converting to 4speed

[Troy]

You have to weld the ball tab for the Z-bar to the left frame rail.  Position is not exact so you have to determine it after the engine/bell/trans is installed.

Actually, the factory marked the frame rail where the bracket needs to go.

Brewer's is close to me and they do have a really good reputation. Calling from Hungary may get expensive though.

Troy

[Mrs.Caveman]

i know other countries dont have that law!ok i make it clear this!i CAN import it over here and register as any car from anywhere with any engines!so if it doesnt have a number matching number then i still can register it as any cars!BUT and it's a big BUT i would have to pass the normal european emission rules then would have to pay a lot of taxes,like road tax and the insurance would be a huge amount!because its a v8 and got5700cc they dont like it over here for some reason !and a bunch of other stuff i would have to pay for her!trust me if it was that easy i wouldnt worry about number matching stuff!would have bought one ages months ago!

i can register her as an oldtimer which is 30+year old cars can be!that gives me the privilage to free roadtax and tax after the weight of the car,the insurance would be10%of the normal price if i just registred her as any other car!they say the car has to be 80%original and the engine and the trany has to be original!

there is one more way to register her without the original engine and its called an international registration!but they are way more strick then the oldtimer registration rules!the car has to be like when it came off the assembly line!now,i cant affored to have a car like that or restaural that!

so it comes down to money!i know its an expensive hobby we have but why would i pay more then i need to!oh and a liter/not gallon/ of petrol is$2dollars almost!

i wish it was easier to get my dream car!

hope it clears everything out!oh,one more thing!if the block throws a rod or something then i dont know to be honest!i guess after register her that really doesnt matter!they say the car at least has to have a date correct engine or parts!

i heard they refused one guy for changing the electric system from 6v to 12v!or someone have a different windshild wiper on his car!

[Chatt69chgr]

six-tee-nine-------what I recommended was kind of a compromise considering hard to find parts, costs, etc.  In my particular case, I'm like you.  I am using a 11 inch clutch setup with correct cast iron bell housing and about a month ago got in on a pallet my new Strange S60 set up for 3.54 and Detroit tru-trac with tapered roller bearings and mopar hats on end of tubes.  I'm going with 10 inch Mopar drums on the rear with 13/16 inch bore wheel cyl instead of the 15/16 std.  And I secured the correct 69 manual crossmember but thought I would indicate that one could modify their auto version.  And my tailshaft is the correct one----but this may end up being a moot point if I buy the Gearvendors OD that I have been looking at.

Troy------you said that the frame rail was marked.  do you have a picture of what to look for, that is, what does the mark look like.  I think the weld-on tab is located about center with the access hole in the rear of the inner drivers fender.  It would make sense that it would be marked since I would assume that the factory welded on this tab before they installed the engine/transmission.  but should one trust the mark?  if it were off, your z-bar would't be oriented correctly.

[BIGBLCK11]

I was told that 71 and up has a little notch on the frame, which corresponds to the little tab on the bracket. But for 70 and back you have to grind that tab off, the part just works for multiple years that way.  I believe Brewer's told me that.  If I am recalling wrong, please do not quote me, I do not want to misrepresent them in any way.


update - called Brewer's just to make sure.  He said he has never seen a marked frame rail on the 70 and older and you have to grind the tab off of the reproduction ballstud frame bracket.

[Troy]

Um, well, not to disagree with Wayne but every one of my cars (68) has the same mark on the frame. It is a 'V' shaped notch. Believe me, the assembly line workers needed some way to locate it (look at all the dimples in the firewall and other places around the car) since it would have been attached early on in the unibody construction. Speed (and partially accuracy) was the key. Technically, you don't have to use it - just center the bracket up with the adjustment hole in the inner fender. The Z-bar has a "ball" on the end you you don't need to be exact. You are correct on the bracket itself - there's a tab on bottom that has to be ground off.

I use the stock 11" bell housings although many people have recommended a scatter shield instead for safety. A 10.5" clutch has the same (or nearly the same) surface area so the lighter weight is a bonus if you go that way. You'll need the correct linkages if you do.

Yes, auto cross members can be converted to work with a 4-speed. More cutting/grinding.

Troy

[Chatt69chgr]

Thanks to all for the info.  I didn't know that you had to grind the tab off the bottom of the ballstud mount.  Makes sense to center on the access hole.  Would be interesting to hear from owners of original 4-speed cars as to where their ballstud mount is positioned relative to the fender access hole. 

[stripedelete]

i know other countries dont have that law!ok i make it clear this!i CAN import it over here and register as any car from anywhere with any engines!so if it doesnt have a number matching number then i still can register it as any cars!BUT and it's a big BUT i would have to pass the normal european emission rules then would have to pay a lot of taxes,like road tax and the insurance would be a huge amount!because its a v8 and got5700cc they dont like it over here for some reason !and a bunch of other stuff i would have to pay for her!trust me if it was that easy i wouldnt worry about number matching stuff!would have bought one ages months ago!

i can register her as an oldtimer which is 30+year old cars can be!that gives me the privilage to free roadtax and tax after the weight of the car,the insurance would be10%of the normal price if i just registred her as any other car!they say the car has to be 80%original and the engine and the trany has to be original!

there is one more way to register her without the original engine and its called an international registration!but they are way more strick then the oldtimer registration rules!the car has to be like when it came off the assembly line!now,i cant affored to have a car like that or restaural that!

so it comes down to money!i know its an expensive hobby we have but why would i pay more then i need to!oh and a liter/not gallon/ of petrol is$2dollars almost!

i wish it was easier to get my dream car!

hope it clears everything out!oh,one more thing!if the block throws a rod or something then i dont know to be honest!i guess after register her that really doesnt matter!they say the car at least has to have a date correct engine or parts!

i heard they refused one guy for changing the electric system from 6v to 12v!or someone have a different windshild wiper on his car!

Interesting.  It sounds easier to just relocate.

Sorry this is off topic but I gotta' ask, "how does a 2nd Gen Charger become the dream car for a young lady in Hungary?" (If the question is repetitious just send me to the thread)

[Mrs.Caveman]

like most of us,Dukes of Hazzard
i always loved cars helped my dad who is a mechanic working on cars!love their shape the sound of the v8 and the feeling of a musclecar!drove a 67 mustang fastback a few times and i just loved it!the whole feeling of it since you sit in it!you shut the door and it doesnt sound like these new plastic cars,no computer,abs and all those gizmos just an engine that made to be threshed around!it was an automatic but will never forget it!they played the doh here when i was a kid and i always watched it now they actually started to play them again on the TV museum Chanel and i watch every episode!the '69 has the sexiest ass and i just love them!never seen one in live or sit in it but i have been dreaming about it for ages!

my dream was when i get married i can drive to the church in my charger!that dream didn't work out when i got married9years ago and didn't even get married in the church but now i have met my true love and he makes my dream come true with some of my friends from this site!didnt wanna sound tearjerking too much!you asked heheehh....

my dream cars list:1.1969 dodge charger 2nd1969 charger 3rd 1967 Pontiac gto 4.1970-1973 Pontiac trans am/firebird 5.Eleanor gt500

[stripedelete]

like most of us,Dukes of Hazzard
i always loved cars helped my dad who is a mechanic working on cars!love their shape the sound of the v8 and the feeling of a musclecar!drove a 67 mustang fastback a few times and i just loved it!the whole feeling of it since you sit in it!you shut the door and it doesnt sound like these new plastic cars,no computer,abs and all those gizmos just an engine that made to be threshed around!it was an automatic but will never forget it!they played the doh here when i was a kid and i always watched it :drool5:now they actually started to play them again on the TV museum Chanel and i watch every episode!the '69 has the sexiest ass and i just love them!never seen one in live or sit in it but i have been dreaming about it for ages!

my dream was when i get married i can drive to the church in my charger!that dream didn't work out when i got married9years ago and didn't even get married in the church but now i have met my true love and he makes my dream come true with some of my friends from this site!didnt wanna sound tearjerking too much!you asked :nana:heheehh....

my dream cars list:1.1969 dodge charger 2nd1969 charger 3rd 1967 Pontiac gto 4.1970-1973 Pontiac trans am/firebird 5.Eleanor gt500

Very cool! Thanks for sharing.
I hope you find it.

[BIGBLCK11]

Um, well, not to disagree with Wayne but every one of my cars (68) has the same mark on the frame. It is a 'V' shaped notch. Believe me, the assembly line workers needed some way to locate it (look at all the dimples in the firewall and other places around the car) since it would have been attached early on in the unibody construction. Speed (and partially accuracy) was the key. Technically, you don't have to use it - just center the bracket up with the adjustment hole in the inner fender. The Z-bar has a "ball" on the end you you don't need to be exact. You are correct on the bracket itself - there's a tab on bottom that has to be ground off.

I use the stock 11" bell housings although many people have recommended a scatter shield instead for safety. A 10.5" clutch has the same (or nearly the same) surface area so the lighter weight is a bonus if you go that way. You'll need the correct linkages if you do.

Yes, auto cross members can be converted to work with a 4-speed. More cutting/grinding.

Troy

No problem, I'll take your word for it.  I didn't talk to Wayne, it was his son I believe.  I agree, a mark for the assembly line makes sense.  I hope it has a mark, then I can line it up w/o the motor and trans in place, if I pull it for some other work.  I do have the reinforcement bracket.  I was thinking more of a large plate or something when I read that, it is a pretty small bracket really.  I went with an 11" stock cast bellhousing, flywheel and z-bar all from the same car.

[Charger-Bodie]

A. Ive never had to grind anything off of the z bar bracket on any of the many Ive converted to manual transmission.

B. The locating marks are there,but if you grind it clean to weld it you will never see them. Clean it up carefully with a roloc disc or a fine wire wheel. OR simply use some manual labor and a piece of sand paper.

[six-tee-nine]

There has to be a marker point since auto or manual cars used the same frame rails. And you aint gonna make me believe that the factory welded that specific braket after engine and trans were mounted.

[Troy]

Thanks to all for the info.  I didn't know that you had to grind the tab off the bottom of the ballstud mount.  Makes sense to center on the access hole.  Would be interesting to hear from owners of original 4-speed cars as to where their ballstud mount is positioned relative to the fender access hole. 

I took pictures of mine yesterday but forgot to upload them so now I have to wait until I get home.

I also took pictures of the mark on the frame on both Chargers and one of the Challengers.

A. Ive never had to grind anything off of the z bar bracket on any of the many Ive converted to manual transmission.

Umm, I distinctly remember removing that tab on the bronze car. I'm positive I did it at your shop since I didn't make any modifications like that on my own.

Troy

[madmike]

Troy,

I am in the process of converting my 383 auto car to a 440 four speed.  It was interesting to hear your take on welding the frame mounted Z-bar bracket.  I have not purchased that part yet, but probably will from Brewer's.  I was wondering how to best locate that part before welding it.  Currently, the engine and transmission is sitting in the car, and I was going to 'mock it up' with the Z bar and frame bracket to best locate the bracket.

My only real concern is welding the bracket to the frame.  I'm not a welder, so I'll have to call a mobile welder guy in.  I'm worried that he might not have enough room to make the weld.  I have removed the drivers side header, valve cover, spark plugs, master cylinder (non-power) and steering column.  I'm guessing that part would be mig welded, and I think there's barely enough room to weld it in now.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  I'd sure hate to pull the engine and tranny, just to make this weld...

Others:

I always enjoy reading the comments concerning auto/manual trannys, which is faster, pedal effort, blah blah blah...  As one guy pointed out, if you get the right guy behind a four speed, he can give the autos a run for their money, no problem.  It takes way more talent to drag race a stick car, vs auto.  I have way more admiration for the guy who competes with a stick.  When I bought this rolling basket case, I almost didn't buy it because it was a factory auto.  I have converted several cars from auto to manual, and I figured I could change this one too.  I've never owned a Charger before, but I couldn't imagine having fun driving one with an automatic.  Boring!

Concerning pedal effort:  Get real, be a man, step up and jam!  If it's tough, be tougher!

Mike

[Charger-Bodie]

Thanks to all for the info.  I didn't know that you had to grind the tab off the bottom of the ballstud mount.  Makes sense to center on the access hole.  Would be interesting to hear from owners of original 4-speed cars as to where their ballstud mount is positioned relative to the fender access hole. 

I took pictures of mine yesterday but forgot to upload them so now I have to wait until I get home.

I also took pictures of the mark on the frame on both Chargers and one of the Challengers.

A. Ive never had to grind anything off of the z bar bracket on any of the many Ive converted to manual transmission.

Umm, I distinctly remember removing that tab on the bronze car. I'm positive I did it at your shop since I didn't make any modifications like that on my own.

Troy

Maybe Im in the middle of a brain fart then,but what tab are we talkingabout then?

[Troy]

Brian (1HotDaytona) welded mine but the car is pretty much stripped down to the shell. There's no room behind the bracket even when the engine bay is empty so all the welds are along the front edge (I believe). When I post the pictures later it may be clearer. I have no idea if you can reach that area with the engine in place.

Another option is to use a hydraulic clutch/TO bearing. No brackets or linkages to mess with!

Troy

[BIGBLCK11]

Here's the tab.



Can you get in behind it at all to weld the backside via the access panel behind the driver's front wheel, which is for getting to the back of the ballstud?

[Charger-Bodie]

Oh yes that tab. Yes that needs to be ground off. Sorry. Some of them dont have that tab by the way.