Stranded Again!

[troutstreamnm]

Once again an electrical gremlin has bit me    I'm driving around this weekend everything is working just great.  While waiting at a red light the car just died and not even a click when you turn the starter switch.  Got the car towed home and then switched out the alternater with a replacement I had and then had the battery tested and it's good.  Still nothing at all when the ignition is turned.  Lights work fine, no fuses blown and the fusable link is not burned.  All the wiring is new and no signs of burnt wires or shorts.  Grounds are good and it had been running fine up to the point it went dead.  The car has a Mopar electronic ignition.  Could this be the transmission safety switch or starter relay gone bad?  The only old wiring is to the transmission safety switch.  What do you suggest?  What a bummer 

[b5blue]

Check the ECU plug for 12 volts, check the ballast resister for continuity through it, check the dist connections and you can test the recluder inside there by looking for a .5 volt pulse between the 2 wires from the dist. when you turn the engine over. Be sure the ECU case is grounded very well. Check 12 volts is supplied to the coil. The interlock can be defeated by jumping a ground to that post on the starter relay but it will turn over in gear so be careful. Check bulkhead connections and the connections in and out of the column (assuming yours is a 70) That aught to keep you busy.  Think of fallowing a path of 12 volts everywhere and your dizzy as a .5 volt "trigger".

[troutstreamnm]

Thanks for the input.  Note that it will not turn over at all...not even a click at the starter so power is getting cut off completly somewhere.

[moparguy01]

Check the ammeter terminals and see if they are loose at all. Also check the connections at the bulkhead as well. You'd be surprised the weird stuff that happens at the bulkhead connector.

[troutstreamnm]

OK, I'll pull the instrument panel too, thanks for the advise....gotta love electrical problems 

[b5blue]

Have you forced it to crank over yet to see if it starts, I'd start there. 

[troutstreamnm]

Just short direct to the hot on the starter?  No, but I can give it a try.  Thanks for the suggestions....I'm just miffed about this and a bit frustrated that I'm still having electrical problems after a completed rewire. These issues were suppose to be done    I guess this too will pass.  thx  

[solids0be]

Does your positive battery cable  have an wire that goes to the ignition system like on the 3rd Gens? Check to make sure it hasn't seperated from the battery cable head. Mine did this a while back ago and i rigged it so it maintained a good connection but need to break down and get a new cable.

[flyinlow]

I would use a test light, but not the little ones that look like a screwdriver. Take an old headlight ground one side to the neg. battery terminal.Run about 10 or more feet of wire from the from the other side of the headlight and solder it to a nail. Start at the pos. terminal of the battery and work your way downstream, starter relay, bulkhead connector,ammeter,fuse block ,ignition switch. The larger bulb draws enought current (5 amps) that higher resistance connections show up unlike just using a volt meter. Moving the cars wiring around while you do this might help find  a broken wire or loose connection.

I have seen fusible links that are damaged ack this way and quit suddenly. Rare though.  Good luck.

[FLG]

Have you tried starting it in neutral? Or jumping the starter relay with a screwdriver or other large metal object?

[nvrbdn]

I would use a test light, but not the little ones that look like a screwdriver. Take an old headlight ground one side to the neg. battery terminal.Run about 10 or more feet of wire from the from the other side of the headlight and solder it to a nail. Start at the pos. terminal of the battery and work your way downstream, starter relay, bulkhead connector,ammeter,fuse block ,ignition switch. The larger bulb draws enought current (5 amps) that higher resistance points show up unlike just using a volt meter. Moving the cars wiring around while you do this might help find  a broken wire or loose connection.

I have seen fusible links that are damaged ack this way and quit suddenly. Rare though.  Good luck.

    man i love this homemade tool idea. cool suggestion. sounds like a frog gigging light.

[BigBlockSam]

that happened to me and it was the safety neutral switch

[flyinlow]

Could you clarrify "just quit".   You where sitting at light and it quit. Ignition,lights,radio and everything electrical went dead.  Or did the engine die (carb problem) and then it would not crank to restart?
A bad neutral safety will cause the engine not to crank or crank in any gear. It can make the backup lights stay on all the time or not at all. It does not normally short out or cause an open in the main electrical system.

[troutstreamnm]

Could you clarrify "just quit".   You where sitting at light and it quit. Ignition,lights,radio and everything electrical went dead.  Or did the engine die (carb problem) and then it would not crank to restart?

Yep, sitting at a light idling just fine and it just shut down.  No noise, no sputtering or roughness before it died and absolutely nothing when turning the ignition switch in park or neutral.  Not even a click at the starter.  All the lights (interior and exterior) work fine.  Battery and alternator are good.  I pulled the instrument panel and the connections at the amp meter are tight and no evidence of any burned connections.

I need to try and jump the starter relay still.  Do you jump the poles with the red line from the battery and the brown wire that goes to the starter?

My gut is telling me this is a bad neutral safety switch or a bad ignition switch only because both are a PITA to replace.  Any way to test the neutral safety switch using the wiring connectors at the starter relay? Thanks 

[flyinlow]

Yes jump from the large battery feed terminal to the slightly smaller terminal with the wire that goes to the starter. Car in park, brake set , ignition OFF. Starter should crank the engine but will not start.
The small terminal toward the bottom of the relay (3rd gen) is the NS switch wire . Pull this off and ground with a jumper. Go in car and see if it cranks and starts with the key. CAUTION it will start in any gear this way.

I have never seen a bad NS kill a running engine. I suspect a loose/corroded connection or a wire that has chaffed thru its insulation or a fusible link.   

[troutstreamnm]

Thanks a bunch for the input.  I'll test the relay and NS switch when I get a chance and will report back. 

[troutstreamnm]

Update...need advise.  This morning I got in my Charger and turned on the key and had power to the dash and it fired right up.  Ran for about 1 minute and then dies...dead like it was before...nothing when you try to start it.  I noticed that the fuel and amp gauges seemed to be without power when I turned the key on at this point.  I shorted the starter relay and it turned the engine over.  I grounded the NS switch terminal on the starter relay and it was still dead...but again I didn't see the fuel or amp move once the key was turned on or when I turned the switch to start position.  When I turn the lights on, they all work and it deflects the amp gauge.  Turned on the emergency flashers and they work and the amp gauge deflects.  I confirmed 12V coming into the harness that hooks up to the ignition switch wiring on the colunm.

Would a bad ignition switch/wiring kill power completely to the starter, gauges?  Could a bad NS Switch cause the power to be dead at the guages and ignition switch?

Thanks

[b5blue]

NS switch just defeats the starter solenoid, nothing else. I had a brand new ignition switch crap out on me in the first month of daily use. It would not "reach" the crank over position for some reason. If that was your problem jumping the starter solenoid would crank the motor and it would start. Here's what I suggest, buy a new ignition switch and just plug it in, leave it hanging down and test it for a while. If that's not it just return it. In 30 minutes you'll know if it's that or something else.    Auto Zone had one for me in stock. 

[troutstreamnm]

With the power problem at the the instrument panel I'm thinking it's got to be an issue with the wiring in the colunm.  Will pull the colunm and inspect, but will probably just change out the ignition wiring and switch.  Should have done that when I replaced the turn signal switch and wiring    I'll report back.  thx 

[myaerocars]

HEllo.. I thought I would chime in with a similar situation I had in my Superbird clone.  A few years ago, while sitting at a light, car dies all by itself , just like you described.    Would let it sit  for a few minutes and it would start again.  WEll after having it do it while driving at 60 mph, I  started checking wiring.   

What I found was at the bulkhead connectors, where the inner wiring harness meets the engine compartment wiring on the firewall, under the naster cyclinder,  the blade connectors were slightly loose in the connectors. So I removed one of the 3 main plugs ins at a time,  used some fine sand paper to remove  any corrosion I found. It was kinda hard to sand in there,,, just fold a bit of paper and work it back and forth. Blow out and dust you can.  Next,  I took some needle nose pliers and  GENTLY and JUST BARELY gave each of the male blades  a slight tweak or twist. Lastley, I put a light coat of die electric grease in there and when I put the connectors back on, they were nice and tight. Don't twist the  blade  connectors TOO much or they won't go back into the female part on the firewall. 

This was 3 years ago and I've never had a problem since.   I recall reading a road test back in the 60's where the testers had the exact same problem.. and that was on a new car.

Good luck and
Godspeed,
JON

[troutstreamnm]

Thanks for the reply myaerocars.  All my electrical harnesses at the bulkhead are new, but I will disconnect and double check that they are fitting together properly.  There was very little wiring that I didn't change out during my restoration.  The NS/backup harness and the ignition switch/harness were left alone (I was getting cheap!), but they are on order now!  Maybe I could of saved myself a major headache... 

[flyinlow]

I agree with B 5 , try a new ignition switch . Don't think they are hard to get to on second gen. Charger.

The ammeter is always on. If you turn on the headlights with the engine off you will show a discharge. The fuel.temp. and oil are powered with the ignition switch  in the run  position.

The ignition switch has several sets of contacts : ignition run (accessory's on) , ignition start (also energises the starter relay) and acc. which powers accessory's only. With wear these contacts can get out of position and become intermitent with bumps and vibrarion or you have to play with the switch to get it to work right.

The NS switch just completes the ground for the starter relay when in park or neutral. The other small wire on the starter relay is the power feed from the ignition start position of the ignition switch.

The battery side of the fuse block is hot all the time (lights,flashers,horns, cig. lighter,brake lights,etc.)


Goodluck

[b5blue]

I know your frustration, I just had to buy that new ignition switch off eBay for 26.00 for my column repair, for two-three months of daily driving I had rigged the windshield washer switch as a push button "start" switch.   While I checked and re-checked things. One thing to do is closely examine the new bulk head connectors dark blue wires to insure they are seated in the connections, the new one I got slipped off the crimp when I pull checked it (I always firmly tug on the wires anywhere they are crimped or connected, an old habit from my USAF tech days) I never assume anything new is perfect and caught that before I installed it. Something like an incorrect crimp could have you "chasing your tail" forever. I test new switches and examine the inside of plugs and such before installing, the plug that connects to the ECU had a "flash" of rubber from manufacturing inside one of the round female connector tubes that may have interfered with a good electrical connection, that was scraped out with an exact-o knife, I think it was the ECU, it may have been the voltage regulator but you get what I mean.      

[ACUDANUT]

Please report back, as I am curious. 

[troutstreamnm]

Please report back, as I am curious. 

Will do.  Hope to get parts and get it back together next weekend. 

[Grim Jhaixus]

I'm having almost the same problem with my 3rd gen, exception being I have no lights, and almost everything is new. I'll keep checking yours for ideas, and even though they are different I'll be sure to post what fixed it.

[troutstreamnm]

I've ordered a new ignition switch and replacing the NS/backup light wire harness just for good measure (the old one was very brittle and cracked in several places, but tested OK).  Waiting on a lower steering column bushing now, but hope to get it all back together next weekend.  Will report back.

[troutstreamnm]

exception being I have no lights, and almost everything is new.

When I rewired my Charger, the only harnesses that I did not replace were the ignition switch, the NS/backup and the above head interior light.  Guess I got tired of paying for all the wiring and just got cheap...and you see what happens!

Grim, I would follow the same advise folks are giving me and start from the basics.  Make sure your battery and cables are good, test the alternator and check all your grounds.  Check your bulkhead connections, instrument gauges, and see if you're getting voltage into the connection with the ignition switch harness.  With your lights going out too that sound like a fundamental problem.  Anyway, Who am I to give advise!      

[Grim Jhaixus]

Mine turned out to be an undone wire crimp on the wire that runs from the positive to the starter igniter. It looked like it was still hooked in, and I went by it like a hundred times before pulling on it. 

Hope you get yours figured out soon.

[troutstreamnm]

Congrats on the fix and thanks.  I hope to have it on the road before New Years! 

[troutstreamnm]

OK, here's an update for those curious about the problem I was having with my 70 Charger.  Looks like the issue causing to car to die and have no response from the ignition may have simply been a poor main power wire connection at the colunm.  Ended up replacing the ignition switch, but had to cut the main "red" power wire and splice in a connector (my previous ignition wiring harness had a connector spliced into the wire so I went ahead and just connected into that line with the new ignition wiring).  Apparently, the connection was good for a several drives, but when it loosened, it killed all power instantly in the ignition switch circuit.  Finally figured out what was going on when I was moving the colunm wire harnesses and noticed the parking light going on and off and narrowed it down to the main power connection.  I cut the old connector and spliced in a 10-12 gauge butt connector and the car started right up.  However, the car stalled again when I shook the wiring so I really crimped down on the connector and it seems OK.  I'm tempted to just solder the wires together and screw the connector all together.  Is there a quality connector I should use for this main power wire?  Apparently it is critical to have a solid connection with this wire.  FYI and thanks

[flyinlow]

Glad you found it  .

Quality crimp splices ( NAPA) , the correct size and crimped at the correct place with a quality crimping tool (Klein) usually work well. Avoid putting them in areas subject to vibration and stress on the wire if possible. And of course test the crimp by pulling on the wires.

[b5blue]

NAPA has the crimping tool, the one that folds and compresses the tangs like factory. (45.00) My guys gave me their NAPA Accessory catalog to keep and use. I solder the crimp then clean the flux off real well, then coat it with anti-oxide grease before reinserting it in the plastic connector housing. Waytek, inc. is another excellent source for anything automotive wiring.  www.waytekwire.com   

[Grim Jhaixus]

Wow, same thing.

[troutstreamnm]

I also found a black wire on the ignition harness connector that was loose and it too would kill the engine when you moved it.  Lesson learned...aftermarket harnesses connectors cannot be trusted    However, I think I've found all the problems so the Charger should be back on the road tomorrow! 

[nvrbdn]

good job tracking down the problem