Don't touch my junk.

[bakerhillpins]

It was meant to be elementary.  No points for picking up on it though.
Here's the thing; I read how everyone is so pissed that the TSA would dare invade their privacy by touching them (not to mention the implication through the act that the touchee might be a security threat ) and the only alternative that has been suggested is to take anyone who looks Muslim out of the line and only put them through the wringer.  While I agree with profiling, the chances of it becoming written policy in "The Great Melting Pot" are pretty much nil.  So what else?
Not to mention that in all of this uproar, I can't help but wonder how many of the people who are upset by it have flown since the policy came into effect?  How about in the last month?  Last year?  Ever?  Some yes, perhaps even everyone on this forum who has found it to be such an abominable attack on their rights.  So far the ones who have spoken firsthand about the TSA experience have been a pilot, a TSA officer and two passengers.  Of the two flyers, one witnessed an incident that does indeed sound over the line.  The other (me) hasn't seen anything like that yet.  I fly commercially between two and eight times a month from a variety of airports and the TSA have always been great to deal with.  Yes, there are times I have seen them get high on themselves and there are many more times where I have seen them becoming exasperated with people.  It seems like no matter how far ahead they go in the line to explain to people what they need to do when they reach the inspection point, people still become deer in the headlights when they get to the belt and scanner.  Do they deserve to be treated like crap?  Absolutely not.  But have you ever become impatient with someone after having to explain the same simple routine to them over and over and over and over and over?
You can call it theater if you wish but the US was noted worldwide for having some of the worst airport security measures bar none prior to the mass murder committed against civilians just going into their cublicles to do their little jobs on 9/11.  The airport bs has gotten worse since then but I personally haven't found it to be objectionable in the grans scheme of things.  Obviously I am in the minority on this as far as opinion but I do still wonder if I am in the minority as far as actually experiencing and/or witnessing it?  Maybe I am or maybe I'm not, I really don't know.

I will say this, from what I see in airports, if you really want to get all hot and bothered about something, get excited and angry about this; the US armed forces personnel do a great deal of their moving about the country on commercial flights.  I watch those guys in their uniforms and carrying their gear wait in the same lines as I do and get submitted to the same inspections as me.  As far as I'm concerned they should be getting better VIP treatment than Obama.  At the very least they should get to use the first class lines.

I hear what you are saying but my point still is that they are not the ultimate power in the universe. I don't care that we had sub par security before and it certainly isn't any reason to have a fascism based system now. The knee-jerk profiling answer is hilarious. Pick out one stereotype and they just fix bombs up to someone who looks different. I wonder how all the profiling supporters will feel when they are the ones that fit the "profile". The not in my backyard mentality works great until it is in your backyard. And yes, I have been traveling by plane quite a bit over the past year and have been subjected to the wonderful full body scan so I guess that makes my position somehow more valid. 

[Ghoste]

It does.  What do you suggest though?  (besides stripping the TSA of power)

[clanton]

               
             
                 
                                                           
                                                                                                                                       
                                                 DO THE WAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                                                     
                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                           
   

[Rolling_Thunder]

I would also say that if you do what a TSO tells you the likelihood of you getting a pat-down is almost 0%...      use common sense. Don't wear baggy clothes, don't be a f!ck-tard, and just follow instructions.

If you're unsure about the new scanners because of radiation maybe you shouldn't be flying - as your flight will give you a LOT more radiation then the scanner.   

As for the Pat-down - you don't get "molested" - groin swipe (on either side of your "junk" - not over it) and the back of the hands over the buttocks...     

Our national opt out day was a dismal failure...    With tens of thousands of people traveling the day before thanksgiving - LAX as a whole had ~130 people opt out of the AIT machines...     I'll just say that its the people who never fly what seem to be crying about this...      not the people who actually fly...     

As far as profiling - it's not allowed  - TSA does however have people trained in behavior observations that can and do select people for additional screening when needed...    also the airlines impose additional screening when they feel it necessary.   

All in all -  TSA is not as bad as the media makes it out to be...     When  people get a pat-down the TSO usually get a "That's it?" at the end...     "yep - you're all done" ---    to which most passengers reply with  "So, what's the big deal about it?"  ---   "nothing"     

Don't get me wrong - there are PLENTY of people who should not be working at TSA there - the problem is older people were hired after Sept 11 (a lot of these people came from the Airline security fields) have passed their 2 year probation period and don't do anything wrong enough to get fired...     the newer hires seem to be fresh and not as burnt out on life or the job -

My best advice is if you feel you are mistreated in ANY way - ask for their supervisor - and discuss it with them...    if they are unreceptive then ask for a Terminal Manager - they will HAVE to get you in touch with them - as there is always one on duty.

[Old Moparz]

I rarely fly so whatever security measures become implemented, they won't hinder my routine like they could to a lot of other people. That means that aside from "definitions of our rights" regarding flying, I basically don't care what's done to "improve safety" for air travel. Am I willing to give up rights for safety? Not really, but I don't see the scanning & pat downs as giving up rights. You want to fly, then shut up & follow the same rules as the other passengers do to prove that you don't have a weapon or bomb on you.

If there is a standard, effective, & thorough method of screening that can be followed by not only all the airlines here in the USA, but by other countries as well, then it's not violating rights. It becomes a common sense method to ensure that an airplane can't be brought down by some extremist. What are you going to do, ask the passengers as they get on if they have a knife or exploding g-string? Yeah, that'll make us safe, use the honesty policy to weed terror out.

Maybe this sounds irrelevant or stupid, but I think Americans in general are insecure about their bodies & have been raised to be prudes, or to be embarrassed by what shouldn't be an issue. You can see it in the TV shows & advertising differences between here & other countries. People here are raised to think nudity is bad, sex is evil, you'll burn in hell for thinking certain thoughts. Be real. We're all the same animal & being checked for a knife in your waistband or some C4 in the crack of your ass shouldn't be a big deal unless you have these things in there.

I'd rather be scanned to get on a plane than have an EZ-Pass account that shows where I went, at what time, what day, & how long it took me to get there. One thing we can be sure of, whether we are any safer or not, is that there are people that are going to get very rich pushing for more security. Makers of the scanners, owners of subcontracted security companies, & associated businesses related to it. I can almost see the lobbyists now scaring people even more so they actually ask to be strip searched.

[nh_mopar_fan]

I'll go with Ann Coulter on this one.

Nice vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dae6Sl5O4&feature=player_embedded

"it ceases to be a profile, its called a description of the suspect."

[Richard Cranium]

Oh oh, it just went from bad to worse...........

[flyinlow]

Oh oh, it just went from bad to worse...........

And I have to go work on Monday.

[mauve66]

I rarely fly so whatever security measures become implemented, they won't hinder my routine like they could to a lot of other people. That means that aside from "definitions of our rights" regarding flying, I basically don't care what's done to "improve safety" for air travel. Am I willing to give up rights for safety? Not really, but I don't see the scanning & pat downs as giving up rights. You want to fly, then shut up & follow the same rules as the other passengers do to prove that you don't have a weapon or bomb on you.

If there is a standard, effective, & thorough method of screening that can be followed by not only all the airlines here in the USA, but by other countries as well, then it's not violating rights. It becomes a common sense method to ensure that an airplane can't be brought down by some extremist. What are you going to do, ask the passengers as they get on if they have a knife or exploding g-string? Yeah, that'll make us safe, use the honesty policy to weed terror out.

Maybe this sounds irrelevant or stupid, but I think Americans in general are insecure about their bodies & have been raised to be prudes, or to be embarrassed by what shouldn't be an issue. You can see it in the TV shows & advertising differences between here & other countries. People here are raised to think nudity is bad, sex is evil, you'll burn in hell for thinking certain thoughts. Be real. We're all the same animal & being checked for a knife in your waistband or some C4 in the crack of your ass shouldn't be a big deal unless you have these things in there.

I'd rather be scanned to get on a plane than have an EZ-Pass account that shows where I went, at what time, what day, & how long it took me to get there. One thing we can be sure of, whether we are any safer or not, is that there are people that are going to get very rich pushing for more security. Makers of the scanners, owners of subcontracted security companies, & associated businesses related to it. I can almost see the lobbyists now scaring people even more so they actually ask to be strip searched.

so you better get rid of your cell phone and any GM car
think about who gets rich from pushing GREEN energy issues.....................

[Old Moparz]

so you better get rid of your cell phone and any GM car
think about who gets rich from pushing GREEN energy issues.....................

I have a pre-paid cell phone & haven't owned a GM product since the early 80's when I had my '69 Hearse.   

Anyone pushing green energy issues, or "any" issue, has an agenda that's usually motivated by money. I don't have a problem with that because I believe in free enterprise. What I do have a problem with, is the lobbying & palm greasing that goes on by a small number of people that only have their own interests in mind. This only benefits small numbers of people, not the masses.

[nh_mopar_fan]

It was meant to be elementary.  No points for picking up on it though.
Here's the thing; I read how everyone is so pissed that the TSA would dare invade their privacy by touching them (not to mention the implication through the act that the touchee might be a security threat ) and the only alternative that has been suggested is to take anyone who looks Muslim out of the line and only put them through the wringer.  While I agree with profiling, the chances of it becoming written policy in "The Great Melting Pot" are pretty much nil.  So what else?
Not to mention that in all of this uproar, I can't help but wonder how many of the people who are upset by it have flown since the policy came into effect?  How about in the last month?  Last year?  Ever?  Some yes, perhaps even everyone on this forum who has found it to be such an abominable attack on their rights.  So far the ones who have spoken firsthand about the TSA experience have been a pilot, a TSA officer and two passengers.  Of the two flyers, one witnessed an incident that does indeed sound over the line.  The other (me) hasn't seen anything like that yet.  I fly commercially between two and eight times a month from a variety of airports and the TSA have always been great to deal with.  Yes, there are times I have seen them get high on themselves and there are many more times where I have seen them becoming exasperated with people.  It seems like no matter how far ahead they go in the line to explain to people what they need to do when they reach the inspection point, people still become deer in the headlights when they get to the belt and scanner.  Do they deserve to be treated like crap?  Absolutely not.  But have you ever become impatient with someone after having to explain the same simple routine to them over and over and over and over and over?
You can call it theater if you wish but the US was noted worldwide for having some of the worst airport security measures bar none prior to the mass murder committed against civilians just going into their cublicles to do their little jobs on 9/11.  The airport bs has gotten worse since then but I personally haven't found it to be objectionable in the grans scheme of things.  Obviously I am in the minority on this as far as opinion but I do still wonder if I am in the minority as far as actually experiencing and/or witnessing it?  Maybe I am or maybe I'm not, I really don't know.

I will say this, from what I see in airports, if you really want to get all hot and bothered about something, get excited and angry about this; the US armed forces personnel do a great deal of their moving about the country on commercial flights.  I watch those guys in their uniforms and carrying their gear wait in the same lines as I do and get submitted to the same inspections as me.  As far as I'm concerned they should be getting better VIP treatment than Obama.  At the very least they should get to use the first class lines.

I hear what you are saying but my point still is that they are not the ultimate power in the universe. I don't care that we had sub par security before and it certainly isn't any reason to have a fascism based system now. The knee-jerk profiling answer is hilarious. Pick out one stereotype and they just fix bombs up to someone who looks different. I wonder how all the profiling supporters will feel when they are the ones that fit the "profile". The not in my backyard mentality works great until it is in your backyard. And yes, I have been traveling by plane quite a bit over the past year and have been subjected to the wonderful full body scan so I guess that makes my position somehow more valid.  

Knee jerk profilers? You may want to check with the Israelis. They seem to be pretty good at this airline security thing. If you've been in the locker room at the gym, you've seen more of me that this evil body scan.

[bakerhillpins]

It does.  What do you suggest though?  (besides stripping the TSA of power)

First, I am not advocating the total removal of security, I just want to be sure to strike a good balance between the rights that I have because of this great country and that many have fought and died for. I feel that I will disrespect them if I don't value these rights and cherish them. After all, many have given their lives and for me to just brush them aside... well, its just not cool.

I suppose for me its the general lack of publication of what my rights are as a passenger and more importantly how I can resolve an issue without screwing myself out of my seat? They make plenty of threats that I "fall into line" [my words not theirs] or I will be detained, arrested, molested, etc. Someone mentioned that you can't even record the security operations? Is this true? That's just stupid.

They do have info posted here which is a start but issue resolution is all about if someone is available and after the fact:
http://www.tsa.gov/research/civilrights/civilrights_travelers.shtm

Knee jerk profilers? You may want to check with the Israelis. They seem to be pretty good at this airline security thing.

Israeli is also effectively a police state. Are you up for that? I'm not!

[Ghoste]

I can understand them not wanting it recorded though if it gives someone an opportunity to study for weaknesses.  For that matter, local police aren't too appreciative if you record them at work (but that's a whole 'nother debate  ).

[bakerhillpins]

I can understand them not wanting it recorded though if it gives someone an opportunity to study for weaknesses.  For that matter, local police aren't too appreciative if you record them at work (but that's a whole 'nother debate  ).

Yea, but you can walk up with out a ticket and watch? What's the difference? For that matter just buy a ticket for $200 and simply take notes? I just flew out of Denver and you can walk into the airport and go shopping in stores which are distributed on an upper level overlooking the entire security section? Its like it's all laid out for you. If it is true, to me it's all about them trying to avoid "getting busted" on video. Which is the police debate...  sorry.

[Ghoste]

Come to think of it, there are more than a few like that (with a shopping concourse overseeing the security checkpoint).

[nh_mopar_fan]

It does.  What do you suggest though?  (besides stripping the TSA of power)

First, I am not advocating the total removal of security, I just want to be sure to strike a good balance between the rights that I have because of this great country and that many have fought and died for. I feel that I will disrespect them if I don't value these rights and cherish them. After all, many have given their lives and for me to just brush them aside... well, its just not cool.

I suppose for me its the general lack of publication of what my rights are as a passenger and more importantly how I can resolve an issue without screwing myself out of my seat? They make plenty of threats that I "fall into line" [my words not theirs] or I will be detained, arrested, molested, etc. Someone mentioned that you can't even record the security operations? Is this true? That's just stupid.

They do have info posted here which is a start but issue resolution is all about if someone is available and after the fact:
http://www.tsa.gov/research/civilrights/civilrights_travelers.shtm

Knee jerk profilers? You may want to check with the Israelis. They seem to be pretty good at this airline security thing.

Israeli is also effectively a police state. Are you up for that? I'm not!

non sequitur.

On one hand you complain about the security checks and then on the other, you're ridiculing the very thing that will stop most of it, profiling. The Israelis do it and it's proven to work. I understand why you went to the police state argument, it's hard to argue with their results. Have you ever gone through Israeli security? It's completely unintrusive.

[flyinlow]

If you feel you have been mistreated by a TSA Agent ,ask to talk to a supervisor. If you can not get a satisfactory solution with him, there are comment cards and receptacles at most check points. You can also go to The TSA website and fill out a complaint form . None of this will help if the Agent is following the current policy or procedure. However if enough Citizens complain , the TSA may change the policy.

The Airline you are using is also a place to voice your complaint. Explain why you are unhappy and may consider alternative means of transportation. One person won't normally change things ,but a good sized loss of revenue will get there attention. Sometimes we can not change the way we operate do to TSA,FAA or DOT rules.

Contact Your Congressmen and tell him you want the TSA doctrine changed.

All of these websites can be reached with the inflight wi-fi while the event is still fresh in your mind. Assuming you did not get in a pissing match with the TSA and miss your flight.  

[elacruze]

They're supposed to keep the bad guys off the planes.  So everyone who is so opposed to this horrible inconvenience, how about suggesting some alternatives?

1. "Accurate description of Suspect" (AKA 'Profiling'. It works)
2. Don't do anything. Let anybody on the plane with anything they want. Let those who don't like that, take the train.

My "Big Brother" is the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, in their originally intended context.

[nh_mopar_fan]

The case for profiling made by a Muslim.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-11-29/airport-security-lets-profile-muslims/full/

[Ghoste]

They're supposed to keep the bad guys off the planes.  So everyone who is so opposed to this horrible inconvenience, how about suggesting some alternatives?

1. "Accurate description of Suspect" (AKA 'Profiling'. It works)
2. Don't do anything. Let anybody on the plane with anything they want. Let those who don't like that, take the train.

My "Big Brother" is the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, in their originally intended context.

Yes, especially number two.  That is a wonderful fantastic idea and if the a-holes start bringing bombs on trains, then anyone who doesn't like it can just walk.  And if they get ambushed walking, well, we'll just have shootouts and whoever is still standing at the end wins.  Just like the old west.  Yeah, that'll work.  of course the muslims outnumber us so there is a slight chance they'll win by attrition but who cares, as long as we don't let anybody tell us what we can or cannot do or carry on our person.  Up to and including biological, chemical, dirty nukes, whatever you can devise and carry it's all right.  Thankfully we don't have to worrry about safety and security for anyone because there aren't any enshrined rights to safety or security for the nations citizenry.

And I realize you probably won't believe me but my personal opinion about the US Constitution is that it is the best thought out form of governance yet and it's a shame that more of the world couldn't try it.  I also believe that ignoring it is one of the reasons the free world is in the mess it is in.  You may also not believe this but I am also of the opinion that it should be the terrorists who are inconvenienced not the people they are attacking.  Unfortunately, that has been a hard case to take.  Turning back the clock on airline security may be wonderful for those who are truly stressed about it but the real winners won't be the group who are NOT bringing weapons on a plane and are pissy because they have to prove it, it will be the ones who are pissed because right now, it's more difficult.

[elacruze]

<oops wrong thread, edit>

There's another solution, too; get off the plane if you profile someone you think might have a bomb. But perhaps, I take my personal responsibility a little too seriously.

[Ghoste]

I don't think you do.  You may again not believe me, but I am also of the opinion that we have become too reliant on the government to take care of us.  (I have to be sounding like a hypocrite or a self contradicting fool to many but it's a difficult issue to properly discuss in this fashion)

[elacruze]

I don't think you do.  You may again not believe me, but I am also of the opinion that we have become too reliant on the government to take care of us.  (I have to be sounding like a hypocrite or a self contradicting fool to many but it's a difficult issue to properly discuss in this fashion)

Yep, we have.

[flyinlow]

I remember an episode of All In The Family and they where talking about Hijackings. Archie said, " We should issue everybody who gets on an airliner a gun. Then if somebody tries to Hijack the flight everybody can pull a gun and get the drop on the Hijacker"  We all laughed... but....

Back then Hijackers wanted a free ride to Cuba. Today they want to kill a plane full of people (bad) or use the aircraft as a cruise missile (worse). While I can not discuss Airline security measures on this forum, our procedures have changed as much as what the flying public have since 9-11.

If the rules changed tomorrow and the flights became wide open I doubt any Airlines would operate. No insurance company would cover the Hull and liability.
Insurance coverage was one of the big issues in  resuming operations after the 9-11 shutdown. If the government had not taken steps to limit the liability of the airlines involved , I doubt American and United would be around today.

Profilling is not the absolute solution. It is part of it and can help maximize the return on your security dollars, but if you stopped looking at non-profilled individuals they could used to bring contraban on-board.

[flyinlow]

You may again not believe me, but I am also of the opinion that we have become too reliant on the government to take care of us. 

I agree.
Don't get on a flight that has other passengers that you are not comfortable riding with.
If I am ever a passenger in a flight that gets hijacked I am not going to die on my knees. Americans on United Flight 93  (9-11) and Northwest flight 253 (underwear bomber) made choices that made a difference.