FAST class cars in the nines. Can they still be considered "factory"?

[Ghoste]

I saw a Hemmings Muscle cover a month or so ago proclaiming the FAST cars getting into the nines and the photo depicted the 71 Mustang of Lane Carey.  Looking into a little more I learned that Dave Dudek was first to go into the nines with his 69 Hemi Road Runner.  Dudek has hit 9.98 and Carey is quicker with tehFord so far at 9.84.
Since the NHRA will require a full cage for these guys to run that quick it now becomes just a little more less than "factory appearing".  How much faster can they go and still maintain the stock illusion?  Do you think this completely changes the idea behind the class?

[elacruze]

I think they should ditch NHRA and sanction their own races. Those fast times were set with slicks, too not the stock-appearing tires.

[Ghoste]

Oh?  That is a part of the story that doesn't seem to be commonly known.  Are their bias ply times unchanged from earlier in the year then?

[tan top]

I think they should ditch NHRA and sanction their own races. Those fast times were set with slicks, too not the stock-appearing tires.

never knew that   

[elacruze]

Oh?  That is a part of the story that doesn't seem to be commonly known.  Are their bias ply times unchanged from earlier in the year then?

I have no idea. I just remember looking into the story when I first heard the times.

[Ghoste]

It's an interesting twist for sure.  Two things come to mind, one being that it would mean there are likely several of those cars that could run in the nines on slicks.  Secondly that with the camshaft profiles designed to not overcome stock tires at launch it makes you think.

[Troy]

I'll have to reread the article as I thought they still had to use stock(ish) tires. FAST = "Factory Appearing Stock Tire" right? The key word is "appearing" as those cars have never been anything like the way the factory built them.

Just saw this article:
"Just for clarity’s sake, remember that the basic rules of this series dictate that competitors’ vehicles must look just like they did the day they rolled off the dealer’s lot – and they don’t mean Mr. Norm’s Grand Spaulding Dodge or Don Yenko’s Chevy store. The cars are to be pattered after factory-specified combinations, and to that end they are to use the properly coded castings and associated parts; there’s also the bit about running only a stock-type tire."
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/10/06/f-a-s-t-racers-break-9-second-barrier/

Lane Carey's car specs state "G60x15 polyglas" tires.
http://www.fastraces.org/fastraces/fastraces.nsf/822dcaaaa26c6da985256dd80023623d/c853cb964fe4c2ce852576890014cd47!OpenDocument

Dave Dudek's car specs state "Firestone G70-15 Redline" tires.
http://www.fastraces.org/fastraces/fastraces.nsf/822dcaaaa26c6da985256dd80023623d/9c61dd50966f3388852572a80066c6fa!OpenDocument

You can see them both clearly in the pictures in the first article.

Troy

[Ghoste]

But that would only be for the actual competition part, were those 9 second times just runs that were made on slicks for a "lets see"?

[Troy]

I don't see how it can be. The FAST web site proudly announces Lane Carey as the "F.A.S.T. ET & MPH Record Holder 9.84 @ 139.82" which would mean he had to set the time according to the class rules right?

From the first article again:
"What can’t be seen is fair game, so stroker cranks, meticulously ported heads and manifolds and big compression ratios are the order of the day, but all that power still has to be put to good use through a relatively puny DOT-legal footprint. It’s a challenge that these guys have obviously taken quite seriously."

From the rule book:

14.00 TIRES AND WHEELS AND BRAKES
14.01 Wheels must be correct*, including correct* diameter, width and material.
Note: Width may be upgraded to a maximum of 6”, if the correct* wheel is narrower than that. Reproduction wheels OK.
14.02 All 4 wheels and tires must be same size.
Exception: Mopar TA Challenger came from factory with G-60’s on rear and F-60’s on front.
14.03 Original equipment reproduction bias-ply tires only. No soft compound tires of any kind are allowed. Retread tires are not allowed. Any car is allowed to upgrade to a maximum size tire of G-70 of the correct* wheel diameter. All cars that were originally available with a 60 series tire can upgrade to a maximum size of G-60 tire of the correct* wheel diameter.

Another article:
"Worst off, the tires must be conducive to how they came from the dealership; meaning narrow, DOT-approved rubber. No slicks here."
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/f-a-s-t-drag-racers-break-into-the-9%E2%80%99s/

Troy

[Mike DC]

               
I actually think it would be cooler if they didn't demand 100% stock appearances.  It seems like the spirit of the thing would be better served with "day two" cars rather than the current "right off the dealership truck" appearance they have now.  

Those factory Hemi & Yenko cars were not originally ordered with dog-dish wheels & skinny tires because the buyer planned to drive it that way.  Same with stuff like iron exhaust manifolds on the 440/6 or Hemi motors, that was a formality.  The 100% stock apperance that we worship today is not an accurate representation of how you would have expected to find a "stock" musclecar on the street back in the day.    

 

[Ghoste]

That sort of plays into my question.  If we allow full cages as still being factory appearing, how crazy would things get with a day two allowance?

[Mike DC]

                                  
I realize it would be a bit more of a can of worms than the current situation.  But I don't see the big deal with saying "period-correct wheels/tires, tube headers, and carb changes are allowed."  



As for rollcage specs that is a different can of worms.  One possibility would be to convert the whole racing class to a 1/8th mile operation.  Or even just cut it down to 1000 feet.  

Yes, I know a lot of people would scream bloody murder at the idea of 1/8th.  But the fact is the required safety mods are going to continue to push the cars farther away from stock as time goes by.  Funnycar size rollcages, rear end parachutes . . .

[Ghoste]

Seeing as how the original intent of the class was as stock as possible musclecars I'd say they've already gone past the original idea so maybe day two is the next. logical step  For me personally they are becoming less interesting now as it is extremely obvious they are full out drag cars.  The 1/8 mile thing does nothing for me at all either but thats just me.
I guess it's happened before though.  Look at NMCA's attempt to create a stock class to put the bs to rest on various musclecars.  Hell, even the NHRA's own Stock Eliminator led to Super Stock and Modified Production and Pro Stock and even Funny Car. 

[Mike DC]

       
If I was making the rules for the FAST series I might mess around with the rollcage specs some.  I think the silohouettes of the stock cars could be maintained better than the current standard rollcage guidlelines allow without compromising safety too much.  For example they could require additional tube diameter & thickness in certain places instead of demanding so many tubes.
   

[Ghoste]

I don't think the series can do much about it can they?  Aren't those rules mandated by the NHRA sanctioned tracks they run on?

[firefighter3931]

Those 9 second ET's were indeed using bias ply tires which makes the feat all the more amazing. 

Make no mistake, these are purpose built racecars wrapped up in a plain vanilla wrapper. The more competitive cars are pushing 16:1 compression and run on 118+ octane fuel. 


Ron

[Ghoste]

How do you feel about a "day two" modified look Ron?

[firefighter3931]

How do you feel about a "day two" modified look Ron?

I'm a big fan of Day 2....stock is boring. 

Not to take anything away from the FAST cars because they are amazing but in reality they are not what they appear to be. I'm sure none of these get driven much on the street if at all...Big roller cams, insane valvespring pressures and super high compression are not conducive to cruising. 


Ron

[Ghoste]

I can't imagine any of them get driven on the street.  Possibly the slower ones but not cars like Dudeks.  My issue with the day two thing is that opens up the door for hood scoops, rear wings and any wheel/tire combo.  Yes, the cars will become much quicker but it will no longer be FASTanymore, it'll just be a similar appearing variation of NMCA.

[Cooter]

And just think, somewhere, there's a newbie buying a'69 Roadrunner and swears it'll run 9's because Dave dudek's does...




FAST has become like the rest of the Pro. Drag Racing world has become..Corperate monsters with plenty money..Afterall, nobody wants to see a "true" factory 1970 Challenger run in the high 12's with a little tuning now do they?

[Ghoste]

The Pure Stock Musclecar drags are supposed to be like that but who knows?

[BSB67]

I can't imagine any of them get driven on the street.  Possibly the slower ones but not cars like Dudeks.  My issue with the day two thing is that opens up the door for hood scoops, rear wings and any wheel/tire combo.  Yes, the cars will become much quicker but it will no longer be FASTanymore, it'll just be a similar appearing variation of NMCA.

Exactly.  It'll start looking like bracket racing.  FAST seems to have a lot of following, alter it too much, I'll bet the popularity falls off.  There are only a couple of cars at the 9 sec level.  Most everyone else is at the high 10 and 11 sec. et level.  The cams, relative to factory specs, are obviously big, but not big relative to those in the racing world.  Compression is very high.  They spend a lot of time and effort and money to keep the look of stockish while being racing thoroughbreds.  There was talk about the cage and how that changes things a bit and if something should be done/changed.  As they get faster, it does seem to get further away from the reality of those that follow it.  I think that it is important for those that follow it to be able to relate to it.  

I think if they simply required them to run pump gas, and drive them to the track, it would slow them down, keep the competition good, and the interest up.

[Ghoste]

What was that series about 15 years or so ago that tried that?  They had to have functioning lights and be streetable but after the racers complained streetable changed to something like being able to drive to the end of the track and back at an idle without overheating.  They started out looking stock and before long everyone had a cowl induction scoop and nitrous.  It died when it got too far from its roots and no one could afford it but the top few.

[maxwellwedge]

Is there still a series that demands bone stock using only all your super-tuning tweaks such as timing, jetting, air pressure etc.? The stuff the mags did back in the 60's and early 70's on a road test.

[elacruze]

Those 9 second ET's were indeed using bias ply tires which makes the feat all the more amazing. 

Make no mistake, these are purpose built racecars wrapped up in a plain vanilla wrapper. The more competitive cars are pushing 16:1 compression and run on 118+ octane fuel. 


Ron

I swear, I'm going to get tested for Alzheimer's.