440 stock build using on hand parts

[gtx6970]

Ok, Heres the jist.

1969 Chager R/T  stock 440 automatic

I have a car in the shop with an owner questioning the actual compression ratio we have here.
Reading another thread I found it appears to be in the 8.5 to one range , me personally I would like to get it more in the mid 9's range if possibile without tearing into the shortblock
I talked to the shop who did the machine work only and he said it was just milled enough to clean up the deck for a better gasket seal. So I'm guessing maybe just a couple thou off the deck ?

If using the L2266 F pistons at 030 over , whats a  good head gasket to get it up to a more desireable 9 or 9.5 to 1

This engine has  906 heads but I did not build it so I have no idea the cc's of the chamber or how far down in the hole these pistons are. But if I take it apart I would like  to use a gasket to acheive a 9.5 to 1 CR

[62 Max]

Bill,"assuming" it has composition gaskets now,the steel shim factory gasket will give you close to half a point.If it already has them you are close ,or should be to what you want.My .030 over 440 has Ross flat tops,.008 down,comp ratio is 9.92 with FelPro 1009 gasket(.039) and 10.01 with .019 steel shim and 86cc head

[BSB67]

The thinest head gasket will add about .3 to .35 over the 0.040 composite. Unless someone did some milling other than clean-up cuts, I estimate that you'll be at 8.9 at best and possibly lower even with the thin gasket.  You'll need the chamber cc and deck height to know for sure.

[gtx6970]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I feel the best thing is and I plan to pull the heads early this week and get an actual deck height masurement as well as CC the heads.
That way I know exacly whats here with no guess work.

[firefighter3931]

The 2266 pistons are down the hole a fair bit depending on the block spec and how close it is to what it's supposed to be (10.725)

When you pull the head get a piston to deck measurement and we can figure it out. A set of closed chamber heads are probably in your future if you want anything over 9:1  

Chris (Just69chrgr) has the 2266's with closed chamber 915's and steel shim head gaskets and IFIRC the resulting C/R was in the 9.3:1 range.

With the right cam it can be made to run pretty descent....Chris has been mid 13's in his 4000+ car with HP manifolds/full exhaust/3.55 gears and BFG street tires.  


Ron

[gtx6970]

Thanks Ron,

Here is the info I have on the cam per the receits I have. It appears to be a Comp Cam - pt # K23-223-4
Item #: K23-223-4
Xtreme Energy Camshaft Kit Competition Cams K23-223-4 Hyd Flat Tappet - 3 Bolt - RPM 1600-5800 - Adv.Dur. 268 Int./280 Exh. - V.Lift .477 Int./.480 Exh. - Lobe 110 deg - Incl.Cam - Lifter - V.Sprng - Timing Set

Doing a bit of digging, I believe this is the spec sheet for the cam itself. BUT, this sheet calls it a single bolt . Yet,,,elsewhere it calls it a 3 bolt timing gear. so I'm not 100% certain how accurate this is. Best I can tell the cam kit # is about 3 or 4 years old and I can't find this exact kit # on Com Cams online catalog

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=707&sb=2

[firefighter3931]

The XE268 is a descent cam...very similat to the Engle K56 which is slightly more agressive on the valve lift. It'll work fine with a stock converter and 3.23-3.55 gears. Compression in the 9-9.5:1 range is ideal. Degree the cam in on a 106* intake centerline and give it some base timing with a quick advance curve....it'll surprise you 


Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

The XE268 is a descent cam...very similat to the Engle K56 which is slightly more agressive on the valve lift. It'll work fine with a stock converter and 3.23-3.55 gears. Compression in the 9-9.5:1 range is ideal. Degree the cam in on a 106* intake centerline and give it some base timing with a quick advance curve....it'll surprise you 


Ron

Ron, the xe268 is what you instructed me to put in my build and I am very happy. I have 452 heads with a valve job, mopar performance rockers, eddy performer rpm intake, SRP .030 pistons, mopar electronic ignition with chrome box, headers, 3.23, holley 650 mechanical secondaries blueprinted from Blake carbureation out of Mooresville NC set up for my build. Car has extremely quck throttle response. Nice lopey idle with 12 inches of vacuum at idle, runs all accessories with no issue and I am running the stock 383 H code torque converter. Effortlessly smokes the tires, Don't have but a few miles on it sense I picked it up Saturday. I will say that a set of 3.55 gears probably will wake it up further, but it is nice to travel at 70 MPH running 2500 rpm
Thanks again for your help.

[gtx6970]

Fellas,
Thanks for the help.
I talked to the engines builder yesterday and he couldn't really tell me anything other than he feels the compression is probably in 8.4 to  8.6 range.

The heads are coming off today . That way I can establish some kind of a base line to go forward from,,, ultimately to get to where the cars owner wants to be and where I feel it should be.
I'll post my findings here with pictures when I have everything documented.

This a  1969 Charger R/T auto, stock torq conv and I think 3.23's  with factory air so overall drive quality with a nice power band is the target .

here's a teaser just the same .

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Fellas,
Thanks for the help.
I talked to the engines builder yesterday and he couldn't really tell me anything other than he feels the compression is probably in 8.4 to  8.6 range.

The heads are coming off today . That way I can establish some kind of a base line to go forward from,,, ultimately to get to where the cars owner wants to be and where I feel it should be.
I'll post my findings here with pictures when I have everything documented.

This a  1969 Charger R/T auto, stock torq conv and I think 3.23's  with factory air so overall drive quality with a nice power band is the target .

here's a teaser just the same .

The car you just described is similar to my 68 but it was a 383 H code. Now I have the 440 in that I described in the earlier post.
Like I said I am happy with the build.

[BSB67]

The XE268 is a descent cam...very similat to the Engle K56 which is slightly more agressive on the valve lift. It'll work fine with a stock converter and 3.23-3.55 gears. Compression in the 9-9.5:1 range is ideal. Degree the cam in on a 106* intake centerline and give it some base timing with a quick advance curve....it'll surprise you 


Ron

Ron, the xe268 is what you instructed me to put in my build and I am very happy. I have 452 heads with a valve job, mopar performance rockers, eddy performer rpm intake, SRP .030 pistons, mopar electronic ignition with chrome box, headers, 3.23, holley 650 mechanical secondaries blueprinted from Blake carbureation out of Mooresville NC set up for my build. Car has extremely quck throttle response. Nice lopey idle with 12 inches of vacuum at idle, runs all accessories with no issue and I am running the stock 383 H code torque converter. Effortlessly smokes the tires, Don't have but a few miles on it sense I picked it up Saturday. I will say that a set of 3.55 gears probably will wake it up further, but it is nice to travel at 70 MPH running 2500 rpm
Thanks again for your help.

Hmmmm.  70mph @ 2500 rpm.  That would make the rear tires 32" tall.

[Sixt8Chrgr]

The XE268 is a descent cam...very similat to the Engle K56 which is slightly more agressive on the valve lift. It'll work fine with a stock converter and 3.23-3.55 gears. Compression in the 9-9.5:1 range is ideal. Degree the cam in on a 106* intake centerline and give it some base timing with a quick advance curve....it'll surprise you 


Ron

Ron, the xe268 is what you instructed me to put in my build and I am very happy. I have 452 heads with a valve job, mopar performance rockers, eddy performer rpm intake, SRP .030 pistons, mopar electronic ignition with chrome box, headers, 3.23, holley 650 mechanical secondaries blueprinted from Blake carbureation out of Mooresville NC set up for my build. Car has extremely quck throttle response. Nice lopey idle with 12 inches of vacuum at idle, runs all accessories with no issue and I am running the stock 383 H code torque converter. Effortlessly smokes the tires, Don't have but a few miles on it sense I picked it up Saturday. I will say that a set of 3.55 gears probably will wake it up further, but it is nice to travel at 70 MPH running 2500 rpm
Thanks again for your help.

Hmmmm.  70mph @ 2500 rpm.  That would make the rear tires 32" tall.

70 mph is what the GPS read and the tach read 2500 rpm...is your math right?

[gtx6970]

Well I got it down to the shortblock yesterday and mesured all eight and they all run about .085" - .086" down in the hole
Will be measuring the heads today and see what we have.

[firefighter3931]

Well I got it down to the shortblock yesterday and mesured all eight and they all run about .085" - .086" down in the hole
Will be measuring the heads today and see what we have.

That seems about right Bill 

Assuming the heads are 88cc with a 4.35in bore the numbers are :

(1) .040 composition head gasket = 8.71:1
(2) .020 steel shim head gasket = 9.04:1

I'm guessing that it had the blue Felpro gaskets installed ?




Ron

[firefighter3931]

The XE268 is a descent cam...very similat to the Engle K56 which is slightly more agressive on the valve lift. It'll work fine with a stock converter and 3.23-3.55 gears. Compression in the 9-9.5:1 range is ideal. Degree the cam in on a 106* intake centerline and give it some base timing with a quick advance curve....it'll surprise you 


Ron

Ron, the xe268 is what you instructed me to put in my build and I am very happy. I have 452 heads with a valve job, mopar performance rockers, eddy performer rpm intake, SRP .030 pistons, mopar electronic ignition with chrome box, headers, 3.23, holley 650 mechanical secondaries blueprinted from Blake carbureation out of Mooresville NC set up for my build. Car has extremely quck throttle response. Nice lopey idle with 12 inches of vacuum at idle, runs all accessories with no issue and I am running the stock 383 H code torque converter. Effortlessly smokes the tires, Don't have but a few miles on it sense I picked it up Saturday. I will say that a set of 3.55 gears probably will wake it up further, but it is nice to travel at 70 MPH running 2500 rpm
Thanks again for your help.

Glad to hear it's running good and you're happy 


Ron

[gtx6970]

Results are in,
I ck'd several chambers at random on both heads. all are in the 87 to 88 cc range

so my question is. how far can the heads be milled safely without having to mill the  intake ?

I'm shooting for 9.5 but if I can get it to low 9's with just gaskets,,,, costs for machine work versus gain may not be worth it.

And , yes it had the felpro blues on it. I've been looking around and getting a  steel gasket to get the .020 thickness shouldn't  a problem

PS, Yes  it's 30 over so the bore should be  4.350

[firefighter3931]

Yes, the .030 overbore = 4.35 

You can mill the heads .020 safely without concern for intake manifold alignment issues. For every .005 you reduce by 1cc so that would give you an 84cc chamber.

84cc + .020 steel shim + .085 piston to deck = 9.33:1 

I'd call it good there and reassemble. Put a degree wheel on it and verify that the installed centerline on the XE268 is at 105-106*

After it's up and running dial the distributor in with 18* initial & 36* total all in by 2500-2800 rpm and that will really wake it up. 

BTW....that's a nice looking car ! 


Ron

[Cooter]

Pardon me here, but Ron you stated 18 Degrees Initial? Is that 18 Degrees at the crank, Idling? So if this is correct, this means the car with it's 15 Extra in Vacuum advance(If running vacuum advance), and another 15 In mechanical advance would put him running somewhere round 50 degrees timing at road speed, correct?

[red79]

Pardon me here, but Ron you stated 18 Degrees Initial? Is that 18 Degrees at the crank, Idling? So if this is correct, this means the car with it's 15 Extra in Vacuum advance(If running vacuum advance), and another 15 In mechanical advance would put him running somewhere round 50 degrees timing at road speed, correct?

I imagine he means without vac advance hooked up--he mentioned earlier[edit: in a different thread, oops] that he isn't a fan of it, and I can't imagine any engine running with 50˚ in high-rpm cruise (2800+ rpm, throttle mostly closed)

[Troy]

I believe Ron usually shoots for 36 degrees total with vacuum advance disconnected (he doesn't use it on performance engines). I think the vacuum advance is supposed to be around 12 degrees that would put it at 48 with everything (51 if it's 15 degrees). However, when you stomp on the gas you're only going to get mechanical - the vacuum advance is really there for fuel mileage and drivability.

Troy

[firefighter3931]

Pardon me here, but Ron you stated 18 Degrees Initial? Is that 18 Degrees at the crank, Idling? So if this is correct, this means the car with it's 15 Extra in Vacuum advance(If running vacuum advance), and another 15 In mechanical advance would put him running somewhere round 50 degrees timing at road speed, correct?

Yep, that's pretty much it ; 18* at idle & another 17-18 mechanical with a brisk curve. On mild builds that produce lots of manifold vacuum the vac advance can be used. The stock advance cans are designed for ~15in of vacuum and only operate under light throttle/cruise situations so pulling extra timing in will benefit economy somewhat.

Once you mash the pedal the vacuum abruptly drops and you loose the vacuum advance, avoiding detonation. I don't like using it with moderately built motors that are cammed up because those builds don't generally produce enough vacuum to operate the vacuum advance reliably. Surging often occurs which results from timing fluctiations but can also be carb related (lean on the transition). Eliminating the vacuum advance takes that variable out of the equasion when the quantity of available vacuum is questionable.


Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Pardon me here, but Ron you stated 18 Degrees Initial? Is that 18 Degrees at the crank, Idling? So if this is correct, this means the car with it's 15 Extra in Vacuum advance(If running vacuum advance), and another 15 In mechanical advance would put him running somewhere round 50 degrees timing at road speed, correct?

Yep, that's pretty much it ; 18* at idle & another 17-18 mechanical with a brisk curve. On mild builds that produce lots of manifold vacuum the vac advance can be used. The stock advance cans are designed for ~15in of vacuum and only operate under light throttle/cruise situations so pulling extra timing in will benefit economy somewhat.

Once you mash the pedal the vacuum abruptly drops and you loose the vacuum advance, avoiding detonation. I don't like using it with moderately built motors that are cammed up because those builds don't generally produce enough vacuum to operate the vacuum advance reliably. Surging often occurs which results from timing fluctiations but can also be carb related (lean on the transition). Eliminating the vacuum advance takes that variable out of the equasion when the quantity of available vacuum is questionable.

Ron

Ron I have my motor timed at approximately 32* at 3500 rpm. I started at 34* at 3500 and got slight detonation then turnd the timing down. Should I adjust the timing for 36* at your above rpm range?

[firefighter3931]

Ron I have my motor timed at approximately 32* at 3500 rpm. I started at 34* at 3500 and got slight detonation then turnd the timing down. Should I adjust the timing for 36* at your above rpm range?

I'd leave it where it is....the curve i outlined above would only aggrivate your detonation problem. 

Open chamber heads with no quench will limit your advance curve. 



Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Ron I have my motor timed at approximately 32* at 3500 rpm. I started at 34* at 3500 and got slight detonation then turnd the timing down. Should I adjust the timing for 36* at your above rpm range?

I'd leave it where it is....the curve i outlined above would only aggrivate your detonation problem. 

Open chamber heads with no quench will limit your advance curve. 



Ron

sounds good.