FAST class cars in the nines. Can they still be considered "factory"?

[Ghoste]

I saw a Hemmings Muscle cover a month or so ago proclaiming the FAST cars getting into the nines and the photo depicted the 71 Mustang of Lane Carey.  Looking into a little more I learned that Dave Dudek was first to go into the nines with his 69 Hemi Road Runner.  Dudek has hit 9.98 and Carey is quicker with tehFord so far at 9.84.
Since the NHRA will require a full cage for these guys to run that quick it now becomes just a little more less than "factory appearing".  How much faster can they go and still maintain the stock illusion?  Do you think this completely changes the idea behind the class?

[elacruze]

I think they should ditch NHRA and sanction their own races. Those fast times were set with slicks, too not the stock-appearing tires.

[Ghoste]

Oh?  That is a part of the story that doesn't seem to be commonly known.  Are their bias ply times unchanged from earlier in the year then?

[tan top]

I think they should ditch NHRA and sanction their own races. Those fast times were set with slicks, too not the stock-appearing tires.

never knew that   

[elacruze]

Oh?  That is a part of the story that doesn't seem to be commonly known.  Are their bias ply times unchanged from earlier in the year then?

I have no idea. I just remember looking into the story when I first heard the times.

[Ghoste]

It's an interesting twist for sure.  Two things come to mind, one being that it would mean there are likely several of those cars that could run in the nines on slicks.  Secondly that with the camshaft profiles designed to not overcome stock tires at launch it makes you think.

[Troy]

I'll have to reread the article as I thought they still had to use stock(ish) tires. FAST = "Factory Appearing Stock Tire" right? The key word is "appearing" as those cars have never been anything like the way the factory built them.

Just saw this article:
"Just for clarity’s sake, remember that the basic rules of this series dictate that competitors’ vehicles must look just like they did the day they rolled off the dealer’s lot – and they don’t mean Mr. Norm’s Grand Spaulding Dodge or Don Yenko’s Chevy store. The cars are to be pattered after factory-specified combinations, and to that end they are to use the properly coded castings and associated parts; there’s also the bit about running only a stock-type tire."
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/10/06/f-a-s-t-racers-break-9-second-barrier/

Lane Carey's car specs state "G60x15 polyglas" tires.
http://www.fastraces.org/fastraces/fastraces.nsf/822dcaaaa26c6da985256dd80023623d/c853cb964fe4c2ce852576890014cd47!OpenDocument

Dave Dudek's car specs state "Firestone G70-15 Redline" tires.
http://www.fastraces.org/fastraces/fastraces.nsf/822dcaaaa26c6da985256dd80023623d/9c61dd50966f3388852572a80066c6fa!OpenDocument

You can see them both clearly in the pictures in the first article.

Troy

[Ghoste]

But that would only be for the actual competition part, were those 9 second times just runs that were made on slicks for a "lets see"?

[Troy]

I don't see how it can be. The FAST web site proudly announces Lane Carey as the "F.A.S.T. ET & MPH Record Holder 9.84 @ 139.82" which would mean he had to set the time according to the class rules right?

From the first article again:
"What can’t be seen is fair game, so stroker cranks, meticulously ported heads and manifolds and big compression ratios are the order of the day, but all that power still has to be put to good use through a relatively puny DOT-legal footprint. It’s a challenge that these guys have obviously taken quite seriously."

From the rule book:

14.00 TIRES AND WHEELS AND BRAKES
14.01 Wheels must be correct*, including correct* diameter, width and material.
Note: Width may be upgraded to a maximum of 6”, if the correct* wheel is narrower than that. Reproduction wheels OK.
14.02 All 4 wheels and tires must be same size.
Exception: Mopar TA Challenger came from factory with G-60’s on rear and F-60’s on front.
14.03 Original equipment reproduction bias-ply tires only. No soft compound tires of any kind are allowed. Retread tires are not allowed. Any car is allowed to upgrade to a maximum size tire of G-70 of the correct* wheel diameter. All cars that were originally available with a 60 series tire can upgrade to a maximum size of G-60 tire of the correct* wheel diameter.

Another article:
"Worst off, the tires must be conducive to how they came from the dealership; meaning narrow, DOT-approved rubber. No slicks here."
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/f-a-s-t-drag-racers-break-into-the-9%E2%80%99s/

Troy

[Mike DC]

               
I actually think it would be cooler if they didn't demand 100% stock appearances.  It seems like the spirit of the thing would be better served with "day two" cars rather than the current "right off the dealership truck" appearance they have now.  

Those factory Hemi & Yenko cars were not originally ordered with dog-dish wheels & skinny tires because the buyer planned to drive it that way.  Same with stuff like iron exhaust manifolds on the 440/6 or Hemi motors, that was a formality.  The 100% stock apperance that we worship today is not an accurate representation of how you would have expected to find a "stock" musclecar on the street back in the day.    

 

[Ghoste]

That sort of plays into my question.  If we allow full cages as still being factory appearing, how crazy would things get with a day two allowance?

[Mike DC]

                                  
I realize it would be a bit more of a can of worms than the current situation.  But I don't see the big deal with saying "period-correct wheels/tires, tube headers, and carb changes are allowed."  



As for rollcage specs that is a different can of worms.  One possibility would be to convert the whole racing class to a 1/8th mile operation.  Or even just cut it down to 1000 feet.  

Yes, I know a lot of people would scream bloody murder at the idea of 1/8th.  But the fact is the required safety mods are going to continue to push the cars farther away from stock as time goes by.  Funnycar size rollcages, rear end parachutes . . .

[Ghoste]

Seeing as how the original intent of the class was as stock as possible musclecars I'd say they've already gone past the original idea so maybe day two is the next. logical step  For me personally they are becoming less interesting now as it is extremely obvious they are full out drag cars.  The 1/8 mile thing does nothing for me at all either but thats just me.
I guess it's happened before though.  Look at NMCA's attempt to create a stock class to put the bs to rest on various musclecars.  Hell, even the NHRA's own Stock Eliminator led to Super Stock and Modified Production and Pro Stock and even Funny Car. 

[Mike DC]

       
If I was making the rules for the FAST series I might mess around with the rollcage specs some.  I think the silohouettes of the stock cars could be maintained better than the current standard rollcage guidlelines allow without compromising safety too much.  For example they could require additional tube diameter & thickness in certain places instead of demanding so many tubes.
   

[Ghoste]

I don't think the series can do much about it can they?  Aren't those rules mandated by the NHRA sanctioned tracks they run on?

[firefighter3931]

Those 9 second ET's were indeed using bias ply tires which makes the feat all the more amazing. 

Make no mistake, these are purpose built racecars wrapped up in a plain vanilla wrapper. The more competitive cars are pushing 16:1 compression and run on 118+ octane fuel. 


Ron

[Ghoste]

How do you feel about a "day two" modified look Ron?

[firefighter3931]

How do you feel about a "day two" modified look Ron?

I'm a big fan of Day 2....stock is boring. 

Not to take anything away from the FAST cars because they are amazing but in reality they are not what they appear to be. I'm sure none of these get driven much on the street if at all...Big roller cams, insane valvespring pressures and super high compression are not conducive to cruising. 


Ron

[Ghoste]

I can't imagine any of them get driven on the street.  Possibly the slower ones but not cars like Dudeks.  My issue with the day two thing is that opens up the door for hood scoops, rear wings and any wheel/tire combo.  Yes, the cars will become much quicker but it will no longer be FASTanymore, it'll just be a similar appearing variation of NMCA.

[Cooter]

And just think, somewhere, there's a newbie buying a'69 Roadrunner and swears it'll run 9's because Dave dudek's does...




FAST has become like the rest of the Pro. Drag Racing world has become..Corperate monsters with plenty money..Afterall, nobody wants to see a "true" factory 1970 Challenger run in the high 12's with a little tuning now do they?

[Ghoste]

The Pure Stock Musclecar drags are supposed to be like that but who knows?

[BSB67]

I can't imagine any of them get driven on the street.  Possibly the slower ones but not cars like Dudeks.  My issue with the day two thing is that opens up the door for hood scoops, rear wings and any wheel/tire combo.  Yes, the cars will become much quicker but it will no longer be FASTanymore, it'll just be a similar appearing variation of NMCA.

Exactly.  It'll start looking like bracket racing.  FAST seems to have a lot of following, alter it too much, I'll bet the popularity falls off.  There are only a couple of cars at the 9 sec level.  Most everyone else is at the high 10 and 11 sec. et level.  The cams, relative to factory specs, are obviously big, but not big relative to those in the racing world.  Compression is very high.  They spend a lot of time and effort and money to keep the look of stockish while being racing thoroughbreds.  There was talk about the cage and how that changes things a bit and if something should be done/changed.  As they get faster, it does seem to get further away from the reality of those that follow it.  I think that it is important for those that follow it to be able to relate to it.  

I think if they simply required them to run pump gas, and drive them to the track, it would slow them down, keep the competition good, and the interest up.

[Ghoste]

What was that series about 15 years or so ago that tried that?  They had to have functioning lights and be streetable but after the racers complained streetable changed to something like being able to drive to the end of the track and back at an idle without overheating.  They started out looking stock and before long everyone had a cowl induction scoop and nitrous.  It died when it got too far from its roots and no one could afford it but the top few.

[maxwellwedge]

Is there still a series that demands bone stock using only all your super-tuning tweaks such as timing, jetting, air pressure etc.? The stuff the mags did back in the 60's and early 70's on a road test.

[elacruze]

Those 9 second ET's were indeed using bias ply tires which makes the feat all the more amazing. 

Make no mistake, these are purpose built racecars wrapped up in a plain vanilla wrapper. The more competitive cars are pushing 16:1 compression and run on 118+ octane fuel. 


Ron

I swear, I'm going to get tested for Alzheimer's.

[Ghoste]

Is there still a series that demands bone stock using only all your super-tuning tweaks such as timing, jetting, air pressure etc.? The stuff the mags did back in the 60's and early 70's on a road test.

That would be the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags but I don't know if it's an actual series or just an annual event at Martin, Michigan.

[maxwellwedge]

I'm going to the one at Cayuga in September....going to tune up one of the A12's and see if I can get near Ronnie's E.T.          

[Mike DC]

                      

I can't imagine any of them get driven on the street.  Possibly the slower ones but not cars like Dudeks.  My issue with the day two thing is that opens up the door for hood scoops, rear wings and any wheel/tire combo.  Yes, the cars will become much quicker but it will no longer be FASTanymore, it'll just be a similar appearing variation of NMCA.

My idea of a "day two" class would not include things like hood scoops or giant rear tires or big visible suspension changes.  

I'm picturing just getting rid of the blatantly out-of-place stuff that even the casual 60s street racer probably didn't keep.  The point is still to line up basically stock looking musclecars that could be within a couple days of leaving the dealership.  I don't think it would be too hard for people to come to some agreement on what fits that category and what does not.  (I think "day three" is when the can of worms really starts.)    

I think if they simply required them to run pump gas, and drive them to the track, it would slow them down, keep the competition good, and the interest up.

I think the only problem that ANY of these "stock" classes in the last 15 years have ever had is not demanding enough street driving.  A 25-mile cruise to prove streetability is a joke IMHO.  Let's talk about at least 100 miles, driven nonstop, at the beginning of every single race weekend, in whatever climate/weather & road conditions happen to be present at the time.  

That would weed out the posers from the real street cars in a big hurry.  The first few months would see a lot of competitors failing the cruise, but in the long run the point is not really to keep forcing racers to do things.  The point is to force everyone to spend enough time in the cars on the road that they start WANTING to get rid of the most annoying uncomfortable thing about the cars on their own.    

Pump gas?  IMHO that should not even be a question for a streetable class.  Let 'em run 93 octane on the track, tops.

[Ghoste]

Hmm, some very interesting points my friend.

[firefighter3931]

I fall into the "pump gas" category. Mine was built to be streetable (cruise 100 miles easily) and pull into any gas station for fuel while retaining the stock interior and no body modifications (Tubs, scoops etc...)

The only interior mods are an aftermarket shifter, steering wheel, some extra guages, 8pt Rollbar and 5pt harness. The car still retains a funtional heater box and power steering. 

It does have a set of Cal Tracs and some MT Drag Radials but it all fits under the factory wheel wells. 

Propelling a 4100lb raceweight B-body into the 10's on pump gas (naturally aspirated) is no easy feat....the weight is an ET/MPH Killer ! 


Ron

[Troy]

There's an event put on by Hot Rod that involves a cross-country drive to several tracks for a day of racing at each ("Fastest Street Car"?). I believe several competitors run in the 6 second range in the 1/4. Sure, you and I may not consider a car like that to be streetable but you have to give credit to someone who can deal with those conditions for a few thousand miles - and have a car that can finish! Just having a road driving requirement isn't going to solve anything.

Troy

[firefighter3931]

There's an event put on by Hot Rod that involves a cross-country drive to several tracks for a day of racing at each ("Fastest Street Car"?). I believe several competitors run in the 6 second range in the 1/4. Sure, you and I may not consider a car like that to be streetable but you have to give credit to someone who can deal with those conditions for a few thousand miles - and have a car that can finish! Just having a road driving requirement isn't going to solve anything.

Troy

That's a cool event ; Hot Rod Drag Week  The big dogs are serious players with the fastest being a high 6 second pass. These are hard core power adder cars...the faster ones being twin turbo. Very impressive 

At some point i'd like to run the BP in drag week. They have several classes and mine could work in the street car class as well as Big Block Naturally Aspirated. The car is too heavy to be really competitive but it would be fun to do none the less. 

Last year the racing was in the Ohio, Pa, MI & Indiana area....this year it's too far south for me Tx, Ok, Ks 

Maybe next year ? 



Ron

[Ghoste]

What would be the typical 6 second cars?  Fox body Mustang with lightweight everything and lots of nitrous?

[Cooter]

What would be the typical 6 second cars?  Fox body Mustang with lightweight everything and lots of nitrous?

Big inch engines (650-830 C.I.), "big Chief"/"Pontiac"/"Big Duke" heads, $100K engines in 2500 LB Race cars. Sure, they have turn signals and wipers, but they are NOT street cars. Pass Virginia State inspection, then you have yourself a "Street car"...

[firefighter3931]

What would be the typical 6 second cars?  Fox body Mustang with lightweight everything and lots of nitrous?

Larson has a 66 Nova with a lenco trans and twin turbo 565 making 2000+HP.....that's quite the street car ! 

http://www.streetfire.net/video/larry-larsons-drag-week-winning-nova-runs-693-in_723186.htm

What would be the typical 6 second cars?  Fox body Mustang with lightweight everything and lots of nitrous?

Big inch engines (650-830 C.I.), "big Chief"/"Pontiac"/"Big Duke" heads, $100K engines in 2500 LB Race cars. Sure, they have turn signals and wipers, but they are NOT street cars. Pass Virginia State inspection, then you have yourself a "Street car"...

From what i remember Va state inspection is strict....don't think this car would pass ? 



Ron

[Cooter]

I did see a guy once at an NMCA meet with these words across his rear window..."Virginia State legal"..He of course wasn't the quickest, but I'd have voted him in for trying to do the impossible and run a Quick 16 car that is compliant with the states Inspection saftey laws..Pro Drag Racing is no different than NASCAR racing..Save for the fact that if my Drag car isn't as quick as your car, I can't simply run you off the track and still call it "Rubbing is racing"....It all boils down to a bunch of spoiled guys with huge sponsors, figuring out a better way of cheating...

[elacruze]

I did see a guy once at an NMCA meet with these words across his rear window..."Virginia State legal"..He of course wasn't the quickest, but I'd have voted him in for trying to do the impossible and run a Quick 16 car that is compliant with the states Inspection saftey laws..Pro Drag Racing is no different than NASCAR racing..Save for the fact that if my Drag car isn't as quick as your car, I can't simply run you off the track and still call it "Rubbing is racing"....It all boils down to a bunch of spoiled guys with huge sponsors, figuring out a better way of cheating...

[Ghoste]

I don't draw a lot of parallels between the two but thats just me.

[694spdRT]

These problems always happen with "stock" competition. It happened in the truck pulling around here 15 years ago. The Chevy guys were tired of being beat by my friend's 440 Dodge year after year so it was voted to allow aftermarket intakes, headers, and bigger cubes. It priced a lot of the club members out of it and then ended up being nothing more than a Super Stock class. The winners were the ones who had the most money because everything else had to be built to handle the power. No more stock axles, transmissions, etc. as they just broke. Not really what a stock class is about IMO.

The main problem I see with "day two" rules is who actually would have an engine anywhere close to what these boys are running back then? I am not into the specifics of these engines but how many of the parts being used were even available in the late 60's or early '70's? Do you then use the race tires available back then, are they even made?

FWIW: I am probably in the minority but, I thought "FAST" was pretty cool way back when they were turning 11's in fairly stock trim. Now they are in the 9's and it is so unrealistic that I don't really care anymore.

[Ghoste]

I'm part of the same minority.  The further they got from stock the less it fascinated me.  I still enjoyed it, a race is a race after all, but it amazed me less.  If they drift awat from stock appearing then it gets even more like any other race series.

[694spdRT]

Is the King of Street class still around? I saw them run at the Nats for a few years.

[Ghoste]

Don't think so.  That's the one I was thinking of earlier when I was talking about how they kept watering it down from the original intent and making it easier to run full on drag cars.

[Cooter]

These problems always happen with "stock" competition. It happened in the truck pulling around here 15 years ago. The Chevy guys were tired of being beat by my friend's 440 Dodge year after year so it was voted to allow aftermarket intakes, headers, and bigger cubes. It priced a lot of the club members out of it and then ended up being nothing more than a Super Stock class. The winners were the ones who had the most money because everything else had to be built to handle the power. No more stock axles, transmissions, etc. as they just broke. Not really what a stock class is about IMO.

The main problem I see with "day two" rules is who actually would have an engine anywhere close to what these boys are running back then? I am not into the specifics of these engines but how many of the parts being used were even available in the late 60's or early '70's? Do you then use the race tires available back then, are they even made?

FWIW: I am probably in the minority but, I thought "FAST" was pretty cool way back when they were turning 11's in fairly stock trim. Now they are in the 9's and it is so unrealistic that I don't really care anymore.

Amen Brother...It was "Believable" when they were running times that these cars even with factory backed teams , were running..Now it seems, they are nothing more than pure D Super pro cars with factory paint jobs and black "crinkle" paint on the Hemi Valve covers...Not Believable anymore...I mean, if a "stock" Dodge Challenger in 1970 could theoretically run 9's in the 1/4 mile, then why the did Ronnie Sox and Dick landy spend so much time putting all that "Race" stuff in and under them? Hell, FAST has proven that a "Factory" 1969 RoadRunner can run deep in the tens with stock tires....

[Cooter]

We got one of those "King-of-street" guys here runs a black '65 Barracuda, with a Small Block. Ain't one damn thing on that car "Stock" or "Street"..Dude popped about about a $10K small block on the dyno simply revving on it..Turned around and looked at everybody and said "Oh well, time to start over"..He got in my sh*t one night at a cruise night, and because he had the faster car, acted like I needed to "Bow" to his KOS street fame or something... Dudes a piece of work. Once made the comment at a cruise night said a guy once told him "you know the faster you go, the bigger A**hole your gonna be right?"

He replies "Then I'm going out to be the biggest A**hole round these parts"...He was correct...He aimed and made it...Most of the KOS guys are cool...I'm NOT saying they are all like this guy, but I'm actually Ashamed to have him represent VA. in the meets, in a Mopar...Most always ask me at Cruise night, "Hell, Cooter, he's in a Mopar, I figured he was cool with 'ya"...Mopar Or not, this guys an a**...

[Ghoste]

I didn't even think they were still around.  So how big is his cowl induction hood scoop?

[Cooter]

I didn't even think they were still around.  So how big is his cowl induction hood scoop?

If your directing this at my post, it's huge, just like mine. I figure why fight for what's correct, when it's easier to just join 'em.

Told me one night he was running in the 8's 1/4 mile with nothing more than SS springs...I simply walked over to where he had that thing parked and knelt down, looked under it, and remarked. "Dang, I never knew Chrysler offered Barracuda's with the frame rails moved inward like this. They even offered them with coil overs and four link bars too?" SS Springs MY a**...

[Ghoste]

Not directed at you personally but at the KOS series in general.  I will take the moment though to go on record and say that I think they look like mushy dog turds on anything but Chevy's and the taller they are the more I typically don't like them.  Sorry man, we all get an opinion and that one was mine.

[Cooter]

No problem Ghoste, Most Mopar People don't like the "Chevy" style scoops either. IMO, Why should Chevy be the only ones to benefit from the Cowl Induction, just because they were the only ones to offer it from the factory? I mean, that's like a buddy of mine was barking about my 5-speed T-5 from a late model Mustang GT being a "Ford Trans in a Mopar"...It's NOT a ford trans, it's a Borg Warner Trans..It just happened to be installed Factory in a Ford. I guess by that reasoning, then the Super T-10, and I think the T-85 3-speed that were installed in some early Chrysler's were Ford trans? Just like the "GM 1 Wire" Alt. on a Mopar..It's a Delco Remy part...Yet, an IMPORT, Nippendenso alt. off a late model Mopar is OK? Hmmmm...

[Ghoste]

A tangent, but I can tell you MY reasons for not liking it.  First off is styling, it seems to fit better with the cars it was styled to in the first place.  Second, I'm not sure it's the most efficient fresh air system available but it seemed to turn up in that KOS series as some kind of way to have a stealthy looking scoop on cars that didn't originally have one (and then everyone made them ten inches tall)  I don't know, to each their own and I certainly have no intention of ever starting an anti-cowl induction club but I also can't see myself ever using one.  They're just a big lump on the hood to me.  Like I said though, it's only a personal opinion.

[gtx6970]

To me walking up to a legal fast class car not knowing what it is ,,,, is part of the appeal.
To look at it thinking how nice it is as a stock restoration. YET, knowing it will kick the pants off of most anything it comes up against I think  is part of it's persona.

Yea, I know at the speeds these car are attaining, street driving is for the most part, non-existant .

BUT,,,,,,When they start adding roll bars and slicks ( to me ) they no longer have the same appeal and to me are just race  cars. and I lose interest fast.