the playing field will be more even - but it hasn't yet. "

Gee, Troy how about giving it a little more than the simple 3 months it been out?  Since the first upbeat posting of the Volt coming out many of you have tried every excuse possible to say it won't work, or it can't work, or what will they do with the batteries, and how will the grid handle it? and GM sucks and Mopar is great.  Maybe that's why some fans seem a little die hard.  It does work, it is here, and it's getting great reviews.
What the heck is so bad about a new technology that comes along in hopes of saving us all money on transportation cost?  That's all it's about and yes I'm a fan of that. 

I never mentioned the Volt in that quote. Yes, it's hard to compare a 3 month old Volt to anything that's been around longer than 3 months. So I didn't. However, the Prius *has* been out for 10 years and there still isn't a solution to the battery problem or the cost problem so I felt it was fair game.

If Mopar made it (Leaf, Volt, or Prius) I still wouldn't buy it simply because I'm not buying anything made by Chrysler at the moment - nor will I step foot in the parts or service area at any of the local dealerships (but that's a different story).

This particular technology is NOT saving anyone any money as far as I can tell. Can it? Probably.

On a slight tangent... I've been doing some reading into water/methanol injection and on board hydrogen generation (not hydrogen powered - just assisted) using water. The scientists working on the research are complaining that the EPA (and US govt in general) are blocking, stonewalling, fining, and shutting down the companies involved. The argument is that the govt simply hasn't figured out how to tax it. I guess now when you come up with a solution to the world's energy problems you also need to submit a detailed plan for every level of government to get their piece.

Troy