Tell me again why I'm supposed to like electric cars

[elacruze]

If you look into how much Cash China is spending on electric transportation infrastructure, you quickly see that the U.S. infrastructure could not support a large shift to battery powered vehicles. Heck, California can't even stay lit as it is.
Add the cost of infrastructure to the already   of battery power, and it should be obvious that fuel cells are the only way that electric vehicles will make headway in the U.S. The cost of electricity at the house plug is irrelevant.

[defiance]

Electric cars are completely unready for long trips, that I'll agree on.  Even with quick charges, they still only recommend doing that max once a day, so that's still a 200-mile range.  

As for the energy grid being ready, that's true as well, if we were talking about mass adoption - on average a US home consumes 920kw/h per month.  If you drive half the range 5 days a week, a leaf would add another 240 to that, so it's another 25%.  No way we can just jump up the grid to support a 25% increase, right?

But when you're talking about consumer adoption, it's going to be slow - Stretch goals are a million by 2015.  That's one third of one percent in 4 years.  Meaning a .07% average increase in grid consumption.  Even if that rate went through the ROOF it would never hit 10% in a decade, so that's 2.5% increase in 10 years.  Still not an issue.  Electric vehicle adoption is going to be slow enough that the grid will have no trouble keeping up.

[bull]

And now, the top 10 reasons why you should like electric cars:

10. More gas for big blocks.
9. The Tesla
8. You'll be saving the planet so that a much cooler bad-ass disaster (like and alien invasion) can befall it.
7. You can start selling carbon credits to your coworkers for lunch money.
6. It won't go far enough to get you to your Mother-In-Laws house.
5. Two words: Tax Credit.
4. Fart pipes don't work on them.
3. Never having to get within 20 feet of a gas station toilet again.
2. You can sneak in quitely after a late night at the pool hall.
1. Free-willed hippy Chicks dig 'em.

Reason #8 is a total crock (minus the alien invasion) and #1 would be cool if they took showers more than once per quarter. But #6 alone could convince me.

[PocketThunder]

And now, the top 10 reasons why you should like electric cars:

10. More gas for big blocks.
9. The Tesla
8. You'll be saving the planet so that a much cooler bad-ass disaster (like and alien invasion) can befall it.
7. You can start selling carbon credits to your coworkers for lunch money.
6. It won't go far enough to get you to your Mother-In-Laws house.
5. Two words: Tax Credit.
4. Fart pipes don't work on them.
3. Never having to get within 20 feet of a gas station toilet again.
2. You can sneak in quitely after a late night at the pool hall.
1. Free-willed hippy Chicks dig 'em.

Reason #8 is a total crock (minus the alien invasion) and #1 would be cool if they took showers more than once per quarter. But #6 alone could convince me.

I'm with you on #6, but the mother-in-law still drives a gas car and will still come over here if we dont go there as much!   

[twodko]

Your response to my post is rife with assumptions.

You're right, I did make one false assumption (below)

You assume that "I don't understand people whose perspective I clearly don't understand". Sounds like you are insulting me.

Not an insult, just pointing it out -you implied by the nature of your assertion (see below) that there are motivations for the adoption of electric vehicles that you do not understand.  That assumption may have been flawed - but you go on about your perception of the lack of "greenness" of electric cars and the arrogance of their owners (in spite of the fact that your chances of having actually met one, given the number out there, are pretty close to zero), either ignorant of or ignoring the facts that there are multiple motivations for electrical vehicles, only one of which is environmental impact, and of course ignoring the fact that many people who own electric vehicles are generally nice guys - and ignoring the fact that you've certainly not met enough to make any sort of generalizations such as that.

What I understand is the their attitude. I'd like us all to live in a more environmentally conscious world too but this has nothing to do with these folks' smugness.

You understand the attitudes of electric vehicle owners - how, because you know so many? I see.  And all charger owners are idiot hillbillies, right?  No, of course not.  Stereotypes like that serve no purpose other than fallacious arguments for the lazy haters.  Rather than repeating tired stereotypes, maybe make some effort next time, at least.

Enlighten me as to where the "insults" are other than the one you just paid me.

Um.... ok:
... sheeple ... self-righteous ... arrogant ... "I'm so much smarter than you" attitude ... Pious et al owners make electric cars as laughable ...

My description of this segment of the driving public speaks to their snootiness. Read broad stroke here as "in general", not all electric car owners.

Because you know so many electric car owners, enough to make such a wide assertion about the "general" electric car owner, right?

Again, you made an assumption. I'm amused that you are amused, I do what I can.

I've assumed nothing other than your own statements.

Please share with me why I'm a hypocrite for my point of view. Is it because my opinion is not the same as yours therefore I must be a hypocite?

Simple - when one arrogantly insults a group of people - for being arrogant -  I would consider such to be ironic and amusing.  

Are you "assuming" I don't realise many people buy these cars for the fuel economy, ease of parking, city driving and not as an environmental statement.....sounds like another assumption. Perhaps you're reading far more into my comments than what I intended.

Ah, you're right, you called the car a "huge fraud" based on one questionably accurate "fact", ignoring the landslide of other legitimate reasons for ownership, I assumed you honestly didn't realize that they existed, rather than twisting an argument by means of willful disregard for relevant facts.  Silly me!

You did make several assumptions and continue to do so.

"(in spite of the fact that your chances of having actually met one, given the number out there, are pretty close to zero)"

It creeps me out that you know me so well you're able to tell me what I think. I live in NorCal in a small community where every other car is a Pious.  Can't live here without knowing people who own hybrid cars despite your assertion "My chances of having actually met one are close to zero". Another assumption on your part. I refer to the Toyota hybrid as a Pious because that IS the attitude of EC drivers in this county with the occasional refreshing exception. That's the reality of this area whether it pleases you or not. Don't tell me what I know or don't know. You don't know me or the dynamics of this area. Reread my post, in it you'll find I spoke to several reasons people buy hybrids.


"and ignoring the fact that you've certainly not met enough to make any sort of generalizations such as that."

Another assumption. In this area such a generalization is valid. I'm sure by the tone of your response you'll find this bothersome.

"You understand the attitudes of electric vehicle owners - how, because you know so many? I see.  And all charger owners are idiot hillbillies, right?  No, of course not.  Stereotypes like that serve no purpose other than fallacious arguments for the lazy haters .  Rather than repeating , maybe make some effort next time, at least."

Yo have a talent for condescension and inflammatory interpretation of someone's opinion that differs from your own. I'm repeating NO "tired stereotypes", I am speaking only to the attitude that permeates this area. I live here, I frequently experience the lofty position held by many of these folks. You are correct that profiling any group for any reason does indeed serve no purpose.

"maybe make some effort next time" is both combative and counter productive. Casting such aspersions has no place in any adult debate. I urge you to refrain from deciding how much or how little "effort" someone else contributes to a discussion. Your opinion and yours only. The degree to which a person engages in a debate is not indicative of the depth of their "effort" or commitment to a healthy debate. Why continue a debate if either party isn't receptive to a different train of thought? To infer I'm a "lazy hater" is offensive and sheds a clear light on opinions not shared by you.

"Ah, you're right, you called the car a "huge fraud" based on one questionably accurate "fact", ignoring the landslide of , I assumed you honestly didn't realize that they existed, rather than twisting an argument by means of willful disregard for relevant facts.  Silly me!"

I certainly did call Hybrids a huge fraud because of the massive ad campaigns touting how environmentally friendly these cars are aside from better gas milage. The batt packs are not recyclable at this time, they must be stored until the technology exist to do so. Therein lies the fraud. What would you call it? Check it out for yourself unless that might dash your rebuttal. Again, I mentioned several reasons people purchase hybrid cars other than jumping on the sheeple bandwagon because "everyone else is buying them so it must be the right thing to do". See above.

"I assumed you honestly didn't realize other legitimate reasons for ownership" Again, see above and again you've made yet another assumption.


"twisting an argument by means of willful disregard for relevant facts."

Give me a break. The only manipulation of "relevant facts" appears in your responses in defense of what you have read into my comments. Debate for the sake of debate has no value. In light of our differring views its best we agree to disagree.  

[defiance]

You're right, I'm assuming you don't know a statistically significant sample of electric car owners to make such a generalization - my assumption is based on the fact that in order to have done so, you'd have had to make extensive effort to do so (travel, etc), and your attitude gives good reason to believe you wouldn't be interested in doing so.

Even if you know every prius owner within 20 miles of you, it's not a statistically signficant sample of prius owners in the U.S., so your assertion of the attitude of Prius owners would still be mathmatically invalid.  But even if you were right (which you aren't), a prius is not an electric car.  I'm a member of a forum much like this one with over a thousand members, and over 90% of them either already own or are in the process of buying an electric car.  And your assertion about the attitudes of electric car owners, based on that sample, is entirely incorrect.  Every community has arrogant jerks, but for the most part the entire group is friendly, helpful, and excited about electric cars for a wide variety of reasons.  Does that prove that electric car owners are generally nice?  Not by a long shot, but it is a much more solid example than the guys in your neighborhood that own a not-really-similar car.


The length you go to defend an insulting stereotype about people you've not met is pretty sad, and I'm done discussing it with you.

I do wish you a a wonderful evening, however, and I hope you recover from whatever experience left you so bitter toward a group of people you don't know.

[twodko]

Mr. Assumption is "done with me". Thank my lucky stars! 

[A383Wing]

[1969chargerrtse]

Ha ha.  That's funny.  I stayed out of the whole thing.  Not worth it.  Lifes to short for that crap.

[Ghoste]

And after all of that I'm still pissed about my rising electricity costs and have even less desire to own an electric car than when I started the thread.  Go figure. 

[Cooter]

Lemme see a fully electric truck hook to MY TRAILER and TOW MY Charger @ 3800 Lbs, 300 Miles to Carlisle on one charge....


My 1983, 318, dodge truck did it on one tank of fuel...then, I'll "go Green"...

[mikesbbody]

And the Winner is...Twodko 

[1969chargerrtse]

That's not fair? "defiance " did the most writing.  Poll Poll Poll!!

[defiance]

lol - statistical significants obviously doesn't count for much in this crowd 

[flyinlow]

 Hydrogen fuel cells sound promissing,however where will we get the large amounts of hydrogen from?

[elacruze]

Hydrogen fuel cells sound promissing,however where will we get the large amounts of hydrogen from?

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html

[TeeWJay426]

And the Winner is...Twodko 

Nah, I think Cooter said it best:

Lemme see a fully electric truck hook to MY TRAILER and TOW MY Charger @ 3800 Lbs, 300 Miles to Carlisle on one charge....


My 1983, 318, dodge truck did it on one tank of fuel...then, I'll "go Green"...

[defiance]

Hydrogen fuel cells sound promissing,however where will we get the large amounts of hydrogen from?

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html

Interesting, but not feasible on a large scale without a HUGE decrease in the cost of aluminum.  The researcher implies that it could be made feasible by a better method for recycling alumina, and that's true, but that's not something you can just clap your hands and make happen.  There's simply not a quick fix for deoxidizing metals, including alumuminum.  Even their proposed fix ends up just using electricity to perform the recycling, so the advantage over direct use of electricity is lost.

[68X426]

I'll take this over an electric car.

[1969chargerrtse]

Hydrogen fuel cells sound promissing,however where will we get the large amounts of hydrogen from?

Water?

[mikesbbody]

That's not fair? "defiance " did the most writing.  Poll Poll Poll!!

I was joking about the "Winner" thing  both brought up good, valid points IMO. To me, it's simple if you think a Hybrid/electric car Fit's into your lifestyle then buy one if not (for whatever reason even if you just don't like them) then don't. I cant see the Oil
Companies being too pleased about losing Millions/Billions of $ because Gasoline cars are no longer made I just cant see Electric cars
Completely replacing regular Gasoline powered cars FWIW, I don't believe the world is running out of Oil but that's just my opinion.
Remember, the Gas companies (along with the Media) Control EVERYTHING (I don't want to get into the conspiracy theory debate)
Personally, i will only ever drive/own a Hybrid/electric car if 1. Gasoline powered cars are no longer made or 2. its illegal to drive a
Gasoline powered car. MPG does matter to me (for my D.D car not the Charger  ) Gas costs 2.00$ per Liter here (in New Zealand) a LITER not a gallon. Hydrogen cars? more potential I can see them being a better alternative to Hybrid/Electric Cars. Twocents:     

[1969chargerrtse]

That's not fair? "defiance " did the most writing.  Poll Poll Poll!!

I was joking about the "Winner" thing   both brought up good, valid points IMO. To me, it's simple if you think a Hybrid/electric car Fit's into your lifestyle then buy one if not (for whatever reason even if you just don't like them) then don't. I cant see the Oil
Companies being too pleased about losing Millions/Billions of $ because Gasoline cars are no longer made I just cant see Electric cars
Completely replacing regular Gasoline powered cars FWIW, I don't believe the world is running out of Oil but that's just my opinion.
Remember, the Gas companies (along with the Media) Control EVERYTHING (I don't want to get into the conspiracy theory debate)
Personally, i will only ever drive/own a Hybrid/electric car if 1. Gasoline powered cars are no longer made or 2. its illegal to drive a
Gasoline powered car. MPG does matter to me (for my D.D car not the Charger  ) Gas costs 2.00$ per Liter here (in New Zealand) a LITER not a gallon. Hydrogen cars? more potential I can see them being a better alternative to Hybrid/Electric Cars. Twocents:      

Thing is, Hybrid cars and now a car like the volt that is all electric but generator back up are the stepping stones to a Hydrogen car.  There are many Hydrogen cars already out there.  The FCX Clarity has been in CA for about 5 years now.  Gm has a Hydrogen pickup the Army uses.  BMW has Hydrogen cars in service.  It's coming and it will benefit all of us .  All you do is remove the batteries and add the fuel cell.  Cool stuff.

[mikesbbody]

I like the Chevy Volt and would own and drive one but if it came down to Owning a C.V, or a Regular Car (same price) I would probably choose the Regular car why? Well the C.V is New car and you could have some "new" problems to go along with being new (understandable) living over the other side of the World, it may not be as simple as taking it to the Local Mechanic 
Also, I have to admit I am one of those People who are a Tad "Old fashioned" I wouldn't say technology scares me but, a lot of it
I either don't care for, or can do without (I didn't own a Cell Phone until mid 2006! and that was only because I was buying a House at the time) Then again, if the cost to run the Volt was much Cheaper than the Regular car (even with charging costs and price of electricity is high here!) I would consider it (not that I can see myself being in a position to buy a new car) Looking at the motor of the C.V I wouldn't want to try fixing it (unless I was SURE I knew what I was doing with my D.D and Charger, at least I have some idea for the record, I DO like the C.V I hope It is a success and I re-read the Article in Auto Enthusiast Magazine and was more impressed 2nd time around! I actually think this Car would suit me since I commute very short distances daily 

[1969chargerrtse]

I like the Chevy Volt and would own and drive one but if it came down to Owning a C.V, or a Regular Car (same price) I would probably choose the Regular car why? Well the C.V is New car and you could have some "new" problems to go along with being new (understandable) living over the other side of the World, it may not be as simple as taking it to the Local Mechanic  
Also, I have to admit I am one of those People who are a Tad "Old fashioned" I wouldn't say technology scares me but, a lot of it
I either don't care for, or can do without (I didn't own a Cell Phone until mid 2006! and that was only because I was buying a House at the time) Then again, if the cost to run the Volt was much Cheaper than the Regular car (even with charging costs and price of electricity is high here!) I would consider it (not that I can see myself being in a position to buy a new car) Looking at the motor of the C.V I wouldn't want to try fixing it (unless I was SURE I knew what I was doing with my D.D and Charger, at least I have some idea for the record, I DO like the C.V I hope It is a success and I re-read the Article in Auto Enthusiast Magazine and was more impressed 2nd time around! I actually think this Car would suit me since I commute very short distances daily  

Niiiiiiice. Well said.  I feel the same way.  I don't care if it runs on prunes. If it's a cheaper way, can save me money so I can use that money for my family, I say go for it. The Volt idea came out when gas was 5.00 a gallon. GM has had Volt mules built and running for years. They drove this thing out in the desert and frozen lands.  I saw a video with the president there as they were assembling it on the line and he was saying this car has to be perfect. They knew this could be a make it or break thing for GM. IT had to be perfect. Every once and a while the car companies build a car that they really put their heart and soul in, this is that car. Yes, that once and awhile is when they have been building crap for so long that their around the corner from going out of business.

Hey come on, If jay Leno loves it......  

Oh and one last thing.  I remember Toyota saying Gm will never do it.  They will fail at building the car, it can't be done. There isn't enough battery technology out there, 

[bull]

From the category, "government never misses an opportunity to create new taxes," comes this: Since you hippie types are going to be able to avoid fuel taxes with your hippie electric cars, Oregon and Wasington are gearing up to impose a "green" tax on you.


http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=548840

"GREEN FEES: Both the Oregon and Washington legislatures are considering bills imposing fees on electric car owners, moves designed to make up for revenue that's lost when drivers don't pay gas taxes because they don't use gas. The bills have key legislators behind them. In Washington, the transportation committee chairs in both houses of the legislature support a $100-a-year fee, the Seattle Times reports. The Register Guard reports that Oregon's bill, which would charge electric car drivers six cents for every 10 miles they drive, is the product of a task force that has been studying alternatives to the gas tax for years. Virtually every state has struggled to pay for transportation projects in recent years, as more fuel-efficient vehicles have cut into gas tax revenue."