Swapping S/N# and Cloning...question?

[68corazonetR/T]

   What's accepted or is it even worth it? I wouldn't try and fool anyone because that would be just an A-hole thing to do but is it somewhat accepted in this world of collecting cars to clone a car right down to the s/n #. I was originally looking for a Charger But when I came across this 68 Coronet440 It was white with a black stripe painted on in the back, very sloppy, the 440 trim still on it, something about the car told me to buy it.  Untill then I didn't know what a coronet was but I saw the potential and it was a driverl. I knew I could make this car into something else and I had to buy it because the body was solid and it spoke to me.....Buyyy meee. This car had oil change stickers from woolco in californa. It was mint. Years of dings and dents but mint. I bought a coronet parts car. Rotton beyond rotton and really not much left on it. I found an owner ship in it signed where you sign when you sell and also realized the fenders and hood were changed and that it actually is a 68 R/T green with a 440 (originally). It would of been geen in it's day. There was still one baby blue door pannel it.  No fender Tag. I am not crazy about painting my car green but I do know it does look good on these cars. I just want to know it's worth using this dash and s/n seeing that I have most of my clone parts now?
Jack

[Tilar]

Cloning is pretty well accepted and many of us here have clones, however swapping a VIN number is against the law and will not only land you in jail, but they will take your cars and parts away. That one is a big no-no.

[tan top]

Cloning is pretty well accepted and many of us here have clones, however swapping a VIN number is against the law and will not only land you in jail, but they will take your cars and parts away. That one is a big no-no.

nope don't do it  !!   build your self a clone by all means ! but  don't swap any stamped body numbers & dash with vin tags ,            

[Khyron]

what they said.

Like they say on Mythbusters...


Just don't do it....EVER.

[Dans 68]

nope don't do it  !!   ...but  don't swap any stamped body numbers & dash with vin tags ,             

what they said.

Like they say on Mythbusters...


Just don't do it....EVER.

I'll just add "DON'T DO IT!"  to get the point across.   

Dan

[68X426]

Please don't mess with the numbers. 

Just in case the full weight of common sense and moral  authority of the forum members is not enough, why not give a call to your state's DMV and see what they think about it?

[Ghoste]

The only reason to swap the numbers, and I mena the ONLY reason to do it is to artificially increase the perceived value of the vehicle.  It's fraud.

[elacruze]

The only reason to swap the numbers, and I mena the ONLY reason to do it is to artificially increase the perceived value of the vehicle.  It's fraud.

I had it in mind a long time ago with mine, but never did it and now I'm glad I didn't because there would have been telltale details I couldn't have known about at the time, anyway. Plus I have a much better grasp of ethics than I did when I was young.

[Brock Samson]

 Reading your posts it seems your trying to re-invent the wheel... no offence - but I see a huge can-o-worms.. Why would you do that?..  welcome to the site, if you want a charger find a '70 with a bench seat Automatic to please you'r wife. Or am I misunderstanding?.. 

[chargerboy69]

what they said.

Like they say on Mythbusters...


Just don't do it....EVER.

Well. . unless you like having sex with big, hairy men in a jail cell.  Then by all means. . . . .

[billssuperbird]

 

[hemi-hampton]

If the car is a mint rust free California car as you say (only minor dings) then why are you even buying a parts car if it don't need one other then to switch VIN to deceive If you want to clone it buy a used R/T hood & some R/T Emblems.   LEON.

[vancamp]

clone all you want but DO NOT swap the vin numbers

[TUFCAT]

clone all you want but DO NOT swap the vin numbers

Seriously man.... what did you expect us to say - - just go ahead and switch the VIN numbers??

[68corazonetR/T]

Thank-you everyone
    look I am sorry if there some of you got the wrong idea about my intent about this but if I wanted to deceive and sell my car as a real R/T do you think I would even post anything about this. It,s a clone , always will be.  I wanted to know how far people go when they clone a car and if the response would of been different perhaps I would of considered it but I still would of called it a clone. I wouldn't have the nerve or be stupid enough to try and hide all the things like body numbers and holes that are there for the 440 trim. Ok so it's a touchy subject and I won't even think of it again. I bought the rotton R/t for the manual steering and steering column and front sway bar. I got it for 500 bucks delivered. I wanted my own supply of little things like bolts and whatever clips might be useful. It also still has all the glass. Nothing wrong with having it around. I even used the inside of the the doors to make patches where somebody cut holes for speakers in my doors. It must of had an accident at some point and so the front fenders and hood were taken from a regular 69 coronet. I didn't even know it was an R/t until I researched the s/n and saw the holes in the tail made for the R/t tail trim. I am not an avid hobby person,  I have the one car that I want to enjoy for long time and I appreciate the help from you all so I can build it the way I want it. Until I live closer to family I want to make it affordable to drive and that's why I am looking for the easiest way to get an overdrive set up , manual or automatic, it doesn't matter but I do perfer manual and so I do like the suggestion of an a833OD. I do have most of my r/t parts including the bulge hood and I will post some pictures soon. I did try but they were too big and wouldn't up load. So, again, I apologize and if any of you have some hints about how I can easily set it up with another motor and trans or put something behind the current original 318 I thank you.

[68corazonetR/T]

Here is all have for now
Jack

[Tilar]

Thank-you everyone look I am sorry if there some of you got the wrong idea about my intent about this but if I wanted to deceive and sell my car as a real R/T do you think I would even post anything about this. It,s a clone , always will be. 

The part of your original post that made me think you were considering a VIN swap was what you said here:

I just want to know it's worth using this dash and s/n seeing that I have most of my clone parts now?

Cloning a car to an R/T or any other trim package is nothing more than adding the badging and trim.

What you have is looking pretty good there. 

[Old Moparz]

I found an owner ship in it signed where you sign when you sell

Depending on where you live, it seems that you have whatever papers you need to legally title it. (Or a transferable registration) As long as there isn't a newer one replacing the one you found, it should be all you need.

and also realized the fenders and hood were changed and that it actually is a 68 R/T green with a 440 (originally). It would of been geen in it's day. There was still one baby blue door pannel it.  No fender Tag. I am not crazy about painting my car green but I do know it does look good on these cars. I just want to know it's worth using this dash and s/n seeing that I have most of my clone parts now?

If the car has the dash VIN & can be titled, providing it doesn't have a more current paper trail, why not advertise it somewhere & sell it to offset the cost of the car you're fixing? Some people aren't afraid of rot boxes & can work miracles on them.  

[69CoronetRT]

Cloning a car to an R/T or any other trim package is nothing more than adding the badging and trim.

Sadly, this is what some people think 'clones' are.

A clone, by definition, is an exact duplicate of an original. Tossing R/T stripes or Road Runner stickers on a 318 Coronet 440 or Satellite model is not a 'clone'. Just installing a 440 or 383 does not make a clone. From what I've seen, most 'clones' are screwed up "usta be's" that are now "never was'es".

Why are people unhappy with what they have?

[Dans 68]

Self-esteem issues. 

Dan

[BIGBLCK11]

The VIN question is obviously not a good thing.  But, no offense to any old timers, I see nothing wrong with "upgrading" some of your options to an R/T, R/T SE or whatever.  Call it a partial-clone or maybe it is a nut & bolt clone.  Many here are happy with their 318 base model.  Many purists just wouldn't change a thing.  I wouldn't leave mine a 2bbl, column shift if you paid me money, just not as fun.  Yes, I am keeping the old parts, but I am going to change it.  It is after all a muscle car, so I am giving it more muscle.  There are always positive comments on here, about all the cars I see posted, but there is definitely a buzz around here for rare and/or well-optioned cars.  So, it is reasonable that some people, who may have started with a lower model, would want to build on that.  Especially, considering the cost of the cars that came with those options.  Not to mention, the muscle car era was fueled by wanting more power, to go faster and to beat or "out-do"(including looks/options) the competition.

[Old Moparz]

Why are people unhappy with what they have?

I hate the word clone, I prefer replica.   

As for why people build them, well, years ago we didn't build clones or replicas, we modified our cars to be the way we liked them. If what we could afford was only a Satellite instead of a Road Runner, or a GTX, then all that was needed was to add some parts from those cars like a performance hood, stripes, & maybe engines when we could afford it. Same goes for why people are building wing cars, who the hell can afford a car that has a price tag of a house? That's why I am piecing together a Daytona with replica parts & a basic 383-2V Charger. 

By the way, the VIN tag will always be a 383-2V Charger since I don't believe there is EVER a need to swap or replace tags.

[derailed]

Thats good looking Coronet you found there, I can see why it grabbed your attention, always liked the 68-9s myself. 

[69CoronetRT]

As for why people build them, well, years ago we didn't build clones or replicas, we modified our cars to be the way we liked them. If what we could afford was only a Satellite instead of a Road Runner, or a GTX, then all that was needed was to add some parts from those cars like a performance hood, stripes, & maybe engines when we could afford it......

BINGO...swapping a 440 for a 318/383 in your Satellite/Coronet 440 was always cool. Tossing on hood scoops was cool. Moving the column shift to the floor was cool. Replacing bench seats with buckets was cool. 'Rebranding' your car with fake stripes and badges, no matter how fast the car really was, was NEVER cool. You'd lose all street cred by being a poser.

[68corazonetR/T]

 I bought this car because it was rust free. Personally I like the bench, love the way they fold in on an angle, find it comfortable without the head rests, find it looks better without them , turning around and talking to people in the back is easy. I have had some fun nights with it as well as you might imagine. There's nothing like pulling up to a party or a bar and you and five friends get out it, I think that's pretty cool too. No I'm very happy with my car and I plan on making it look like an R/T and don't really care what people think because I know right now that's my focus. Getting it back in one piece. I'm sure you all know how easily it is to slip other engine under the hood. When the time is right that's what I will do. As for the Vin # well I admit I thought of it but only if it was something that is accepted, legal and if it added some kind of value to the car even though the numbers were not matching. OK so you all can stop yelling at me now..it was just a stupid thought when I discovered that this rotton gutted out car was an R/T which I have an ownership for and thought what a shame. I mean it's really been raped of all that it was.I could post a pic of it if you like looking at old carcases. I guess I could resurrect that car but that would really take lots of time and money. First thing to do would be too see if I can have it put in my name and check if it's even possible to register it. Then maybe I could sell it to somebody who could do a nice job because if I do it ....well it would most likely end up a rat car.....go out in a blaze of glory...something to play with....you know straighten some curves....flatting some fields....maybe see how it flies through the air with a small block......could be a lot of fun...otherwise it's going for scrap when I,m done with it.
Jack

[Old Moparz]

BINGO...swapping a 440 for a 318/383 in your Satellite/Coronet 440 was always cool. Tossing on hood scoops was cool. Moving the column shift to the floor was cool. Replacing bench seats with buckets was cool. 'Rebranding' your car with fake stripes and badges, no matter how fast the car really was, was NEVER cool. You'd lose all street cred by being a poser.

Poser......

Good point, & why I wouldn't change car names even though I would rather have a GTX over a Satellite. I'd never put a GTX emblem on it. I've felt this way since I was 17 & would be embarrassed being seen by other car enthusiasts pretending. It would be way more fun having a sleeper that others thought was just a 318 car, & then blow away a big block when the light turns green.

Although I may seem like a hypocrite saying that I'm changing a base Charger into a Daytona, but that's not the intent. In this case it's the simple fact of not having 6 figures for a car I want.

...otherwise it's going for scrap when I,m done with it.
Jack

Even if the car is a basket case, there would be someone interested in it.

Have you ever been to the Dodge Coronet forum?

http://www.dodgecoronet.com/forum/index.php

[BIGBLCK11]

Although I may seem like a hypocrite saying that I'm changing a base Charger into a Daytona, but that's not the intent. In this case it's the simple fact of not having 6 figure for a car I want.

....So, it is reasonable that some people, who may have started with a lower model, would want to build on that.  Especially, considering the cost of the cars that came with those options....

Not a 6 figure difference, but that is exactly what I was saying.  And yes, you would be making the GRAND MASTER of CLONES! No offense.
In many other posts the words "it's his car, he can do what he wants to it" ring true here.

[Old Moparz]

Not a 6 figure difference, but that is exactly what I was saying.  And yes, you would be making the GRAND MASTER of CLONES! No offense.
In many other posts the words "it's his car, he can do what he wants to it" ring true here.

No offense taken, & you'd have to try much, much harder than that to offend me, my skin is pretty thick. 

You're correct, I'm "cloning" or better still, "partially duplicating an appearance" to a car that won't be correct enough to ever be passed off as an original. It might look like it to the casual car enthusiast, but to anyone that has a deeper interest in the hobby, especially the Mopar part of it, it will be obvious that it's a Charger with some Daytona parts on it. I've never been one to care about originality, but I do respect the part of the hobby that does.

[Ghoste]

It is after all a muscle car, so I am giving it more muscle. 

I'd argue that it isn't actually a musclecar because otherwise you wouldn't need to swap "muscle" into it.  It is the very good looking base model upon which the muscle version was based but that fact doesn't automatically make it a musclecar.  It's like saying a trail horse is a race champion Thoroughbred that just needs to be bigger and faster.
That being said, I in way whatsoever disagree with you putting more muscle into your Charger.  I just didn't agree with your definition of musclecar was all.  Maybe I'm just overthinking it but it's my opinion.

[Alaskan_TA]

Just to toss it out there......

Clone / Cloning are insurance fraud  / law enforcement terms used when someone takes the desirable numbers / title form a wrecked or rusted car & uses them on a clean body in place of the numbers it had.

Clone / Cloning on  the hobbiest of the fence usually means making a base model appear as a HP model by adding badging or stripes. Tribute is a better word for this, because in the law enforcement world, clones are 'dirty'.

[BIGBLCK11]

This thread has definitely been derailed from the OP.  Cloning for fraud and deception is NOT acceptable!  I agree "tribute" or "replica" as stated above would be better terms. 

I'd argue that it isn't actually a musclecar because otherwise you wouldn't need to swap "muscle" into it.  It is the very good looking base model upon which the muscle version was based but that fact doesn't automatically make it a musclecar....

I wasn't trying to define all muscles cars, but yes you are right, my 383/2bbl/2.76 open had NO muscle.   Many people that see a 2nd gen. Charger on the road, including myself, want to see some muscle behind it, because it looks like it should have some.  Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate some spot-on original car with a 6 cyl. and very little power, it is just not want I want to drive.

You're correct, I'm "cloning" or better still, "partially duplicating an appearance" to a car that won't be correct enough to ever be passed off as an original. It might look like it to the casual car enthusiast, but to anyone that has a deeper interest in the hobby, especially the Mopar part of it, it will be obvious that it's a Charger with some Daytona parts on it. I've never been one to care about originality, but I do respect the part of the hobby that does.

I do appreciate the purists in this hobby, I just don't think that way(and I couldn't afford to).  I see your point about posing, if one was just to put on some stripes and badges on a base model.  But, if you owned a clean base model, couldn't afford an R/T SE and it was your favorite model of all time.  I wouldn't see an issue with turning that into a tribute either(including the HP mods).  But, it should never but put forth as an original.  One would have to live with saying yeah, it's not the real thing.  To me that is not a big deal, because I would no sooner add that stuff to impress anyone than not tell them it was converted to avoid some kind of embarrassment.  I would just change it to my taste, some would like it some would not, but I wouldn't care.  BTW, I am not adding any badges to mine.  Just some more power and a 4 speed.  I am leaving the base model bench seat for the old school look.  I wasn't trying to be overly opinionated here, just putting my thoughts out there.  It's all good!  I look forward to seeing more on your Daytona replica, I am sure it will be excellent!   I searched for some older posts on it, but you have been on here so long, I didn't have all day to keep looking through the pages of posts.

[69CoronetRT]

I do appreciate the purists in this hobby, I just don't think that way(and I couldn't afford to).  I see your point about posing, if one was just to put on some stripes and badges on a base model.  But, if you owned a clean base model, couldn't afford an R/T SE and it was your favorite model of all time.  I wouldn't see an issue with turning that into a tribute either(including the HP mods).  But, it should never but put forth as an original.  One would have to live with saying yeah, it's not the real thing.  To me that is not a big deal, because I would no sooner add that stuff to impress anyone than not tell them it was converted to avoid some kind of embarrassment.  I would just change it to my taste, some would like it some would not, but I wouldn't care.  BTW, I am not adding any badges to mine.  Just some more power and a 4 speed.  I am leaving the base model bench seat for the old school look.
 

Glad to hear you are just upgrading the drive train and not adding any badging. I have much more respect for the person that takes a car and customizes to their liking without changing the badging.

The only reason to add faux stripes and emblems is to make others think you have the real thing.

[BIGBLCK11]

   69CoronetRT.  Sorry, I should have included you in the quotes, you did bring up the "posing" first.

[68corazonetR/T]

  I will check out the Coronet site and see... probablly a good place to look for some trim. Here's a question for you guys....Lets say you have a real R/T but you had to rebuild it because it was taken apart like the rot that I have for parts and you put it together with some base model stuff....isn't that poser like?? I really haven't put much thought into this poser aspect of things, being blown away by whoever in whatever really hasn't crossed my mind because those days of street racing are behind me, that was something I did when I drove an 81 Z28 and sadly enough it was the real deal and guess what??? It didn't,t have the stripes and it didn't bother me because it had fresh paint, a fresh crazy engine that I built, T-tops and a 4speed. Going out with the boys doesn't happen very often anymore. Your not going to pull up beside a guy with a car full of kids and expect him to race are you? I need this car back on the road, we travel almost every weekend during the summer about 300kms or 186 miles if not more and I want to drive it. I joined this site because I thought it would be a good place to look into finding answers about some engine swaps and overdrive transmissions that I have been thinking about . And it is definitely is a good place for that. I have to find a way around this badge thing, I know that one of these days I will build another crazy engine for this car. You can't change the legs on a horse or swap his balls for that matter but you can certainly add swaybars, heavier Lief springs, torsion bars,and disc brakes to a car. Still that doesn't matter because it just isn't and I'm going to have to answere to people "no...it's not a real R/T" So what do you suppose I do ? I went out and I have an excellent pair of R/T taillights and a not so swell tail trim between them with the R/T badge. I really just like the way  the R/T looks, the same way scoops look better.  How is this Idea? Maybe it might seem weired but if I left a sign of it's orgin....like say  keeping the Dodge in the grill with the badge?  Or maybe not giving it a stripe???Something to let people know...I do hear what you guys are saying. I don't know.....really none of this is an issue until the paint is on it

[derailed]

Its your car and I would do it up however makes you happy. Sounds like you have some time to sit on it and think it over. You may change your mind and decide to leave it as it is except for whats under the hood. I have a 67 Lemans that ive owned for 20 something years. I often thought about cloning it into a Goat but never did, I always liked the Lemans tailights and louvers on the side. Right now im in the process of doing an LSX swap into the car so im looking for one of those factory Pontiac tissue dispensers for under the dash so I can hand out kleenex to all the teary eyed purist at the car shows when im done.

[TUFCAT]

 I will check out the Coronet site and see... probablly a good place to look for some trim. Here's a question for you guys....Lets say you have a real R/T but you had to rebuild it because it was taken apart like the rot that I have for parts and you put it together with some base model stuff....isn't that poser like?? I really haven't put much thought into this poser aspect of things, being blown away by whoever in whatever really hasn't crossed my mind because those days of street racing are behind me, that was something I did when I drove an 81 Z28 and sadly enough it was the real deal and guess what??? It didn't,t have the stripes and it didn't bother me because it had fresh paint, a fresh crazy engine that I built, T-tops and a 4speed. Going out with the boys doesn't happen very often anymore. Your not going to pull up beside a guy with a car full of kids and expect him to race are you? I need this car back on the road, we travel almost every weekend during the summer about 300kms or 186 miles if not more and I want to drive it. I joined this site because I thought it would be a good place to look into finding answers about some engine swaps and overdrive transmissions that I have been thinking about . And it is definitely is a good place for that. I have to find a way around this badge thing, I know that one of these days I will build another crazy engine for this car. You can't change the legs on a horse or swap his balls for that matter but you can certainly add swaybars, heavier Lief springs, torsion bars,and disc brakes to a car. Still that doesn't matter because it just isn't and I'm going to have to answere to people "no...it's not a real R/T" So what do you suppose I do ? I went out and I have an excellent pair of R/T taillights and a not so swell tail trim between them with the R/T badge. I really just like the way  the R/T looks, the same way scoops look better.  How is this Idea? Maybe it might seem weired but if I left a sign of it's orgin....like say  keeping the Dodge in the grill with the badge?  Or maybe not giving it a stripe???Something to let people know...I do hear what you guys are saying. I don't know.....really none of this is an issue until the paint is on it

Sorry to chime in, but.......paragraphs will make your posts more readable.

You have good posts, but they're very hard to read.  

[BIGBLCK11]

Yeah, I am not out street racing anyone.  Getting too old for that, not safe and the fines are high, save it for the strip.  A couple burnouts don't hurt though.  I am also not out to impress anyone, there is always someone faster.  The burnouts are fun, not to showoff power, however senseless that is and a waste of rubber.

Your question is tough to answer, because one probably wouldn't pose an R/T as a base model.  But, I think your point is, if you use parts from a base model on an R/T, it is not original.  I say that is correct.  It is a whole other can of worms and there is a recent thread on "survivor", but to me once you have replaced panels it is not original or a survivor, which "could" be deemed as posing as the original.  It goes back to not passing it off as anything other than what it is, which you said is not you intention.

I do need to put one thing out there, I said I was changing drivetrain and not badges, but my car already had a stripe added.  But, it doesn't have the R/T in it.  I do like the stripe and I won't be taking it off.  I think it looks cool, it certainly doesn't make it go faster and IMO doesn't make anyone think it is an R/T.  I may even do the 500 / R/T tail panel blackout, simply cause it will also look cool on a silver car.    

I also love the ribbed tail panel and the bumblebee stripes on a Coronet.  I looked at a 68 Coronet R/T and a 69 Super Bee, before getting the Charger.  The Super Bee wasn't a six pack, but had the Ramcharger hood and was rarer than my car.  You might even say the Ramcharger option was posing, since I read it added no HP, even though they look cool.  If that is incorrect, you'll have to shoot the author and not me.

In the end, you have to like it, so do it the way you want.  It looks to be in very nice shape.  It will be excellent either way.  

[68corazonetR/T]

  I like the word tribute. Thanks, this car has all the original panels, it even still has the wire covers that fold over along the floor still there with the tabs that hold them on. Of course it's not the original hood but I still have it.

  I don't need to make it an exact replica, just something close to that look and performance.  So depending on how it looks and the color on it I may or may not add the stripe. I am thinking of blanking Dodge out.... under the rear panel. Leaving it in the front..I added the front  sway bar from the R/T. I used the manual steering box and column shaft from it to make it work. Disc brakes are coming , rear sway bar, R/t torsion bars and rear springs are some of the things I have planned for it. Before I put a big block in it.
  Actually I was thinking by the time I'm ready for that there should be more newer  Hemies under buckled hoods.... I like the idea of staying light and 5 or even 6 speeds... But it's apparently not as easy as I thought it might be.....but still....I know it's been done and .."Right on" for whoever you are.
    R/T stands for road and track right? It's all about performance and although the Big Block was part of it.... well it wasn't everything. I still have the K frame from the R/T and so what I'm thinking of doing after it's painted and back on the road is building a complete set up on it....control arms and all... to make it an easy swap so that I can switch it up from year to year, depending on how I want to use it. Right now I'm thinking road trips so the 318 with overdrive would do good on the highway......LOL....I guess if the road is long enough I might be able to catch up to the bigblocks screaming for another gear.

   I know these cars need that torque if you really want to move fast but for now I think I should just do the minimal to this 318 to freshen it up. Like a set of headers ,an intake and a small four barell. I'm open to any suggestions... Built in 67 apparently gives it a steel crank and 9.20 :1.  Ratio with 230hp @ 4400 and torque is 340 @ 2400....That's with a 2 barrel.. Which isn't really far from the 73 440 I intended on putting in. The 440 would of definitely needed a rebuild to make it something worth having under the hood.