Tell me again why I'm supposed to like electric cars

[Ghoste]

Just got a notice from the electrical utility here in my little part of the world informing me that they are going to be adding just short of 8% each year for the next few years in a row.   I don't expect their initial cost expectatoins to be enough because they rarely are so I imagine there will be other charges tacked on to this.  Now factor that in with the limitations of of these things, throw in a battery pack replacement if I plan to keep it and it doesn't take long to see why I'm not so anxious to get in the electric car line.  Imagine if they sold them at their actual cost and didn't subsidize with the convential auto sales what a deal breaker that would be.  I wonder how many of the greens would even jump on then?

[elacruze]

Battery powered cars are already on the way out. I've already bought stock in hydrogen-cell interests.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/benz-kicks-off-hydrogen-powered-world-tour/article1891890/

[defiance]

My electricity rates just dropped to about 6c per kw/h.  The electric car I just ordered comes with an 8-year warranty on the battery.  My drive is about 50 miles each day, and my second car will be a gas car for the (pretty rare) longer trip.  Altogether my fuel bill for this vehicle will go from about $150 a month to $20 a month.  And I have to get another car anyway (the pickup has just under 300k miles now, and it needs a new head or retirement... and it bluebooks for less than the value of the head, so there you go ).  So, given that I'm going to be getting another car either way, and assuming the car has absolutely $0 value after 10 years, and if I figure the price increase at about $8k at the beginning and $2.5k more at the end (civic would be about $18k, leaf about $26k, resell the civic for about $2500 after 10yrs, resell the leaf for $0 after 10 years), That's WAY more than made up by $3,000 in electricity over the course of the 10 years vs $18,000 in gas over 10 years.  

And that's not even what's important to me - I simply believe very strongly in moving to AMERICAN sources of energy (electricity grid is 80% produced from American sources, and the vast majority of the other 20$ is produced by close allies like Canada and Australia).

Not to mention, the electircal grid offers us the flexibility to adopt new energy technology much more quickly than we could ever do swapping out the power source for our entire transportation infrastructure.


Obviously energy rates vary, so whether it works for you economically or not varies with it.  It works for me.  But the fact that electricity is domestically sourced doesn't change.

[twodko]

The current (no pun intended) gaggle of supposedly "green" electric cars are a huge fraud bought into by sheeple wanting to be "green". Present technology to recycle the batts in these electric cars does not exist. They all sit in storage someplace. For me, the self-righteous, arrogant, "I'm so much smarter than you" attitude of Pious et al owners make electric cars as laughable as they are. I believe hydro fuel cells are a big part of the transportation future. 

[Brock Samson]

I've ridden in two Hybrids now, a Lexus H 250 small SUV, which I drove for a little more than 100 Miles,.. And a Prius my cousin owns and "Loves" - to me they were both rather underwhelming, too high with a center of gravity that left me uneasy and too short a wheelbase,.. that made the pruis which was also suprisingly narrow seem seriously tippy,.. it also creaked a lot. No Thanks...

[defiance]

The current (no pun intended) gaggle of supposedly "green" electric cars are a huge fraud bought into by sheeple wanting to be "green". Present technology to recycle the batts in these electric cars does not exist. They all sit in storage someplace. For me, the self-righteous, arrogant, "I'm so much smarter than you" attitude of Pious et al owners make electric cars as laughable as they are. I believe hydro fuel cells are a big part of the transportation future. 

Really?  I find it rather amusingly hypocritical to hear the insult-laced rant you just directed at people whose perspective you clearly don't understand, while accusing them of having a 'self-righteous, arrogant, "I'm so much smarter than you' attitude"  I suppose you must've missed the irony as you typed it, though.

(as a note, many of us didn't buy electric cars to support an environmental crusade)

[bobs66440]

Re: Tell me again why I'm supposed to like electric cars...Well, one good thing is they make 100% torque from a stop! 

[twodko]

Your response to my post is rife with assumptions. You assume that "I don't understand people whose perspective I clearly don't understand". Sounds like you are insulting me. What I understand is the their attitude. I'd like us all to live in a more environmentally conscious world too but this has nothing to do with these folks' smugness. Enlighten me as to where the "insults" are other than the one you just paid me. My description of this segment of the driving public speaks to their snootiness. Read broad stroke here as "in general", not all electric car owners. Again, you made an assumption. I'm amused that you are amused, I do what I can. Please share with me why I'm a hypocrite for my point of view. Is it because my opinion is not the same as yours therefore I must be a hypocite? Are you "assuming" I don't realise many people buy these cars for the fuel economy, ease of parking, city driving and not as an environmental statement.....sounds like another assumption. Perhaps you're reading far more into my comments than what I intended. By the way, a comment is vastly different from a rant which is described as "speaking loudly and wildly or to scold violently". My post reflects neither. Concerning your "irony" statement, what I said is exactly what I meant, there is no double meaning in my post.        Really!

[twodko]

The current (no pun intended) gaggle of supposedly "green" electric cars are a huge fraud bought into by sheeple wanting to be "green". Present technology to recycle the batts in these electric cars does not exist. They all sit in storage someplace. For me, the self-righteous, arrogant, "I'm so much smarter than you" attitude of Pious et al owners make electric cars as laughable as they are. I believe hydro fuel cells are a big part of the transportation future. 

Really?  I find it rather amusingly hypocritical to hear the insult-laced rant you just directed at people whose perspective you clearly don't understand, while accusing them of having a 'self-righteous, arrogant, "I'm so much smarter than you' attitude"  I suppose you must've missed the irony as you typed it, though.

(as a note, many of us didn't buy electric cars to support an environmental crusade)

Your response to my post is rife with assumptions. You assume that "I don't understand people whose perspective I clearly don't understand". Sounds like you are insulting me. What I understand is the their attitude. I'd like us all to live in a more environmentally conscious world too but this has nothing to do with these folks' smugness. Enlighten me as to where the "insults" are other than the one you just paid me. My description of this segment of the driving public speaks to their snootiness. Read broad stroke here as "in general", not all electric car owners. Again, you made an assumption. I'm amused that you are amused, I do what I can. Please share with me why I'm a hypocrite for my point of view. Is it because my opinion is not the same as yours therefore I must be a hypocite? Are you "assuming" I don't realise many people buy these cars for the fuel economy, ease of parking, city driving and not as an environmental statement.....sounds like another assumption. Perhaps you're reading far more into my comments than what I intended. By the way, a comment is vastly different from a rant which is described as "speaking loudly and wildly or to scold violently". My post reflects neither. Concerning your "irony" statement, what I said is exactly what I meant, there is no double meaning in my post.        Really!

[bull]

Well, if you look at the process of how electricity is generated for the grid in this nation you'll see there's very little "green" associated with it. Between the coal burn pollution in the east and the salmon-killing dams and all the natural resources used on building bird-killing windmills in the west, "clean green" electricity is a self-perpetuating hypocrisy. As for reducing our dependency on foreign oil? Maybe, but then all they have to do is raise the prices to make up for less demand and you'll still be paying as much to run your Pious as you did your 10 mpg Yukon. And don't believe for a second that the prices would drop along with demand. Oil companies don't operate that way. Besides, China will make sure the demand stays as high as possible. The Chinese don't give a rat's a$$ about green energy, environmental regulations and foreign oil. The only reason these cars are being marketed is to give people that false sense of environmental morality they're so desperately seeking.

[A383Wing]

all the little Hybrid cars I have driven are extremely noisy....probably due to lack of sound deadening material in the car...lots of road noise...plus, the hybrid cars don't get that great of gas mileage on the road above 45mph anyway

[bull]

the hybrid cars don't get that great of gas mileage on the road above 45mph anyway

No. They do fine in the city, which is what they are designed for, but when it comes to freeway driving you might as well drive a Dodge truck. Actually, if I wanted a decent all-around car that gets good mileage in every situation I'd buy a European turbo diesel, especially a VW TDI, long before I'd buy an electric car or hybrid. Especially when you consider the initial cost.

[defiance]

Your response to my post is rife with assumptions.

You're right, I did make one false assumption (below)

You assume that "I don't understand people whose perspective I clearly don't understand". Sounds like you are insulting me.

Not an insult, just pointing it out -you implied by the nature of your assertion (see below) that there are motivations for the adoption of electric vehicles that you do not understand.  That assumption may have been flawed - but you go on about your perception of the lack of "greenness" of electric cars and the arrogance of their owners (in spite of the fact that your chances of having actually met one, given the number out there, are pretty close to zero), either ignorant of or ignoring the facts that there are multiple motivations for electrical vehicles, only one of which is environmental impact, and of course ignoring the fact that many people who own electric vehicles are generally nice guys - and ignoring the fact that you've certainly not met enough to make any sort of generalizations such as that.

What I understand is the their attitude. I'd like us all to live in a more environmentally conscious world too but this has nothing to do with these folks' smugness.

You understand the attitudes of electric vehicle owners - how, because you know so many? I see.  And all charger owners are idiot hillbillies, right?  No, of course not.  Stereotypes like that serve no purpose other than fallacious arguments for the lazy haters.  Rather than repeating tired stereotypes, maybe make some effort next time, at least.

Enlighten me as to where the "insults" are other than the one you just paid me.

Um.... ok:
... sheeple ... self-righteous ... arrogant ... "I'm so much smarter than you" attitude ... Pious et al owners make electric cars as laughable ...

My description of this segment of the driving public speaks to their snootiness. Read broad stroke here as "in general", not all electric car owners.

Because you know so many electric car owners, enough to make such a wide assertion about the "general" electric car owner, right?

Again, you made an assumption. I'm amused that you are amused, I do what I can.

I've assumed nothing other than your own statements.

Please share with me why I'm a hypocrite for my point of view. Is it because my opinion is not the same as yours therefore I must be a hypocite?

Simple - when one arrogantly insults a group of people - for being arrogant -  I would consider such to be ironic and amusing.  

Are you "assuming" I don't realise many people buy these cars for the fuel economy, ease of parking, city driving and not as an environmental statement.....sounds like another assumption. Perhaps you're reading far more into my comments than what I intended.

Ah, you're right, you called the car a "huge fraud" based on one questionably accurate "fact", ignoring the landslide of other legitimate reasons for ownership, I assumed you honestly didn't realize that they existed, rather than twisting an argument by means of willful disregard for relevant facts.  Silly me!

[defiance]

Well, if you look at the process of how electricity is generated for the grid in this nation you'll see there's very little "green" associated with it. Between the coal burn pollution in the east and the salmon-killing dams and all the natural resources used on building bird-killing windmills in the west, "clean green" electricity is a self-perpetuating hypocrisy. As for reducing our dependency on foreign oil? Maybe, but then all they have to do is raise the prices to make up for less demand and you'll still be paying as much to run your Pious as you did your 10 mpg Yukon. And don't believe for a second that the prices would drop along with demand. Oil companies don't operate that way. Besides, China will make sure the demand stays as high as possible. The Chinese don't give a rat's a$$ about green energy, environmental regulations and foreign oil. The only reason these cars are being marketed is to give people that false sense of environmental morality they're so desperately seeking.

I've actually seen a study on gas vs electricity - I'll see if I can dig it up.  But anyway, the results (generalizing) were that pollution is different in nature, but similar in overall impact.  More of some, less of another.  I agree that it's a fallacy to adopt electric cars for the purpose of environmentalism, though.

I'm not sure I understand your argument about foreign oil; I'm talking electric, not a prius, so there's no gasoline involved.  And consider - 24kw/h will get about 100 miles in an electric, so just over 4 miles per kw/h.  Efficient gas cars usually get around 35 miles per gallon averaging highway/city.  At $3.00/gallon of gas, electricity would have to go up to almost $0.35 per kw/h to equal the same cost to drive as *current* gas prices, and gas prices are only going up.  In the past few decades, the increases in gas prices have increase *MUCH* more than increases in electricity.  Demand could change that, yes, but face it - a lot of the reason for price shifting of gas has more to do with international relations and the countries we buy gas from.

So yeah, there's no doubt that moving from gas to electricity WILL reduce our foreign dependency.  Will it continue to be cheaper (by more than 5 times!)?  Yes, but probably not nearly so much cheaper - but we'll still be putting that money to U.S. workers rather than Venezuela, middle east, etc.  And I'm all about that.




*EDIT* - still haven't found that pollution study, but found this - my off-the-top-of-my-head estimates for price increases were inaccurate.  Since '73, gasoline has increase 7.7x (39 cents to 2.99), and electricity has increased 4.7x (2.5 cents to 11.93 cents).  So the rate of gasoline increase wasn't as much higher than electricity as I thought, but the point still holds true

[defiance]

(double-post, sorry )

[A383Wing]

I saw the write-up on the new Nissan Leaf..all electric vehicle...gets about 70 miles on a full charge....takes over 8 hours to recharge

not for me

[defiance]

8 hrs at home in your garage, (for $1.50-$3.00 depending on where you live from empty to full - much less if you're not empty) 15 minutes to 80% at an L3 station.  Also, the 8hr charge is first-generation; the standard is set up to support 4hr, but they probably won't have that implemented until 2013 model or so.  Not many of those L3 stations around yet, but since the industry as adopted a standard, they're showing up quite a bit in states where Nissan & GM are selling significant numbers of cars (CA, OR, WA, etc). - for example there are 38 in portland area.
And based on the users at mynissanleaf.com owner forums, 70 miles is a worst-case with the heater (which sucks up a lot of juice) running or something, most users are seeing 85-90 real-world per-charge cost.  

Not saying they'll fit your lifestyle, just saying there's more to it

[aussiemuscle]

 My drive is about 50 miles each day, and my second car will be a gas car for the (pretty rare) longer trip.  

gee, i hope your boss doesn't mind you charging up your car during the day.

the price of electricity in australia is such that petrol currently at $1.20, would have to hit $2 before all-electric becomes more cost effective.

[Cooter]

To all who drive and own Electric Cars.........Thank you, for now that's just that much more fuel for my out dated, gas guzzling, massively overpowered, noisey,rattle trap, 4-speed, big Blocked, Dinosaur....

[68X426]

Yeah I got a Hemi.

[bull]

I'm not sure I understand your argument about foreign oil; I'm talking electric, not a prius, so there's no gasoline involved.  And consider - 24kw/h will get about 100 miles in an electric, so just over 4 miles per kw/h.  Efficient gas cars usually get around 35 miles per gallon averaging highway/city.  At $3.00/gallon of gas, electricity would have to go up to almost $0.35 per kw/h to equal the same cost to drive as *current* gas prices, and gas prices are only going up.  In the past few decades, the increases in gas prices have increase *MUCH* more than increases in electricity.  Demand could change that, yes, but face it - a lot of the reason for price shifting of gas has more to do with international relations and the countries we buy gas from.

So yeah, there's no doubt that moving from gas to electricity WILL reduce our foreign dependency.  Will it continue to be cheaper (by more than 5 times!)?  Yes, but probably not nearly so much cheaper - but we'll still be putting that money to U.S. workers rather than Venezuela, middle east, etc.  And I'm all about that.

As you pointed out, my argument was aimed more at the hybrid market but right now that's the more practical of the two. Electric-only cars are virtually useless outside major metropolitan areas or for people with short commutes. I lumped them together to make my point. Regardless, the main problem with the whole thing is that both hybrids and electrics are being advertised as green, and it's far from the truth.

[RallyeMike]

I, for one would like to see Defiance post impressions of the EV when it comes in with some updates to follow. I'd appreciate the perspective of a real world "car guy" than anyone else.



And now, the top 10 reasons why you should like electric cars:

10. More gas for big blocks.
9. The Tesla
8. You'll be saving the planet so that a much cooler bad-ass disaster (like and alien invasion) can befall it.
7. You can start selling carbon credits to your coworkers for lunch money.
6. It won't go far enough to get you to your Mother-In-Laws house.
5. Two words: Tax Credit.
4. Fart pipes don't work on them.
3. Never having to get within 20 feet of a gas station toilet again.
2. You can sneak in quitely after a late night at the pool hall.
1. Free-willed hippy Chicks dig 'em.

[defiance]

My drive is about 50 miles each day, and my second car will be a gas car for the (pretty rare) longer trip.  

gee, i hope your boss doesn't mind you charging up your car during the day.

the price of electricity in australia is such that petrol currently at $1.20, would have to hit $2 before all-electric becomes more cost effective.

Why would that be a problem?  100-mile range city driving with no hills, and I have a 50 mile round trip - Oh, that probably sounded like one-way, no I meant round trip

Regardless, the main problem with the whole thing is that both hybrids and electrics are being advertised as green, and it's far from the truth.

I see your point there.  I'm in marketing myself -I do research and analysis, not advertising, but I deal with advertising, so I've learned to pretty much universally ignore anything those guys say



And yeah, I'll post impressions after I've had it for a few months.  I definitely don't expect the raw experience of a charger, of course.


Also - funny comment on the in-laws thing - it actually has validity in a weird way for me - My inlaws are actually really cool people and I enjoy hanging around with them. And they live close.  My own family is a bit insane, and I can only handle them in small doses.  Yep, just over 100 miles away

[68charger383]

In CA you like electric cars because:
Gas is $3.25 a gallon,
It helps to preserve mother earth

But in reality, you actually you like them because it allows you to drive in the car pool lane by yourself in rush hour traffic!

Clean Air Stickers High Occupancy Vehicle HOV Lane Usage
A vehicle that meets specified emissions standards may be issued Clean Air Vehicle Stickers that allow the vehicle to be operated by a single occupant in the high occupancy vehicle (HOV) (carpool or diamond) lanes of California's freeways. See Vehicle Code (VC) §§5205.5 and 21655.9.

[TruckDriver]

Until they make a electric car that can go about 300 or 500 miles on one charge so I could use one on long trips, I will never like them. I don't see the point in owning one then, cause right now, all they are good for are commuters to work or the store (or other misc inside the city stuff), and I would only want one for long trips. And I don't wanna HAVE to stop ever 100 miles to recharge the damn car. And before you say, well, a car powered on gas can only go so far on a tank of gas, which is true, but then all you have to do, is stop for 5 minutes to gas up, and go another 300 miles or so before you stop again.