MY RANT ON MEMBERS FOR PROFIT !

[skip68]

Just my 2cents...
First let me start by saying I have NO beef with anyone making a buck (aka car & parts flippers.)  
What I DO have a beef with is guys allowed to post in the wanted section to buy (snag deals) here and then turn around and sell them here for a profit.   I find that tacky.  
The reason I bring this up is because I see the same names constantly buying and selling.    AGAIN, I have no problem with flipper/dealers....   I just have a problem with these guys grabbing a deal that should go to a member instead of cash in these guys pockets...
THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS POSTING IN THE WANTED SECTIONS....

I think that if they are going to use this site as a business for profit that's fine but they need to give a percentage to Troy.   In the past I have looked at their post and they contribute nothing, hence they are here for only money.

I know it's not illegal but, to me it's morally wrong and tacky.  I feel if they are going to sell like a dealer then they must go through Troy like any other dealer/vender would in order to conduct their business here.    Sorry guys, but as a long time member I find some of your methods tacky.  

[charger Downunder]

Good point I here you 

[68X426]

I agree.  Yes, taking advantage of the Troy's good will.

However .... just for the sake of discussion ..... if the new owner buys the item at $100, and then relists/sells it at $200, how is that morally wrong?  

The original owner could have (should have) listed for $200. Where is the immorality in listing and re-selling for what turns out to be the correct price ? (Correct price defined as what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller.) My opinion: save morality analysis for weightier matters than reselling parts at a correct price.

Immoral to sell at $200? I don't see it because the buyer and seller are both willing and knowledgeable participants in an open and free marketplace. Again, I agree it is distasteful behavior, and that the seller is actually a dealer, who should have a different set of rules for how they market. But the act of selling an item for a profit is not immoral. (unless of course the item is stolen).

Also consider that the new seller could very well misread the market and eventually sell at $50. The new seller is taking plenty of financial risk with their buy/sell operation, and they can lose money as well as score. Is it immoral to sell an item at a loss? Would Troy owe them something because of the loss?

Just food for thought.

Now lets talk about HP ink jet cartridges, lawyers, movie theater tickets and pro basketball contracts!  

[Silver R/T]

I do agree it's wrong to make profit on fellow Charger owners. If you want to make money, list it on ebay. That way it's fair to everyone. You'll pay listing fee and then more people have a chance to own a part.

[Troy]

I think his point is that, many times, a person will sell a part cheaper here to help out a fellow Charger owner - not because they're trying to get rich. If it were only about money then, yes, the original seller would be better off selling on eBay or listing it at "market value". It's nice to offer parts at a discount to someone who really needs it - especially around the holidays or when the economy id down (or both!). It's part of what makes a great community too. Not everyone wants to get rich off selling parts. These people tend to get jaded when the people they "help" end up taking advantage of them.

I have seen it personally at swap meets where a buyer will give some sort of sob story about how he needs a particular piece (fire, divorce, stolen, etc.) and the seller will give a great deal only to have the buyer turn around and mark up the price 200-300% at their own swap space. This is similar to what Chuck is talking about but even more despicable because the original (and fair) price was higher.

As for whether I deserve anything. No. The Classifieds are offered for free to anyone who wants to use them. Would it be nice if people who use them solely to make a profit donated something back to the site? Yes. The people in this particular complaint probably wouldn't bother so it's really a moot point. Not really anything to waste time worry about.

Troy

[twodko]

Sound reasoning here folks. skip68 has a valid point IMO, it just doesn't sit well with me.

[69bronzeT5]

Sound reasoning here folks. skip68 has a valid point IMO, it just doesn't sit well with me.

[skip68]

Troy hit the nail on the head.   IF you join this site as a member then act like one.   Don't get me to drop my price way down thinking I'm helping a fellow member out only to find out you don't need my part for anything other than making a buck. This is misleading and Wrong.  Now, if you tell me up front you buy and sell and offer me a price you will give me if nobody else buys it that's fine.   I just want to know before joe blow talks me down on the price that it's going to a member in need.... If not then take your business the F*&# away from me.   One more thing,. DON'T BE F'ING POSTING IN THE WANTED SECTION FOR PARTS IF YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE CAR.   Toooo many members here have given parts for free or very little to help others out and your business don't belong here.   I Don't think this is what this site is intended for.  Now you can see the morally wrong part.   Sorry Troy for this rant but this just happened to me and it pisses me off to no end.   My price for a member in need is more flexible
than it is to some A$$-hole taking advantage of my kindness.   
RANT OVER .
Chuck

[68X426]

I suppose I should add some comment. I guess I missed where the DC Forum Swap Meet was a discounted sale site. I hardly read instructions, maybe I should have. 

I never thought that any item for sale here was at a discount price just because we are all part of a unique community. (We are unique, I value this community, and that's why I hang around). I just never expect, ask for, or seek a discount on parts here. Do others expect, ask for, and seek discounts for the items listed here? And are items (a few, many, or all?) discounted because we are friends? I just was not aware of that situation.

If someone is abusing the honor code of discounts within the community, by flipping the part, then they are immoral. Same as stealing.

But let us not be naive or too moralistic on this issue. Can we agree why sellers (I think all) sell here? No cost to list. Can we agree why buyers (I think all) buy here? Lower priced items because the seller had no cost to list. If anything there should a surcharge on buying and selling, because of the added value of the community. But no one compensates Troy, so in that regard we all take advantage. How many of us would be here if we had to pay a subscription? How many sale listings if the listing were to be charged for? Y'all know the answers.

I agree whole heartedly that when some buyer grabs up a part that was being discounted just to flip it here (really, does that happen?) then that buyer/dealer can rot in hell, and probably will. 

[68X426]

Well now I know. Yeah Chuck you got taken advantage of. Unfortunately you probably won't ever give a break to someone again. Sorry man.

[skip68]

Actually I should have said this almost happened to me for the second time but it did catch it. 68x426, I do see your points and think we are both right.  As for helping a member out, I will allways do that if I can.   The first guy I gave parts to for free because he wanted them took them home and sold them on Craigslist.  It made me mad but I said nothing because at that same time he screwed others here and it became the talk here for a bit.   I don't want to rehash it but I still have the "am/fm radio" lol....   My beef is I just want people to be honest of their intent.   There are no discounts here but lots of generous people.       

[bull]

Really? I didn't realize this was happening. Pretty lame.

[69bronzeT5]

I've gotten parts for free from members before and I would never dare to resell them. If I don't end up using them on my car then I'll end up giving them to someone who can use them. Pay it forward so to speak. I hate when people take advantage of someone else's kindness, it's just bull. 

[68charger383]

I agree, people shouldn't be vultures, this isn't ebay.

Names?  

[HANDM]

I agree, people shouldn't be vultures, this isn't ebay.

Names?  

Full disclosure would be a good thing, then we'll all know who the douchebag(s) are

[FLG]

I agree guys, I've gotta a bunch of free stuff and would never sell it...but here's a story


Ron gave me a 8.75 housing for a 2nd gen, to put it on my 3rd gen id need to move the perches but a few months later I found a sweet deal on a correct housing already powder coated and ready to go. I asked ron if he wanted his back after I told him the story (basically it would cost just as much or more to get his good to go than it would be to just buy the one I found) he told me to keep it. I could sell it but it wouldn't be right, I plan on holding onto it in case I ever buy a 2nd gen and need it, or if one day someone on the forum is in need for one and ill simply pass it on for free.

[elacruze]

I agree.  Yes, taking advantage of the Troy's good will.

However .... just for the sake of discussion ..... if the new owner buys the item at $100, and then relists/sells it at $200, how is that morally wrong?  

The original owner could have (should have) listed for $200. Where is the immorality in listing and re-selling for what turns out to be the correct price ? (Correct price defined as what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller.) My opinion: save morality analysis for weightier matters than reselling parts at a correct price.

Immoral to sell at $200? I don't see it because the buyer and seller are both willing and knowledgeable participants in an open and free marketplace. Again, I agree it is distasteful behavior, and that the seller is actually a dealer, who should have a different set of rules for how they market. But the act of selling an item for a profit is not immoral. (unless of course the item is stolen).

Also consider that the new seller could very well misread the market and eventually sell at $50. The new seller is taking plenty of financial risk with their buy/sell operation, and they can lose money as well as score. Is it immoral to sell an item at a loss? Would Troy owe them something because of the loss?

Just food for thought.

Now lets talk about HP ink jet cartridges, lawyers, movie theater tickets and pro basketball contracts!  

"Open and free". Open implies full disclosure. Certainly, buying parts for a car you don't own, and haggling the price down while pretending to be a DC.com member in need is in no way Open. It's deceitful and fraudulent. Misrepresentation is recoverable in small claims court. Oh yeah, there's always that "Interstate Wire Fraud" thingy.

[Troy]

68X426: I don't say that every part for sale is discounted - but people will often list something on their favorite site for a few days or a week before posting it elsewhere so that members get first shot (discounted or otherwise). Many times the price here will be cheaper already OR the seller may drop the price if someone known to them needs it for their car. I have no problem with someone selling parts for a living or to help support their hobby. This site has a pretty good audience if you have a bunch of Charger parts for sale and, yes, it is free so overhead is low. If a seller is asking a reasonable price and someone else buys it to flip then the seller still got what they wanted out of it. Lying about the need for a part just to get the price down to make more on the "flip" is where things go bad.

There are times when I find a deal on a part that I know I can resell with a little work - or replace a part that I currently have and sell that. Anyone who has ever dealt with me knows that I don't really barter - I pretty much pay the asking price. These are usually things I find on Craigslist locally that I can then offer nationally or internationally here. More often, I get "extra" stuff as part of a package deal when I only need a small number of the parts offered. I almost always know someone who can use the leftovers.

Personally, I give about as many parts away as I sell. I hate selling. I also get a lot of good deals on things I need so it works out most of the time. If I have something I no longer need I will contact people who I think can use it and offer it to them at my price (typically what I paid so if I got a great deal I pass it on). I don't contact people at random on the internet - only here. It's just a way to create more good will through the community. That doesn't mean everyone has to do what I do. However, it makes us all look bad when another member takes advantage of someone's generosity. Sadly, I tend to have this view: whenever someone says "us Mopar guys have to stick together" I know I'm about to get screwed. It's happened too often to ignore.

Troy

[skip68]

Thanks Elacruze, you hit the nail on the head to.   I'm making a list of names AND I WILL POST THEM of these so called "members for money".  This is the best I can do to help our generous members out so they don't get taken advantage of by giving these jerks deals so they can put money in their pockets.  I will also post in the site suggestions section that these "members" not be allowed to post adds in the wanted sections without disclosing the fact that they are dealers.   This will prevent our good generous members from making the mistake of sending these guys parts for free, cheap, or being talked down in price thinking they are helping another member out.   

[Old Moparz]

It only took one sour transaction that took place a long time ago, & long before internet sites existed, to open my eyes about offering a cheap deal to "someone in need" of the part. It was someone I knew in the Mopar hobby that I had bought parts from in the past. He's a very well known vendor, but he's also a shrewd businessman. I had sold extra parts at swap meets for years that were all cheap enough that I didn't have to drag things home. All I was trying to do was.....

Make room at home by getting rid of unwanted parts
Not toss something out someone could use
Pay for my weekend vending space & gas
Help someone find a part that they needed

In this particular sale, he offered me very little for something that he said was actually going on his personal car. I thought I was doing him a favor & sold it to him for $35 thinking I was helping him out. At the next swap meet, just a couple of weeks later, the same part he needed from me was on his table for $135. I was pretty angry but technically there was nothing I could do since I agreed to sell it to him instead of saying no.

Sales I've made since then have always been for fair market value unless it's someone I know. I've given parts away, delivered parts cars for nothing, & traded even for other stuff & have never felt stiffed over it. Anytime someone has done me a favor in offering something cheap or free, I don't forget it & will happily return the favor. It's tough when you see someone taking advantage of others, but unless it's an outright ripoff like not sending parts after they're paid for, how do you police that without starting trouble?

[TUFCAT]

If agree with most people who posted.

If you want top dollar for your parts then sell them on eBay.

If you want to help a DC.com buddy out, then sell it here.

[68X426]

Thanks Elacruze, you hit the nail on the head to.   I'm making a list of names AND I WILL POST THEM of these so called "members for money".  This is the best I can do to help our generous members out so they don't get taken advantage of by giving these jerks deals so they can put money in their pockets.  I will also post in the site suggestions section that these "members" not be allowed to post adds in the wanted sections without disclosing the fact that they are dealers.   This will prevent our good generous members from making the mistake of sending these guys parts for free, cheap, or being talked down in price thinking they are helping another member out.   

Excellent ideas.

[Old Moparz]

In theory a list of profiteers sounds like a good idea, but I see the potential for a lot of trouble by doing it. Anyone with any kind of gripe will start listing names in retaliation for whatever deal they believe went bad. I think it's also why Moparts got away from having any kind of feedback system.   

[skip68]

I agree 100% with you.  I want this to be done more direct with the ones in question.   I did a reply to you but it didn't post.   I gave what you said about trouble more thought.   I want these members notified that they need to do things in a more up front way and I am going to try and get the terms modified for dealer/flippers that they must make it known that they are a dealer.   As far as how to police this is do just what I'm doing by bringing this to the sites attention just like any other problem.   Since this is a small problem it should be easy to fix.   

[skip68]

Tuffy, these guys are members.    I just pulled my ad so to speak.   I just won't sell here anymore.   I put my stuff up for REAL MEMBERS WITH REAL CARS IN REAL NEED.    I can ebay stuff myself thank you.  It won't be fair for me to only deal with old members with high post counts and not trust newer members or ones with low post numbers.   So for that reason I will just stop using the classifieds.  I guess this site is turning into Craigslist...oh wait, even Craigslist has rules and tries to seperate owners from dealers...          Sorry guys, I'm just pissed off and done.   I don't get mad to often but I can't stand solisitors/salesmen wasting my time.