Battle: small block vs big block

[chargd72]

Read ALL before you get frustrated...

Let's say our Charger without an engine or tranny weighs 3,000 lbs.  I got some numbers of engine weight from the web (I'M NOT CLAIMING THEY ARE EXACTLY TRUE) but close enough to make a case.  440 is roughly 670 lbs, 340 is roughly 525 lbs.  727 Trans is roughly 136 lbs, 904 is roughly 95 lbs.  That brings our BB combo to 806 and our SB combo to 620.  A difference of 186 lbs.  Pop the BB combo into the Charger and get 3,806 lbs.  I'm going to use 1971 HP numbers and the BB unfortunetly gets the low compression version (just to make this a little more fair).  The low comp BB put out 330 hp and with weight of 3,806 that gives us a power to weight ratio of 1:11.5.  Now, replace the BB/727 for the 340 and 904  but it had to get some additions to reach the 330 hp, which if very possible, and now our Charger weighs 3,620.  Since our built up SB produces the same HP and weighs 186 lbs less, we get to add the effects of 1 HP for every 11.5 pounds it lost which is 16.17 HP.  Kind of cool!

Now, before everyone gets upset and says a lot of factors were not taken into account, I KNOW.  The TQ humbers haven't been considered, the BB could easily be build up too, etc, etc.  This is merely just to open up descussion.  And so some people put some thought into purchasing any old 440 or considering sticking with their SB. 

Sincerly,
A Small Block Fan

[Ghoste]

So you suggest that if you have a smallblock, it's better to build it up to a higher performance level than to get a low compression big block and just leave it stock because the built up sb will outperform the stock low comp big block?
That isn't exactly news.  I suggest getting the big block and putting an equal amount of money into it and enjoy the torque. 

[chargd72]

Nope, not suggesting or even trying to debate which is better.  Maybe only trying to go against the "there's no replacement for displacement" theory. 

I suggest getting the big block and putting an equal amount of money into it and enjoy the torque. 

I absolutely agree that this will always outperform   

[68X426]

Small blocks are fine ...... in grandma's four door. 

Just joking!!!!

It is a very good discussion. Lots of advantages to SBs. Look at what Brand X has accomplished for years. Mopar SBs are certainly under valued, unappreciated, and yet full of potential. Go ahead, keep making your case.

[Ghoste]

I think you've twisted too many things in your effort to make it a "fair" comparison.  For starters, the 340 came with a 727 so add a minor amount of weight.  Next, no matter how you slice it, you still have to factor in torque.
If your question was merely two identical 1971 Chargers, one equipped with a 440 and the other a 340 which would perform better?  Then you would open up some interesting comparisons.
Stock for stock and all things being equal, I'll put my money on the 440 with it's torque. But I'm just barely smart enough to know a good 340 may take my money.

[tan top]

seen 440 sb crate motors ,      paint them up to look like a 318 at a quick look    & supprise a few bigblocks 

[Ghoste]

Yes but a stroked out 500 cube big block looks like a lowly 383 at quick glance too.

[tan top]

Yes but a stroked out 500 cube big block looks like a lowly 383 at quick glance too.

D'oh 
good point Ghoste  

[BSB67]

Generally for B body type weight, 10 hp = 100 lbs = 1 mph = 0.1 sec for a high 12 sec street car (tire, converter, and gear).  The 186 lbs will be equivalent to about 20 hp  (your formula is 16 hp - close enough).

Also, generally speaking, making .9 hp/cu.in will cost about the same for each engine and is realistic to achieve.  So, if you already have both engines, after spending about the same amount of money to get to .9 hp/cu. in. (395 and 325 hp respectively), you'll have 70 more hp, the car will run the quarter 5 mph faster, and be about .5 sec. quicker with the 440 and the 186 lbs disadvantage.   Of course, the gap gets even wider as the hp/cu.in goes up.

[Troy]

In the same car, the 340 (275 hp) could typically hang right with the 383 (330-335 hp) in the 1/4 mile - and generally leave it in the dust through the twisties. Maybe the bigger/heavier cars didn't follow this pattern? Your 300 hp 440 would be mismatched but probably still has a big torque advantage. The 340 in the Challenger got the heavier suspension but I'm not sure about the other models so that also negates some of the weight not related to the engine/trans. The 340 always got upgraded to the 727 so you have to factor that in. Going completely non-stock would allow anything you wanted I guess. Stick an aluminum intake and heads on a 440 and you lose about 60-70 pounds. Add an aluminum water pump, radiator, and headers while dumping the power steering and brakes and you can really lighten up the front end. This works with either small or big block though so the weight advantage evens out.

I think the biggest bang-for-the-buck is a 'B' engine stroker since it's only about 130 pounds heavier than the small block and can be built with more cubes than the big block in a smaller package.

Troy

[Cooter]

I go through this one about once a week with the import VS Domestic guys...Yeah, that little 2.0 liter puts out 600 HP...And my 440 "Only" puts out about 400 HP...Your import is quicker right? Well, let's see what's being compared here..I think it's apples and oranges....


2.0 liter import making 600 HP is all but MAXED out, with a mondo TURBO that sounds like a twin engined Cesna when you give it throttle.
Lemme get the SAME mondo TURBO and we'll see who's got the upper hand...


Lemme see, a Small Block that's maxed out making 800 HP is quicker than say a 500 C.I. stroker Big Block making 600 HP right?

Well, let's see here...
Let's max out the Small Block Mopar @ 440 Cu. In. You guys have any kinda idea what kind of rod to piston ratio this motor has? It CAN'T be good...Gotta be trying to shove the piston's right outta the side of the block..This costs HP...(Friction loss, or Parasitic drag)

Now, this engine making say 650 HP MAXED out...All it'll do...DONE without a power adder right? Hell, let's give the lowly Small Block a chance, and give it 850 HP MAXED out, without a power adder, at something like 9,000 RPM...

Now, let's max out a Big Block @ say 655 Cu. In. (Afterall, the 440 SB has an after market block, so we gotta give an aftermarket block to the BB guys as well to be fair)
Now, this engine MAXED out, best effort without a power adder, say 1200 HP? @ say 7500 RPM?

There is a replacement for displacement in some folks eyes, it's called Nitorus, Turbo, Supercharger....Just remember the next time you are thinking that, that the BB Also gets whatever you give the Small Block, the BB just BEGAN with more....Handicaps have no place in the SB VS BB...All is fair...
SO, Torque is what gets that heavy beast of a 1972 Charger moving, NOT HP...
And with the advent of lighter rotating assy's, blocks, heads, the Big BLock can actually weigh the same as a small block...
There will always be people that tend to lend their loyalties to the "underdog" and in the eyes of collectors and gear heads, the Hemi and BB 440 is king, with the lowly smal lblock running a close third...I simply go for the biggest and baddest engine to come from the Mopar family..the 440...,

Bottom line? When all else is equal, yee who begins with the bigger engine, ends with the bigger engine...No Contest...

I know guys that will spend $30K in order to be able to say these few little words come race day...
"Wow! I just CRUSHED your Big Block Stroker with my "Lowly Small Block!"
Ok, so you just out ran an $8000.00 Big Block stroker, with a $30K Small Block?...Hmmmmm, Even I can see this one...

[RallyeMike]

Nope, not suggesting or even trying to debate which is better.  Maybe only trying to go against the "there's no replacement for displacement" theory. 

Have you noticed the explosion in stoker crate motors and kits (big and small block)? Y

ou might get more people to believe the sky is green that small displacement is where it's at.

[chargd72]

Once again I'll state the purpose of my post wasn't trying to argue that small blocks are where its at. I was simply impressed that 186 lbs would even yeild that much difference lugging these big boats around. I know that 340s came with 727s, I just used the 904 because it CAN work. I should have used the engine combos in a little red wagon to be more clear.
I hope it's obvious to anyone reading this that the same amount of money put forth in any build it's always best to start with a larger ci if you're looking for all out performance. Bsb67 took the discussion in the direction I was looking for.

[Tom Q]

it's about horsepower to weight ratio

How much does an an aluminum head bb 505 six pak stroker weigh vs an aluminum head sb416?

I know a 416 alum head sb 6 pak will make 400 reliable rear wheel hp at 6000 rpm

89 cubic inch difference

Assuming the same hp vs cubic inch ratio the bb will make 485 rwhp at 6000rpm. 85 more hp or so lets say 100 for argument sake. How much more weight for the extra 100 hp? 

[Ghoste]

Torque will play a role too.

[chargd72]

I should have used the engine combos in a little red wagon to be more clear.

That didn't make it anymore clear...  I actually meant a red wagon like a radio flyer, not a power wagon, oops.

And yes Ghoste, going head to head tq will always play a significant role and that's the huge divider between the two.  Even with the power to weight ratio Small Blocks will always lack in that department even when matched with a low HP big block. 

[Ghoste]

I hope this doesn't sound argumentative because that isn't my intent, but, I guess I still don't understand the discussion.  I thought your point was that by building up the 340 and adding a lighter transmission that it would be a better choice than a low compression stock 440.  That was what I took from it anyway.   And on that point I (wouldn't everyone?) agree, I was merely replying that you have to compare apples to apples.
I think I missed completely what you are driving at though, haven't I?

[chargd72]

I was absolutely comparing apples to oranges.  Big Blocks and Small Blocks are completely different entities and my point was the obvious one you pointed out.  My interest was only in sharing how much a lighter application can give you in numbers (HP only, not tq), which was surprising to me.             

Also, we see a lot of people think they need a 440 to have a bad ass machine that they are going to be driving on the streets everyday.  I was just pointing out the other areas of potential to consider.  I was not stating that it is an all out a better performing engine, just that SBs can be beastly in their own sense.   

[Ghoste]

Maybe it isn't apples to oranges either, maybe it's big apples and small apples?

[Cooter]

Unfortunately, there's simple "unwritten" rules Mopar people HAVE to face eventually..A Small Block won't hold a candle to a Big Block in terms of originality values, HP/Torque (When everything else is equal), and the HEMI will ALWAYS out shine the 440 even though back in the day, a 440-6 would eat a HEMI's lunch on the street most of the time time...

I thought this one was about "No Replacement for displacement"..The answer is simple when EVERYTHING being equal, there IS NONE..You start with more than the other guy, so you will finish with more..You love Small Blocks, I love Big Blocks..Some will Spend $30K on a 340 some will spend $50K on a HEMI...To try and discuss the SB Vs BB issue in reguards to HP/weight, IMO, is a simple as this...If the SB was all there was a need for, then the 350 Big Block would have never been invented back in 1958...You cannot stack the odds in favor of the small block no matter how you slice it here..The BB will always come out on top again, everything equal...Now a 340 with 275 HP in a Go-Kart against a Smogger 250 HP 1978 440 in a 1978 Chrysler New Yorker? No contest, but here again, the BB and SB aren't being compared equally..

[Mike DC]

            

My two cents is that you can't get an engine too lightweight.  

We think a big block is "light" with aluminum heads & intake but a lot of handling buffs would laugh at the idea.  The guys that are truly into sports cars & handling will look at a 450-lb all-aluminum smallblock V8 and wince at the weight "penalty" over a similar V6.  

Even in a car like an old Charger, it would be a real eye-opener if we could magically try driving it with the entire drivetrain weight taken out.  These car bodies aren't really that heavy for their size.  They just end up feeling heavy because we put a huge chunk of cast iron in the front end.  

[flyinlow]

One advantage of the small blocks in Mopars is that the A 518 or A 500 trans bolts to a 318/360 engine easily. Now with the .69 OD you can run a much lower gear and still have a good all around performing street car.

A couple years ago when I was Painting the car I drove it to a buddys garage. The hood,fenders,bumpers,doors, and deck where off the car, just the basic unibody/powertrain and seats. About 6 miles of  country roads with a car several hundred pounds lighter than normal.  So this is what a 500Hp Dart feels like. Got some funny looks ,none from the cops luckily.

[elacruze]

           

My two cents is that you can't get an engine too lightweight.  

We think a big block is "light" with aluminum heads & intake but a lot of handling buffs would laugh at the idea.  The guys that are truly into sports cars & handling will look at a 450-lb all-aluminum smallblock V8 and wince at the weight "penalty" over a similar V6.  

Even in a car like an old Charger, it would be a real eye-opener if we could magically try driving it with the entire drivetrain weight taken out.  These car bodies aren't really that heavy for their size.  They just end up feeling heavy because we put a huge chunk of cast iron in the front end.  

How about that aluminum-blocked 170" turbo slant 6?

[SRT-440]

So this is what a 500Hp Dart feels like.

Tho not "500hp" I have a '71 Dart with a mild 440 in it and the torque is amazing but it's like driving on a ice patch year around and at almost any speed..LOL.
It's silly fun but a 340,360 or even *gasp* a 383 would be a better overall performer in this light car. So, sometimes bigger isn't always better.

[Ghoste]

If the original question were changed to include handling it becomes a much broader field of discussion for sure.  I wonder if the difference in weight between a stock 440 and stock 340 would make an enormous handling change. 

[Troy]

If the original question were changed to include handling it becomes a much broader field of discussion for sure.  I wonder if the difference in weight between a stock 440 and stock 340 would make an enormous handling change. 

I don't know about enormous but I'd be comfortable with "very noticeable". I have been reasonably surprised at the performance of the Challenger (1st E-body I've owned with a big block) but it's by no means "tossable" on the back roads that I like to drive on. As I stated earlier, the 340 cars got heavier suspension and would pretty much run away from similarly equipped 383 models through curves. For what it's worth, the door sticker on my 340 Challenger says 3,260 pounds.

Troy

[chargd72]

If the original question were changed to include handling it becomes a much broader field of discussion for sure.  I wonder if the difference in weight between a stock 440 and stock 340 would make an enormous handling change. 

I have heard multiple claims that you can feel a difference in the handling.  To what extent, I'm not sure.  Also,  I wonder how much the weight difference would be noticed in the brakes.  That difference in weight up front where it counts could really have an effect on how much later you can brake before a turn. 

[Ghoste]

Do you think those differences would be more noticed in a smaller car like a Dart?  Or shorter wheelbase cars such as the Cuda?

[Rayzor]

Since my 68 was a original slant six car, I feel I can add to the weight vs, handling.  Im not sure how much more the 440 I swapped in weighs but I would guess over two hundred pounds then the slant. The steering is now alot heavier, the fronts break loose sooner and the car wallows in the corners alot more. I have added better sway control and torsion bars but have yet to come back to the light handling. But on that note I can steer now with the back tires and the torque!  

[SRT-440]

I noticed a difference when I went from a 318 to a 440 in my '71 Dart...with the 318 it handled better and just rode better (if that makes any sense). Now, it's a bit nose heavy and clumsy feeling...the torque is great but makes that car pretty useless when it comes to hooking up. My 92 year old grandmother in her '79 Lebaron could prolly take me from stop light to stop light..LOL. It needs to be mini tubed with some drag radials...even tho spinning the tires at almost any speed is fun it makes for a slow racer.

I'd be willing to bet a built 340 or 360 or even *gasp* a 383 would allow the car to perform better over all and not in just the torque department. 300hp that gets put to the ground will always beat 400+hp that can't get to the ground. 

[chargd72]

Great info guys!  Fifth gear did a shootout between the Dukes Charger vs Starsky & Hutch Torino.  It was on a track with plenty of turns, straight aways and chicanes to test all areas of performance.  I think we all know the winner of that matchup    A test like that between the SB and a BB would be ideal to see where each has its place.

[SRT-440]

That chic that did the Fifth gear episode was prolly the lamest driver they could have gotten...when she said she couldn't get the chargers rear to break loose around the corners I knew she shouldn't be behind the wheel. Next time they should make sure the driver can see over the steering wheel before they let them test there cars. 

But an all around sb vs bb shoot-out would be great...both being in "street trim" no slicks and built the same..either both "stock" or both "modded"..no stock vs modified. 

[Ghoste]

It would be fun.  Myabe we need to start a write in lobby campaign to get them to try it.

[chargd72]

That chic that did the Fifth gear episode was prolly the lamest driver they could have gotten...when she said she couldn't get the chargers rear to break loose around the corners I knew she shouldn't be behind the wheel. Next time they should make sure the driver can see over the steering wheel before they let them test there cars. 

But an all around sb vs bb shoot-out would be great...both being in "street trim" no slicks and built the same..either both "stock" or both "modded"..no stock vs modified. 

Yeah, I was hoping she wasn't the driver for the REAL test since she was leisurely talking to the camera as she putted around the track, but who knows. 

Ghoste, I think you're on to something...   

[Mike DC]

I've wondered what a 2nd-gen Charger would feel like if you ran one of those GM/Rover aluminum V8s in it.  Rover got them up near 300 cubic inches and they only weigh about 320 pounds.  Combine that with a lightweight tranny like a powerglide or something, use some aftermarket suspension parts, convert it to R/P steering(which would be better suited to the car when the front end is lightened) . . . you're probably looking at almost 500 pounds lost from the front end.  And that's before you even get into classic lightening mods like changing the body panels or stripping down the luxuries.

[morepower]

Deffinately big block. You have more future potential power. and its just not the same when someone asks you whats in that thing...440 sounds waaaay better than 340

[Ghoste]

I knew a guy once that had a well warmed 340 in a late 60's B-body and he had one of those Holley 500cfm two barrels on it.  He told everyone it was a 318 two barrel with headers and surprised the hell out of a lot of brand X cars with it.  I know he'd insist that the fun factor in that alone was worth having the smallblock. 

[Cooter]

Deffinately big block. You have more future potential power. and its just not the same when someone asks you whats in that thing...440 sounds waaaay better than 340

Amen Brother...This is why most 440-500 C.I. A Bodies round here usually show you the mufflers when they leave, as they have TIRE under them...If I wanted to road race a vehicle/carve canyons/etc. I'd have bought my IROC back..Loved the car, handled like a dream, but it just didn't have it in the stop light to stop light challenges...Nobody I know of here, "Road Races" and if they do, they usually end up like the post a while back with those two racing up that mountain with the people walking along side the road. Most everybody here does the Point a to point B when referring to performance and Small block  VS Big Block...Big Blocks rule this area.(Everything else being equal). I got a Slant 6 3-speed Dart sedan, it handled like sh*t when it had the slant 6 and once the Big Block was in it it STILL handled like Pure D sh*t...

[Cooter]

I know he'd insist that the fun factor in that alone was worth having the smallblock.  

As stated before, I know ALOT of guys that will spend ungodly amounts of money for that sole reason too...

[morepower]

Deffinately big block. You have more future potential power. and its just not the same when someone asks you whats in that thing...440 sounds waaaay better than 340

Amen Brother...This is why most 440-500 C.I. A Bodies round here usually show you the mufflers when they leave, as they have TIRE under them...If I wanted to road race a vehicle/carve canyons/etc. I'd have bought my IROC back..Loved the car, handled like a dream, but it just didn't have it in the stop light ot stop light challenges...Nobody I know of here, "Road Races" and if they do, they usually end up like the post a while back with those two racing up that mounhtain with the people walking along side the road. Most everybody here does the Point a to point B when referring to performance and Small block  VS Big Block...Big Blocks rule this area.(Everything else being equal). I got a Slant 6 3-speed Dart sedan, it handled like sh*t when it had the slant 6 and once the Big Block was in it it STILL handled like Pure D sh*t...

haha a man of my own blood. I have a 89 camaro I drive daily that handles well so im point A to B in straight line thinking with the charger also...NOTHING sounds better than a big block MOPAR driving down the block, or idleing around in traffic...I get chills thinking about mine runnning again.....

[68corazonetR/T]

  This very interesting to me because I just sold a complete engine and transmission (1974 Labaron 440) to a guy who I believe isn't going to do much to it other than dress it up and make it look good, drop it into a challenger and hope for the best. He might get lucky and I hope he does get some years out it.  My intent was to rebuild it and to raise the compression ratio and put in my Coronet but when I really got looking at all the facts it was going to take a lot to make it anything else otherthan a boat anchor and this includes beefing up the suspension to handle the weight. If your going to go from small to big you must add the torsion bars and springs to get right. Turning up the smaller torsion bars in my books is a big no no. I like what Flying low said because I did the exact same thing with mine with its 318....ran it with the car stripped of everything over to a buddies for resto work and man what a noticeable difference. I like the small blocks for this reason.... the cars handle real nice with them. I imagine it would be stiff as hell but imagine how well a SB will handle with BB suspension. In my case I think I made the right choice to stick with the steel crank original 1968 318 and maybe tweak it up a bit. But in the end A car built right and a 440 built right with a 5 speed would make me drool. The torque really is what gets those wheels turning.

[Cooter]

"Beefing up the suspension to "Handle" the weight"...BS myth...I has a 505" stroker sittin' on Slant 6 front suspension right now, and I had to lower it to get the ride height where I wanted it..Sure, it's not gonna take a curve at 120 MPH, but then again, not many stock suspensioned R/T cars will either...And you are correct, no, Mopars are not as easy top convert as say Chevy. "Why certainly, you can take out that 150 HP 305 and BOLT IN your 650 HP, 468 BB Chevy right to that T 350 trans"...No, if you prefer things this easy, then maybe brand X is your speed.


"imagine how well a SB will handle with BB suspension." Ok, now imagine how a BB car will handle with aftermarket RACING suspension, built for this type thing?

This discussion is NOT about handling...It's about HP to weight and whether there actually is a replacement for displacement..

[68corazonetR/T]

  Look up because it was mentioned and so I'm putting my 2 cents in....You can crank your slant six torsion bars up or down as much as you like with a big block but look into this before you call it a mith... There are reasons to why things are the way they are.... torsional strength....don't go too far cause she's gonna break or deform... spring rate and range are important. I agree with you about your theory though....you start out bigger you can end up bigger and so there is no replacement...
  To the guy who started this discussion.....
My higher compression 318 vs the 74 low compression 440 and bang for your buck, I can put a little money into this engine and maybe get a little closer to the Hp of the 440. I think the same amount of money in the 440 wouldn't go far and I would have to spend money on the suspension if I wanted it to feel right and keep it on the road.....for the time being this is why I opted to get rid of the 440. For the price and when the time is right I might buy a crate engine and save myself the hassle

[Troy]

Who said it wasn't about handling? Lots of drag racers use the Slant 6 torsion bars and no sway bar with a big block - and with skinny tires on front there's no way those cars are safe on the street (spirited driving or not). I don't race so I do think it's very important to swap in the heavier suspension and brakes with the big block. That has to be taken into consideration in anything other than a pure drag car.

Weight is a killer an any kind of racing. This is why guys stick big block in Darts instead of Imperials if they're serious about competing at the drags. It's also why SCCA racing is full of 150 hp Miatas, 240 SXs, and RX-7s instead of full size cars.


The 340 Challengers got the heavy duty suspension as part of the package. That's one reason the 383 had no chance against them on the back roads.

A street stroker 340/360 can put out the same HP/torque as a stock 426 Hemi (for about the cost of Hemi heads too) yet weighs 300 pounds less. For a full-blown race motor the big block has the advantage purely because it can be built bigger. At the 700-1,200 hp range I'm not sure the weight of the block is your biggest concern.

Troy

[Ghoste]

I had the small bars in a big block B-body many years ago and I sure didn't find it to always feel safe in "spirited" street driving.

[Mike DC]

                       
             
I don't think the soft T-bars in front are the handling problem so much as the undersized front swaybar.

The T-bar & LCA setup puts the spring pressure on the chassis pretty far inward from the wheels.  It needs the swaybar action much more than a car with coil springs mounted outside the front framerails.   

 

[Ghoste]

Whichever one affected it more, what I most recall is the attention needed over 50mph once you got into roads with a lot of turning and it wasn't fun.  It didn't feel dangerous, just not normal or relaxed the way a proper big Dodge was.  The engineers spec those components for a reason I suppose.

[Mike DC]

                                          
Yeah, the engineers weren't dummies.  Sometimes we act like we're smarter just because we know how to improve something now but we rarely see it through the appropriate eyes.  Those unibodies and suspensions were originally as stiff as the stock tires could take advantange of.  It's only modernized radial tires and less cost-cutting per car that have really allowed us to raise the bar on them.  



As for the T-bar and swaybar thing, it's all about where the T-bars are pushing up on the chassis.  In this case it's the inner pivot point of the LCA.

Think of it this way.  Imagine if we're trying to hold up the front end of the car with coil springs.  Putting a huge 2000-lb spring under the center of the K-frame is not as stable as using a pair of 1000-lb springs with one under each LCA.  Same total spring force under the front end, different effects on body roll.  
                   
                       

[elacruze]

Hm. Suspension is complicated.

Think of a cross section slice through the wheel bearings of your front hubs. Consider the contact patch of the tire, LCA pivot, engine position, etc. Now think about your rear suspension in a drag race perspective. You have all the same considerations. Traction, leverage points, center of mass, instant center etc.

The taller your tires, the more leverage they have against the LCA. Thus, when you corner the suspension will tend to lift more-steering inputs make fast changes in lift during compression which is why soft cars feel unsettled while steering in corners. Raising your trim height changes the center of mass, instant center, and increases the effective tire height in relation to LCA length.

Aluminum heads lower and reduce the center of mass of the engine. Thus, it has less leverage against the suspension and the car will roll less. Moreso for a small-block, etc.

Anti-Sway bar; think backwards. The bar can't contribute anything with one end detached-what's happening when the car rolls, is the bar tries to compress the opposite side to stay straight; that transfers high-side spring rate through the bar to the compressed side and pulls the entire center of mass lower as well by the frame mounts.

That should make it clear why generally the better a car handles, the lower it is, short tires, long control arms, light motors and stiff suspension.

Or not.

[68corazonetR/T]

      Positions to where  things connect will matter but guys the same rules apply here as when your talking cubic inches...if you start out bigger you can end up bigger. Just now were talking how rigid a car will be and how the geometry works.
           I am out of the automotive trade, for a while now but I do remember some things and  listening to some pretty smart people when I took the course.
You know when you push on a coil spring... it has a little give to it. How much it goes down with certain force. Spring Rate. With coils they can change the distance between the coils to give you a softer ride a the top of your travel. Not so with torsion bars...well maybe if they were tapered but I don't think so.
   
  What you have with a set of slant six bars is a car with a different spring rate or softer ride....it's still going to hold the car up but with more stress and a shorter life.  If there was such a thing... would you put a set in from a four cylinder?

Back to the original topic I think what chargd is saying about throwing any old 440 in.. applies with what I have. The 73 440 Had a ratio 8.20 : 1 and produced with it's four barrel                                                           280hp @ 4400 and torque is 350 @ 2400.
My 67 318 ... with a 2 barell , a ratio of 9.2 : 1 produced       230 hp @ 4400 and torque is 340 @2400
  So I figure with less money and work I can get some good bang for my buck.  But still theres no question the 440 could be built into a monster... and maybe a set of better pistons would of done wonders but now we are talking about a rebuild
I believe that my 318 has a steel crank and so it might just have some real potential.
Jack

[elacruze]

                                         
As for the T-bar and swaybar thing, it's all about where the T-bars are pushing up on the chassis.  In this case it's the inner pivot point of the LCA.

Think of it this way.  Imagine if we're trying to hold up the front end of the car with coil springs.  Putting a huge 2000-lb spring under the center of the K-frame is not as stable as using a pair of 1000-lb springs with one under each LCA.  Same total spring force under the front end, different effects on body roll.  
                   

Not exactly-your example assumes basically a weight balanced on a single spring or between two. You have to consider the torsional rigidity of the car, and the effect of the rear wheels too; if the car was perfectly stiff, there would be no difference between coils outboard and torsion bars inboard. The biggest difference as driven is that in Chrysler cars, the shock towers/inner fenders don't have to bear the burden of spring load. Remember how Camaros and Mustangs had to have fenderwell braces so they didn't fold up? They put all the front suspension forces through those points, and suffered for it. Chryslers transferred those forces to the middle of the assembly and spread it out over a much larger area. The shock towers bore only the burden of shock absorbers, and the inner fenders only serve as stiffeners for the front frame stubs.

[Mike DC]

Yeah I realize that about the forces being held low in the chassis.  The T-bar setup really reduced the need for shock tower structure on these cars 

We also see the issue come up with the coilover conversions for these cars.  They don't go over too well unless the unibody's shock towers are reinforced.    (Although the RMS AlterKtion setup avoided the issue nicely with those upper spring mounts on the K-frame itself.)

IMHO the thing about the T-bars having less leverage against body roll was a wise thing overall.  A car with less leverage in front and more in the rear has a built-in tendency to understeer as the body rolls.  Maybe it's not as relevant to us now with all the aftermarket options we have today.  But in the 1960s they were tuning the suspension for safe understeer even on cars with no swaybars at either end.  We have to remember the engineers were designing this same basic setup for every car Mopar was making in that era.  The compacts, the sedans, station wagons, luxo-barges, etc.

   

[Ghoste]

As I think back on it, another not too small factor in that old car that I mentioned was that I likely had bias ply tires on it.

[68corazonetR/T]

Old Timers....Yuz had all the fun!   What's a biass tire anyway.....Jk
Anybody know why my icons don't work...... guess I'm no spring chicken ether  Looks like the battle is over and the Thread is dead

[68corazonetR/T]

Ohh WOW They do work 

[suntech]

These car bodies aren't really that heavy for their size.  They just end up feeling heavy because we put a huge chunk of cast iron in the front end.

How about replacing ALL cast iron with aluminum  That is well over 200 pounds shaved off the nose right there
Lots of cubes and torque, and low weight.......at least compared to a cast iron motor!

[Mike DC]

                            
Yeah, I wonder how low the engine weight could go with all aluminum motors.  Under 500 lbs seems do-able even for the 1960s based motors.

It would be nicer if we had a (streetable) aluminum version of the 340/360 block.  We don't have it and I doubt it's coming any time soon.  

But if you built a B-based wedge motor as opposed to the higher deck RB variant, and made that all aluminum . . . possibly in the 450 pound range?  That's down near aluminum Chevy SB weight and you could punch the displacement well over 500 inches.      

   

[Ghoste]

Aren't there examples out there of B-bodies with lightweight everything in the front end?

[suntech]

Yeah, I wonder how low the engine weight could go with all aluminum motors.  Under 500 lbs seems do-able even for the 1960s based motors.

I read somwhere here, and i think it was you Mike that posted it, that a standard BB was in the ballpark of 670 lbs, so i think 450 is possible then.

Aluminium block is 142 versus 309 for cast iron, so there is a 167 lbs saved just there. another 55 or so on heads, inlet manifold and waterpump?
That´s in the ballpark of 220 lbs saved just on motor!
Then an aftermarket front suspention can save 65 lbs, and a carbon hood another 40, and aluminum rad 10 more.
That is over 330 lbs lost, and ALL  of it just over the front wheels.
Then move the battery ( 40 lbs?) in the trunk, to help balance, an you would have a car 33o lbs lighter ( 370 lbs lighter on the nose, and 40 heavier on rear).

If i use the # from when i was on the scale with my car at the DOT, with me sitting in the car, and 3 gallons of fuel: 2155 front
                                                                                                                                                                      1650 rear

Just with these mods it would be: 1785 front
                                              1690 rear     
This would give us a weight distrebution of approx. 51,5% front/ 48,5% rear!!! Not bad for a 40 + year old ride..... and there is more to do to get it even closer to 50/50, without adding weight!

[Mike DC]

Okay now I'm curious.  Gonna start thinking . . .

Aluminum block is 142 versus 309 for cast iron

The aluminum numbers I've heard for RB blocks are either 133 or 142.  Maybe it's the different brands.  

309 is too high for the iron block numbers though.  The stock B and RB blocks are more like 215 and 230 pounds.  (But I would believe 300+ pounds for the beefed-up reproductions of the stock iron blocks.)  


The (wedge) cylinder heads alone can lose 50-60 pounds when they are switched to alloy.  The weight loss figure for the alloy intake/water pump/housing & tube headers & mini-starter  . . . that would probably add up more like 100 pounds total.  So figure 80 pounds off the block and 100 pounds off everything else.

If you did a low-deck stroker wedge motor (they do make low-deck versions of the aluminum wedge blocks now, don't they?) then you might be as low as 460-480 pounds.  Pretty amazing when you consider how much power comes from a decent 500+ inch Mopar wedge.

[suntech]

The weights i mentioned is the weights that was listed on the World Product website, for the Mopar Wedge/ Hemi block.
Vent to the website now, and the cast iron block was not listed, but i am positive it was listed with weight 309 lbs when it was there!!

[suntech]

The weights i mentioned is the weights that was listed on the World Product website, for the Mopar Wedge/ Hemi block.
Vent to the website now, and the cast iron block was not listed, but i am positive it was listed with weight 309 lbs when it was there!!

One thing is for sure......i WILL weigh the old 383, and i WILL weigh the new 611  ......like i am going to do with everything else i pull off and put on the car

[Ghoste]

One source I have lists the low deck block as being around 225 lbs.
Needless to say I think we all look forward to your real world measurements.

[firefighter3931]

The weights i mentioned is the weights that was listed on the World Product website, for the Mopar Wedge/ Hemi block.
Vent to the website now, and the cast iron block was not listed, but i am positive it was listed with weight 309 lbs when it was there!!

I have a world iron block and it weighs 300lbs bare. Stock RB blocks are 230lbs so there's a 70lb weight increase. Thats the price you pay for increased strength and larger cubic inches 

An all aluminum Hemi is still going to be fairly heavy....those big heads and all that additional rocker gear add up on the scale. It might be slightly lighter than a cast iron 383 but not by much. A buddy has an all aluminum 547 hemi and he told me it's no lightweight 


Ron

[Ghoste]

So an elephant on a diet is still an elephant?

[suntech]

So an elephant on a diet is still an elephant?

Hehe, i guess so!

So Ron, what you are saying is that the standard cast iron block i have(383) is app 230 lbs bare ?

[Bob T]

I grabbed the weights off another site.

Slant Six = 475lbs (215kg)
273-340ci V8 = 525lbs (238kg)
360ci = 550lbs (249kg)
361-383-400ci = 620lbs (281kg)
413-426W-440ci = 670lbs (303kg)
426 Street Hemi = 765lbs (346kg)
Alloy Hemi 528ci (assembled) = 470 lbs (213kg)


Back to the Rover ali 4.2, not bad, they were using them out here as race boat motors in the day, good power to weight, but orphans really , not much available for them .

[Ghoste]

Those are dressed weights though not bare blocks.  Which one were we trying to establish?  (or does it even matter?)

[firefighter3931]

Those are dressed weights though not bare blocks.  Which one were we trying to establish?  (or does it even matter?)

Exactly  

I was reading an older PHR magazine with an all aluminum ICH 572 Hemi build and the long block assembly was listed at 535 lbs. No waterpump/housing, no carb, no distributor, no headers/manifolds.


Ron

[suntech]

I guess since we are talking about total weight of car, drivability and weight distribution, the interresting thing must be the weight of the complete engine 

[Ghoste]

Ultimately yes but I thought we were just trying to break down the weight of some of the individual components and the bare block was the one we were having trouble with.

[suntech]

True Ghoste

There is also a lot of different weights on intakes etc that can play a factor. I think mine will be light, with aluminum runners, and carbon fibre plenum. Going fuel injected.

[Hissing Cobra]

To me, it's more a question of total weight vs. horsepower. Yes, torque does play a role but in order to move the car, you need proper gearing and a suspension/tire package that are worthy of taking advantage of that extra torque. All too often, I see people at the track with big blocks on skinny tires that run high 13's where they should be in the high 11's or low 12's. Most people forget that it's the ENTIRE package that makes a car what it is and not the fact that it's a big block that makes huge horsepower numbers.

I have a friend who own's a big block 455/Turbo 400 powered '72 Buick GS. His engine is built about as well as it can possibly be built and still be streetable. By streetable, I mean, the ability to drive it anywhere at anytime. Cruise nights, car shows, track rentals, Ice Cream outings, etc... He's making 368 naturally aspirated rear wheel horsepower, which equates to well over 400 at the flywheel and is well in excess of what his car was rated at when it was brand new (360 at the crank). His best time at the track has been a 12.90 @ 105 with crappy gears. For some reason, he can't understand how my naturally aspirated 306 powered '79 Mustang Cobra can outrun his "big block", especially since mine "only" makes 307 rear wheel horsepower. The answer is very simple. My car weighs 2,950 pounds vs. the 4,000+ pounds that his car weighs and my power to weight ratio is much more efficient.

The argument about "Big Blocks vs. Small Blocks" shouldn't really be compared at all as it'll be a never ending argument with nothing really proved. Sure, there are a lot of big blocks that will kill a small block equipped car, but there's plenty of small blocks that'll kill a big block powered car as well. It's all about power to weight ratio, maximizing the combination, and driver skill more than the size of the engine or the horsepower numbers.