2 Inch or 2 1/8 or Headers for 505 ci street/strip build 10:6 to 1 compression?

[1Bad70Charger]

As I type I am having a 505 ci 440 Stroker being built 10:5 to 10: 8 to 1 compression, with out of the box Eddy 84 cc new alum. heads, for my 1969 Road Runner.

I will be running a Holley HP 1000 Carb, Holley Street Dominator intake, and an aggressive  Comp solid flat tappet cam with specs of:  256/266, .550/.570 lift, on a 108 lsa +3, all at .050.


Car will be used mostly as an asphalt burning torque monster and will see some limited action on the drag strip (to try to run-off some high 10 second time slips).

Will also be running an aggressive dynamic 9.5 street/strip converter that will flash up to around 4500, with 3 inch exhaust all the way back, and 3.91 gears.

I have upgraded everything in my new build but the last piece of the puzzle is my headers. I know what my engine builder recommends but its my personality to always do my own research, so those with real world knowledge here, the experts, please let me know if I should go with

2 inch or 2 1/8 Hooker Headers, and can you confirm the Hookers Headers are compatible with the angled plugs on my Eddy Alum Heads and if they are not, what is the next best value header to use?
I know TTI headers are great but this project not surprisingly ended up being twice as much that I had originally intended to spend (which is usually the case)

Also, since the out of the box Eddy Heads will be a bottle neck on the 505 stroker engine for my car which is I already have Hedman (sp?) 1 3/4 headers for, should I just save the $ and use those headers for now (I do believe they have 3 inch collectors) as maybe we are only talking 15 to 20 HP if i just stick with the smaller Hedman Headers (on what primarily is a street car)?


Thanks in advance gentleman.  

[dstryr]

I think OOTB Eddy heads will be the bottleneck on that motor. 2" will probably be sufficient.  FWIW, I installed Doug's D452s on my Stealth headed 440, fit great with no clearancing but I can speak to how they fit on angled plug heads. 

[1Bad70Charger]

I think OOTB Eddy heads will be the bottleneck on that motor. 2" will probably be sufficient.  FWIW, I installed Doug's D452s on my Stealth headed 440, fit great with no clearancing but I can speak to how they fit on angled plug heads.  

I agree, I do realize I would be making A LOT more power with different heads like Indy EZs, EZ 1s, etc., etc., but I am stuck with the Eddys and plan on keeping them for now, and I appreciate your answer based on my build.

Also, since the out of the box Eddy Heads will be a bottle neck on the 505 stroker engine and I already have Hedman (sp?) 1 3/4 headers, should I just save the $ and use those headers for now (I do believe they have 3 inch collectors) as maybe we are only talking 15 to 20 HP if i just stick with the smaller Hedman Headers (on what primarily is a street car)?

[1Bad70Charger]

 Keep my 1 3/4 headers, or worth the $500 to upgrade to 2 inch or 2 1/8 Headers (and yes I am on a budget but don't want my current headers to choke my new engine build so will do what I have to do)?  

[six-tee-nine]

Maybe with the smaller primaries you might loose some horses, but would'nt the low end powerband benefit from that? I thought larger tubes result in higher numbers but looses low end power.

[elacruze]

I think the consensus is that for street-driven 500" motors, 1-3/4" primaries work better, and sometimes actually make more power than 2". I've been fighting in my head over this for some time, I have 2" Hooker SC headers and I don't want to invest the cash for a new set of TTI's. I know the 2" headers worked marvelously on my iron-head 440, but I never had 1-3/4" on it so...?

If I had no headers at all, I'd go with the 1-3/4".

[firefighter3931]

2 inch or 2 1/8 Hooker Headers, and can you confirm the Hookers Headers are compatible with the angled plugs on my Eddy Alum Heads and if they are not, what is the next best value header to use?
I know TTI headers are great but this project not surprisingly ended up being twice as much that I had originally intended to spend (which is usually the case)

A 1.75 in header will be too small for a stroker. You will limit top end power so if you're looking to maximize the combination that is not the right choice. Header tube diameter & length effectively tune the engine's powerband. Of course the displacement comes into play ; big engine + small header =  lower peak power.

With the right cam and combination of compression, intake manifold, carb the Eddy RPM 500in build will still make power to 6000 rpm with the right sized header. Put too small a header on it and the power will nose over early. This one mismatched component can handicap the entire build. 

The best choice is a 2 x 3.5in header with 3in exhaust, inmo.

The headers that work and fit well with the Eddy heads are TTI & Dougs. The Hookers can be made to fit  but you won't be happy with the results. Beating up a new set of headers is no fun. 

If you don't want to spring for a set of TTI's these are your next best option :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DOU-D452/



Ron

[elacruze]

2 inch or 2 1/8 Hooker Headers, and can you confirm the Hookers Headers are compatible with the angled plugs on my Eddy Alum Heads and if they are not, what is the next best value header to use?
I know TTI headers are great but this project not surprisingly ended up being twice as much that I had originally intended to spend (which is usually the case)

A 1.75 in header will be too small for a stroker. You will limit top end power so if you're looking to maximize the combination that is not the right choice. Header tube diameter & length effectively tune the engine's powerband. Of course the displacement comes into play ; big engine + small header =  lower peak power.

With the right cam and combination of compression, intake manifold, carb the Eddy RPM 500in build will still make power to 6000 rpm with the right sized header. Put too small a header on it and the power will nose over early. This one mismatched component can handicap the entire build.  

The best choice is a 2 x 3.5in header with 3in exhaust, inmo.

The headers that work and fit well with the Eddy heads are TTI & Dougs. The Hookers can be made to fit   but you won't be happy with the results. Beating up a new set of headers is no fun.  

If you don't want to spring for a set of TTI's these are your next best option :

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DOU-D452/



Ron

I guess my memory ain't so good.
That #1 plug may be a no-go with the 2" Hookers...I'm waiting for my super-short $12 spark plug to test-fit.
Fortunately, I took the hammer to these headers nearly 30 years ago...

[1Bad70Charger]

Thank you Ron and everyone else who has responded! 

[firefighter3931]

Eric, the 2in Supercomps can be made to work but with the angled plugs your boot clearance is tight on some of the cylinders. A buddy runs those headers with a set of angled plug aluminum "BullDog" heads and we had to make a set of custom wires with heat shields for that application. He will eventually upgrade to a set of TTI's when funds permit.  


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Thank you Ron and everyone else who has responded! 

You're welcome Jim 

Definately go with the 2x3.5 Dougs or TTi's. Should you decide to swap to an Indy EZ head in the future, your existing exhaust will bolt right up. 

I have the 2x3.5 TTI's on mine with the 572 and Indy EZ295 heads. Member "Oldschool" had his 580ci race motor on the dyno with a set of 2in headers and it made 850hp. They later installed his custom built 2.25x4 in step headers that were built for the car just to compare. The bigger $2000 custom tubes made the exact same hp and lost 5 ftlbs of torque on the same engine in an apples to apples comparison. 

The 2in size is pretty versatile and works with lots of different engine combinations. 



Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Thanks Ron,

I knew my 1 3/4 headers, exhaust and carb, were going to be my last big bottle necks by going with the 505 motor.
The costs keep on mounting by deciding to go to the stroker once I found out I need a new crank anyways and I knew they would and it was a difficult decision for me vs sticking with a snotty 440 build!  
Ultimately, I figured with the engine being completely rebuilt and apart now, and since my 69 Road Runner is a keeper, do it once and be done with it, and a street car that has potential to run a high ten second number always is what I set as my goal for my ultimate keeper old school American Muscle Car.

Out of curiosty, given the fact that the 1 3/4 headers would be choking my engine on the big end, and making power at lesser rpm band how much HP do you believe I would be leaving on the table by sticking with the little Hedman Headers?  

At least I was able to swap my Proform 750 Carb for a Holley HP 1000 (so that helped a bit).  

[firefighter3931]

Out of curiosty, given the fact that the 1 3/4 headers would be choking my engine on the big end and making power at lesser rpm band how much HP do you believe I would be leaving on the table by sticking with the little Hedman Headers?   

At least I was able to swap my Proform 750 Carb for a Holley HP 1000 (so that helped a bit).   

With the Eddy Heads and solid cam i would say in the 40-50hp range. The smaller tube would bring the peak power in sooner and not allow it to reach potential.

Given the choice between keeping the PF 750 carb and using the 2in headers vs 1000hp carb and 1.75in headers ; my choice would be the slightly smaller carb and better breathing up top. 

With 4500 stall and 6000 shift points making a lot of torque lower in the powerband is not the best situation. If you were building a milder combo that was going to be "all done" at 5000rpm and using 3.23 gears the smaller headers would make more sense.   


Ron

[1Bad70Charger]

Great info Ron, thank you! 

[1Bad70Charger]

Looks like I lucked out and was able to network and find a brand new set of thermal treated ceramic coated TTI 2 inch headers (into 3.5 collectors) for a price that was too good to be true, (cheaper than new 2" Doug Headers from Summit) so I should be good to go!  

Thanks again for your help Gentleman can't wait for spring!  

[charger2fast4u]

looks like you will have a good engine build combo. what kind of HP and TQ specs are you looking at? i wonder what kind of HP and TQ gains you would gain switching to some ported indy ez1 heads? are these the headers you will be running?   http://www.ttiexhaust.com/Header-TTI440-200/BB2headers.htm

[1Bad70Charger]

looks like you will have a good engine build combo. what kind of HP and TQ specs are you looking at? i wonder what kind of HP and TQ gains you would gain switching to some ported indy ez1 heads? are these the headers you will be running?   http://www.ttiexhaust.com/Header-TTI440-200/BB2headers.htm

Yes sir, those would be the exact headers I bought today for brand new at a great price (the ones that retail for $841 from TTI, and I had I know I was going to go with the 505 ci engine would have gone with the EZ1 Heads, as I am probably leaving at least 60 HP on the table easy.  I already have bought the Eddy 84 cc Heads back in October and I am 100% over my budget on this, so can always swap out the heads in the next few years as I am not going to be doing any serious or competitive drag racing.

That being said, we are expecting to make between 550 and 575 HP and close to 600 ft lbs.  It is frustrating a bit to me that the Eddy Heads will keep me from hitting the magical 600HP/TQ range for me, but for a street car I won't be able to use most of the current power anyways on the street, with my older style Nitto Drag Radials, and I will probably upgrade my heads this time next year, just to MAXIMIZE my entire set-up and squeeze all the available power out of it b/c that just me. 

[firefighter3931]

Good score on the headers Jim 

When you decide to upgrade to a set of Indy EZ's your exhaust will be all set. 

It sucks buying stuff twice ; that's why i originally went with the 2in TTI's on my 446. They were too big but i knew at some point a bigger motor would be in the works so planning for future upgrades is allways a good thing ! 



Ron

[charger2fast4u]

Good score on the headers Jim 

When you decide to upgrade to a set of Indy EZ's your exhaust will be all set. 

It sucks buying stuff twice ; that's why i originally went with the 2in TTI's on my 446. They were too big but i knew at some point a bigger motor would be in the works so planning for future upgrades is allways a good thing ! 



Ron

i hear you on that one Ron i bought my TTI 2'' headers alittle over a year now i haven't got to use them my charger build has been on the back burner so i can finish my restoration on my truck. i was going to put them on my 440 knowing it would be overkill until i got a stroker motor going. but save some pennies in the end. even though it's impossible to on these type of builds great build will be looking forward to seeing some dyno numbers if you can my build will be close but i'll be going with ez1 heads

[firefighter3931]

my build will be close but i'll be going with ez1 heads

With the max wedge port EZ1 and a suitable intake manifold you should be well over 600hp with the right cam. 

Those 2in TTI's are perfect for that type of build 


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

With the max wedge port EZ1 and a suitable intake manifold you should be well over 600hp with the right cam. 

Those 2in TTI's are perfect for that type of build 


Ron
[/quote]

good to know my goal is in the 650HP/TQ range if you don't mind Ron i'll be contacting you for some reccomendations and information on the build also for another set of those firecore wires  hoping it will be this year sometime but have some suspension work that i need to buy first for the charger and finish the truck before i can start

[firefighter3931]

With the max wedge port EZ1 and a suitable intake manifold you should be well over 600hp with the right cam. 

Those 2in TTI's are perfect for that type of build 


Ron

good to know my goal is in the 650HP/TQ range if you don't mind Ron i'll be contacting you for some reccomendations and information on the build also for another set of those firecore wires  hoping it will be this year sometime but have some suspension work that i need to buy first for the charger and finish the truck before i can start
[/quote]


That 650/650 goal is certainly achievable 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62316.0.html

If you want to bounce ideas just ask....


Ron