Lightest Street Legal 2nd Gen Charger

[daveco]

Reading the threads on unibody weight and Street Legal TV's Charger project got me wondering just how light can a streetable Charger get? (Streetable being a loose term.)
I grew up in the Eugene/Springfield area of Oregon (late 70's to early 80's) and remember a badass 68 Charger used to be the one to beat. It had a big block of some sort with a tunnel ram.
It was a SE and he had sliced out anything he could except his power window switches and rear window defogger! I think the guys name was Jerrel (?)

Anyway, the question is: How light can you make a 68-70 Charger? What sort of extremes have you seen people go to?

[Mike DC]

  
I dunno what the limit is but I've certainly thought about it before.  If you get a 2nd-gen down to 3300 lbs and it's still reasonably streetable then you're doing very well IMHO.  

A lot depends on what modifications you will tolerate.  How much HP does it need to hold onto?  GM drivetrain parts?  Customized chassis/suspension stuff?  Fiberglass body parts?  Stripped down interior?  Lexan glass?  Hacking big permanent holes in the unibody?  

 

[6pkrtse]

Count me out. Mine weighs 4290 with a 1/4 tank of gas & me "not" in it. But mine is an R/T/ S.E. & loaded with every available option but a sunroof. These options add alot of weight. Still runs 12's though.

[Rustymuscle]

Well, Daveco for our Killer Kong project car, we've put our '69 Charger on a serious diet. Gone is the A/C and heater (and patched the firewall), the power steering, power brakes, and even the vacuum equipment for the headlight doors (we're building a custom pull-tab lever).

We've got lightweight aluminum WELD wheels, we notched and boxed the K-frame, relocated the battery in the trunk, and pinned down a race-gauge fiberglass flat hood using A12 hood pins and brackets. We were going to ditch the windshield wipers, but opted to keep 'em since we were making a street car after all.

The problem is the hefty Dana 60 and HEMI motor. So while we're hoping for sub-3,800 lbs., we won't be surprised if we break 4,000 lbs.



-Kevin

[daveco]

I was reading the thread in the Wing Car section about the "Big Willie" Daytonas, and there was a reference to his cars weighing around 3000 pounds (aluminum hemi). Seemed amazing.

[Silver R/T]

There's a lot of fiberglass parts available for 2nd gen Charger. I really would like to build one someday. Things under the hood could be lightened up also. Aluminum water pump/housing, heads, intake minifold, radiator, etc.

[greenpigs]

  We had a member on the old forum I think that street raced a 68 and he posted its weight was 3200 with him in it. It was a RB & had fiberglass front clip & doors with Plexiglas windows & only a driver seat. He also said he hated driving the car except when it was race time. He traded it for a Vette & regretted hacking the charger up. As for how quick it was I think he mentioned low 10's but that was only on the motor & I think he didn't run NOS.

[Patronus]

And theres that tube frame, Williams rear-end, half-moons,...

[G-man]

I personally believe you can get the charger down to 3000-3200 lbs without going to any fireblass exterior body panels.

-Build a tube chasis and get rid of the unibody.
-Build a complete alluminium engine from block to heads.
-Get a manual gearbox inside an alluminium casing
-Alluminium radiator
-Coil-overs front and rear to get  rid of those real heavy Leafs, T-bars
-Monotube shocks in alluminium casing
-Get a alluminium centre in the differential
-Get the dash made out of alluminium or fibreglass
-Get the carburettor from holley made of alluminium
-Take the seats out and the brackets they bolt onto, take the brackets to a metal engineer friend and get them made out of alluminium
-Get all the bolts that go around the engine and the car made of titanium (unless alloy would be strong enough and available as its cheaper (bolts add up a lot of weight really quickly)
-Alluminium wheels
-Alluminium brakes, callipers etc
-You can get a custom built alloy K-frame also to save a bunch of weight there.

Leave the air-con out and only have engine, radiator, gearbox and driver, still have all normal glass and interior. Car looks stock from outside yet its lost at least 500-600lbs in all the above mentioned. I do believe when you count of about 500-600lbs of saving through all of that considering my charger is 3692lbs exactly without the driver, I can see car on its own weighing near 3000lbs. The car also had a full tank of fuel when it was weighed.

The other way to judge an approximation is that XV motorsports's  71 Cuda with all the original steel panels came weighing in at 2900lbs and the charger is a foot longer but its only boxed air and XV didnt do all the other stuff mentioned here that could be done. So 3000lbs to me is realistic without drilling holes etc if you have the $ to pay for all those made up alloy bits that you cant actually buy.

Well thats my goal with my own charger anyway, when its done I will definatelly post up the weight of the car, hopefully you are still alive by then as its not cheap 

[suntech]

I weighed my 68 at the DOT when i got the plates on it here in Norway, and on the scale mine showed 3620, with no driver, and just 3 gallons of fuel.
It is a 383/727/ 8,75/ manual drums/ no AC car, on std 14 inch steel wheels.

Things that will make it lighter:
Full aluminum motor ( hemi) app 220 off. ( alu everything, carbon fibre plenum on intake)
Carbon hood/ alu hinges      app  40 off.
Alu rad                             app  10 off.
XV front susp/ brakes         app  65 off.  
Carbon trunk lid                 app  20 off.
XV rear susp/ brakes          app  30 off.
T 56 gearbox                    app  20 off. ?
Carbon driveshaft              app  10 off.
Headers                           app  15 off.
Sparco seats                    app  10 off.



This is just the big parts, and this shows a weight loss at app 440 pounds.

then there will be some more small things to save weight, but also a few things that will add weight  I have a Mark Williams modular rearend, with the entire center in aluminum, but i doubt that it is much lighter than the 8,75. Have not weighed it, but i will soon  
I will also make lockplate and front valance in carbon, so there will be a little gain there, but then frame connectors and torque boxes will add on some, together with sound deadener etc.

My goal is to end up in the ballpark of 3200, with as close as possible to 50/50 ratio as i can get. ( battery and drysump tank in trunk)
I will have a full interior, with stereo etc.

[greenpigs]

Some things I have done which are free or less than $200 cept rims:

Scraped all undercoating off on belly & inside quarter panel,doors & underside of fenders.   (free)
Removed all the seam sealer in interior & did not replace with new                                  (free)
Replaced wrong year(68) driver seats with fiberglass buckets                                  ($75 used)
Took out heater box and all supporting hardware.                                                            (free)
Switched to manual steering                                                                           ($200 Ebay)
Switching to manual brakes( I have all drums also)                                                        ($55)
Motor has Aluminum intake,   distributor clamp & valley pan clamps.               ($165,12 & 20)
Aluminum water pump housing & water pump                                                          ($90& 33)
Header's guess they weigh less & HP\TQ benefits also.                                                 ($176)
No radio\speakers & bought repo block off plate                                                            ($99)
Do not have rubber mat in trunk & will not (heavy)                                                        (free)
Quick 8 Rims from Summits which are Draglite knockoffs @ 15% off                                  ($391)

I do not have a weight yet but will take it to the public scales this spring.

  Not much else planed on reducing weight cept an aluminum radiator & driveshaft. Plus I am going to use the cheap version of the aluminum driveshaft. The radiator can wait as I don't think I need one it just would be nice to have it. The driveshaft is also for eye candy as I have not found anyone who claims it make a difference. It takes some vibration out but I still do not see how dropping 20lbs of rotating mass can not help HP, but its over my head I guess.

Everything I have done is because I WANT a stripped Charger & would have ordered one this way.(Manual EVERYTHING) Switching to a standard tranny now is out of my price range. This isn't for everyone as it is loud inside & takes a little bit to park. But this also isn't my daily driver & I like the extra effort it takes driving.

Also it isn't all about stripping a car to the bones as the proper selection of drivetrain parts is where you need to spend the most time.  I am going to put subframe connectors on this spring some time which goes against my way of thinking but it is worth the extra weight.

[Mike DC]

The other way to judge an approximation is that XV motorsports's  71 Cuda with all the original steel panels came weighing in at 2900lbs and the charger is a foot longer but its only boxed air and XV didnt do all the other stuff mentioned here that could be done.

I don't see how they cound have a Chally down to 2900 lbs.  Not calling them liars but I'm amazed if they did it.

The chassis & drivetrain losses together probably don't amount to more than 350 lbs lost over a 440/727 stocker.  Challys aren't that much lighter than Chargers to begin with.  I know the XV stuff is aimed at being light but they also like to add comfort improvements & stiffening too.   

[Rustymuscle]

I know people do it and live with it just fine, but I have a tough time going with fiberglass fenders and door skins. It might be that I've just not seen one that actually didn't look like it was made out of cheap fiberglass...

There's lots of front suspension kits that shave off weight while adding stiffness, which is good stuff, but from what I can see, pretty expensive.

[suntech]

A guy here in Norway has a Cuda there he putted on the XV suspention and brakes. I dont know the wight loss with the rear, but he weighed the car before and after installation of the front suspention/ brakes, and the weightloss was 65 pounds.

[Lennard]

I know people do it and live with it just fine, but I have a tough time going with fiberglass fenders and door skins. It might be that I've just not seen one that actually didn't look like it was made out of cheap fiberglass...

It all depents on how much work you put in to it.
Fiberglass hood, fenders and bumper:

[Mike DC]

I know people do it and live with it just fine, but I have a tough time going with fiberglass fenders and door skins. It might be that I've just not seen one that actually didn't look like it was made out of cheap fiberglass...

Even if the factories had done "fiberglass fenders" or "fiberglass doors" they probably wouldn't have done those panels entirely from fiberglass.  They'd give them glass outer skins but there would probably be inner framework panels made of steel.  Or at least more complex shapings of things to reinforce stuff adequately.

Just copying the stock steel panels in glass is not gonna produce the result as streetable as we might want.  That's more suited to race cars.  Even the panels that are suitable for totally fiberglass construction (hoods, etc) still need steel peices to reinforce them in a few places.  

[Blakcharger440]

I weighed my 68 at the DOT when i got the plates on it here in Norway, and on the scale mine showed 3620, with no driver, and just 3 gallons of fuel.
It is a 383/727/ 8,75/ manual drums/ no AC car, on std 14 inch steel wheels.

Things that will make it lighter:
Full aluminum motor ( hemi) app 220 off. ( alu everything, carbon fibre plenum on intake)
Carbon hood/ alu hinges      app  40 off.
Alu rad                             app  10 off.
XV front susp/ brakes         app  65 off.  
Carbon trunk lid                 app  20 off.
XV rear susp/ brakes          app  30 off.
T 56 gearbox                    app  20 off. ?
Carbon driveshaft              app  10 off.
Headers                           app  15 off.
Sparco seats                    app  10 off.



This is just the big parts, and this shows a weight loss at app 440 pounds.

then there will be some more small things to save weight, but also a few things that will add weight  I have a Mark Williams modular rearend, with the entire center in aluminum, but i doubt that it is much lighter than the 8,75. Have not weighed it, but i will soon  
I will also make lockplate and front valance in carbon, so there will be a little gain there, but then frame connectors and torque boxes will add on some, together with sound deadener etc.

My goal is to end up in the ballpark of 3200, with as close as possible to 50/50 ratio as i can get. ( battery and drysump tank in trunk)
I will have a full interior, with stereo etc.

Who will you buy your carbon fiber hood and trunk lid from...or are you going to lay them up yourself?

[Mike DC]

A guy here in Norway has a Cuda there he putted on the XV suspention and brakes. I dont know the wight loss with the rear, but he weighed the car before and after installation of the front suspention/ brakes, and the weightloss was 65 pounds.

Like I said, I can't believe that 2900-lb Challenger weight figure.

A decent optioned 440 Challenger would weigh a good 3600 lbs from the factory.  Figure 200 lbs lost for the whole aluminum gen-III Hemi drivetrain upgrade.  Maybe 100-150 lbs total for both ends of the suspension.  That's not gonna add up near 700 lbs.

[Troy]

A guy here in Norway has a Cuda there he putted on the XV suspention and brakes. I dont know the wight loss with the rear, but he weighed the car before and after installation of the front suspention/ brakes, and the weightloss was 65 pounds.

Like I said, I can't believe that 2900-lb Challenger weight figure.

A decent optioned 440 Challenger would weigh a good 3600 lbs from the factory.  Figure 200 lbs lost for the whole aluminum gen-III Hemi drivetrain upgrade.  Maybe 100-150 lbs total for both ends of the suspension.  That's not gonna add up near 700 lbs.

My 70 Challenger 340 auto with A/C has a door sticker that says either 3,240 or 3,260 pounds. Not sure how accurate that is but I haven't had a chance to weight it. However, in that case it would only have to lose less than 400 pounds. Removing the A/C would get close to 100 pounds off and aluminum heads would shave another 50. Aluminum strut rods, radiator, intake manifold, water pump, timing chain cover, etc. along with disc brakes and headers should easily knock off another 100 pounds. There's 250 while leaving the majority of the car intact. Finding another 90 pounds wouldn't be rocket science.

I believe a gen-III Hemi would save a lot more than 200 pounds compared to a 440. Those are much lighter than an LA engine - which is nearly 200 pounds lighter than a 440. Any modern trans should be much lighter than either a factory auto or 4-speed.

Troy

[suntech]

Who will you buy your carbon fiber hood and trunk lid from...or are you going to lay them up yourself?

Will lay them up myself

[Mike DC]

My 70 Challenger 340 auto with A/C has a door sticker that says either 3,240 or 3,260 pounds. Not sure how accurate that is but I haven't had a chance to weight it. However, in that case it would only have to lose less than 400 pounds. Removing the A/C would get close to 100 pounds off and aluminum heads would shave another 50. Aluminum strut rods, radiator, intake manifold, water pump, timing chain cover, etc. along with disc brakes and headers should easily knock off another 100 pounds. There's 250 while leaving the majority of the car intact. Finding another 90 pounds wouldn't be rocket science.

I believe a gen-III Hemi would save a lot more than 200 pounds compared to a 440. Those are much lighter than an LA engine - which is nearly 200 pounds lighter than a 440. Any modern trans should be much lighter than either a factory auto or 4-speed.

Well, I might indeed be overestimating the Chally's stock weight.  I haven't messed with them like I have Chargers, I've just read their weights in press.  And you're right about the tranny figure.  I hadn't thought of that issue.  727 to modern stick, that's gonna lose some weight.  

But I don't think I'm too wrong about the engine weight figure.  When it comes to all-aluminum V8 engines I think you're only gonna get it down to about 1 lb per cubic inch.  Any brand, any amount of custom boring & stroking, that seems to be about the limit you can get.  I doubt a gen-III Hemi is gonna come down below 400-something pounds. 

[Troy]

A guy on C-C.com posted that his AAR tips the scales at 3350 pounds but I have no idea what it's equipped with.

Here's some info from Allpar (2004 Hemi so I assume 5.7):
"Weight (includes induction, wiring harness, auto-trans flexplate and exhaust manifolds, but not accessories)   485 lbs"
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/new-mopar-hemi.html

Troy

[Mike DC]

                      
So an AAR Cuda might be tipping the scales at 3350?  Okay . . . then a Challenger with 2" more wheelbase, a steel hood, and a heavier BB drivetrain . . . I'm thinking 3500.  (Assuming that the AAR Cuda we're referencing is reasonably stock.)    

So my weight guess might not have been too far out of the ballpark.  Throw in a bunch of power options like A/C and I think 3600 is getting plausible for a loaded hi-po Chally R/T.  (And I haven't even thought about the stock iron-head Hemi cars.  I would expect those to probably equal or outweigh every other possible setup.)

I thought of something else about trannys - The 727s are heavier than the 4spds, but in the case of a 440 or Hemi car the extra weight of the torque boxes & Dana 60 would probably put that weight back on.  

-------------------------------

Engines - If memory serves, a stock all-iron 440 is like 670 lbs.  So if you knocked down the engine weight to 485, that's 200 lbs lost.  An alumium gen-III block would probably get that number closer to 400 lbs though.

[daveco]

We need something like a "What Does it Weigh?" thread, listing the actual observed weights of whatever someone has had the opportunity to place on a scale.
Shouldn't take too long to develop a good database.

[motorcitydak]

I agree with daveco. I have my car in shell form and will be getting some equipment to weigh it soon. I will take the rear axle out and remove the front k member. That will finally give everyone an answer to the question of just what does a shell weigh.

[greenpigs]

I will contribute to your post on what a shell weighs with some other weights I have.

[firefighter3931]

I will contribute to your post on what a shell weighs with some other weights I have.

Mine weighed 3850 with the following options :

-iron block 440 with aluminum heads,aluminum intake, sheet metal valve covers
-cast iron waterpump housing with aluminum waterpump, steel pullies
-Power steering box/pump/hoses
-aluminum rad + electric fan
-TTI 2x3.5 in headers 3.5x3 in x-pipe, mufflers, 3in tailpipes, tips
-Cast iron master cylinder with disc brake upgrade
-Full stock interior with heaterbox, aftermarket shifter and mild steel 8pt rollbar, insulation in floor/roof, kickpanels, firewall, trunk divider, package tray
-welded in MP frame connectors
-Heavy Duty Dana 60 from a truck...built to stock specs (at least 30-40lbs heavier than the std car D60)
-Weld Pro Stars on all 4 corners with 225/70/15 BFG radials up front & 295/65/15 MT drag radials out back
-11in drum brakes on the Dana
-SS leaf springs
-Stock gas tank Full of 93 octane

*Basicly nothing done to lighten the car....hence the name Black Pig  



Ron

[Ghoste]

Ah yes, but that could just be the one pig charming enough for Jules Winfield. (it's an inside joke for all the Pulp Fiction fans)

[daveco]

 That is one beautiful "Pig" 

[1969chargerrtse]

What amazes me is that the new Challenger is 4200lbs and so much shorter.

[suntech]

Stock gas tank Full of 93 octane

How much is that Ron? about 18 gallons or so? That would then be in the ballpark of 110 lbs

A little ot, since it is not a charger....

A guy here in Norway has a Cuda with:
XV level II front and rear suspention/ subframes
XV Level II brakes front/ drums rear
340 all cast iron exept aluminum intake and headers
9,5x18/ 12x18 forgedline, with 275/335 toyo R888
8,75 rearend
727 tranny
Body and interior standard

This weighed 3325lbs.

[Mike DC]

Mine weighed 3850 with the following options :

-iron block 440 with aluminum heads,aluminum intake, sheet metal valve covers
-cast iron waterpump housing with aluminum waterpump, steel pullies
-Power steering box/pump/hoses
-aluminum rad + electric fan
-TTI 2x3.5 in headers 3.5x3 in x-pipe, mufflers, 3in tailpipes, tips
-Cast iron master cylinder with disc brake upgrade
-Full stock interior with heaterbox, aftermarket shifter and mild steel 8pt rollbar, insulation in floor/roof, kickpanels, firewall, trunk divider, package tray
-welded in MP frame connectors
-Heavy Duty Dana 60 from a truck...built to stock specs (at least 30-40lbs heavier than the std car D60)
-Weld Pro Stars on all 4 corners with 225/70/15 BFG radials up front & 295/65/15 MT drag radials out back
-11in drum brakes on the Dana
-SS leaf springs
-Stock gas tank Full of 93 octane

*Basicly nothing done to lighten the car....hence the name Black Pig 

Honestly I'm surprised it's not heavier than 3850. 

[firefighter3931]

Mine weighed 3850 with the following options :

-iron block 440 with aluminum heads,aluminum intake, sheet metal valve covers
-cast iron waterpump housing with aluminum waterpump, steel pullies
-Power steering box/pump/hoses
-aluminum rad + electric fan
-TTI 2x3.5 in headers 3.5x3 in x-pipe, mufflers, 3in tailpipes, tips
-Cast iron master cylinder with disc brake upgrade
-Full stock interior with heaterbox, aftermarket shifter and mild steel 8pt rollbar, insulation in floor/roof, kickpanels, firewall, trunk divider, package tray
-welded in MP frame connectors
-Heavy Duty Dana 60 from a truck...built to stock specs (at least 30-40lbs heavier than the std car D60)
-Weld Pro Stars on all 4 corners with 225/70/15 BFG radials up front & 295/65/15 MT drag radials out back
-11in drum brakes on the Dana
-SS leaf springs
-Stock gas tank Full of 93 octane

*Basicly nothing done to lighten the car....hence the name Black Pig 

Honestly I'm surprised it's not heavier than 3850. 

Mike, that's just the car weight without me in it. Raceweight was 4100 with me in the car with helmet and protective clothing 

It's even heavier now with the addition of the new World cast iron block. I've added a few things but taken some weight out so things have changed somewhat but i'm sure it's over 3900 w/o me in it. I need to rescale the car 

Changes since last "weigh-in" 

-World block & 572ci rotating assembly
-Aluminum waterpump housing replaced the factory cast iron piece
-Aluminum master (Willwood) replaced factory cast iron unit
-March billet pullies/brackets replaced the stock steel stuff
-Mallory 250gph fuel pump & braided lines replaced the stock plumbing
-CalTrac Monoleafs & bars replaced the SS springs

Stock gas tank Full of 93 octane

How much is that Ron? about 18 gallons or so? That would then be in the ballpark of 110 lbs

A little ot, since it is not a charger....

A guy here in Norway has a Cuda with:
XV level II front and rear suspention/ subframes
XV Level II brakes front/ drums rear
340 all cast iron exept aluminum intake and headers
9,5x18/ 12x18 forgedline, with 275/335 toyo R888
8,75 rearend
727 tranny
Body and interior standard

This weighed 3325lbs

Yep that was with a full tank of gas (18 Gallons) so at ~6lbs per gallon we're looking at 110lbs or so. At least the weight is over top the back tires which helps with a traction limited car 



Ron