Anyone on this site have a competitive pro touring charger???

[MedPhys]

I'll shed a little background on myself.  I've been a member of this site for quite a while, but this is the first time back in a long time.  My charger is in the garage supporting various boxes and other items.  My most recent project is a 300 whp mazda miata.  While at barber motorsports park (this is a very technical road course), I was passed by a what looked like a 68 roadrunner.  This peaked my curiosity as it contained everything I would want in the same car.  Great handling and classic muscle car.  I'm not really interested in driving around town in a car that "looks like" a pro touring car.  I'm interested in researching the parts, time, and money needed to get a competitive pro touring charger together, and if it is really feasible.  A point n the direction of any build threads would be great.  Please don't link me to "I lowered my car, put 19' wheels on it, and have great paint" , now I cruise around town in my pro touring clone.  Thanks, David

[Brock Samson]

welcome back after your customary two yr. hiatus! 

look up Mr. Angry's two chargers = Mr. Angry and Angryier...
I think Autodynamics and a couple guys in the Netherlands have what could be considered Pro touring...
And you did do a search right?.. 
How the kid and the job?..
                                               

[suntech]

Hi there

Norwaycharger has a nice build tread on here. A very nice car, that was awarded as Muscle Car of the year here in Norway, a couple of years ago. It was badly damaged in a fire in Arne´s (the owner) body shop. But it will raise again, better than ever.

I have also a 68, that will be a pro touring car. The project has been on a stand still due to customs " issues" that btw is solved now, and i will pick up all the missing parts as soon as i am back from work. ( working in Korea) . It will be on stand still for another year now, since i just bought a farm, and i want to build my own workshop next to the house before i really get going.
Anyways, what i am doing is:

Chassis/ body: XV motorsport subframe connectors and rad support. Torque boxes. Shaved driprails, carbon fibre hood and trunk lid.
Motor: 611 full aluminum hemi, fuel injected. Tim Banning @ FHO is working on it, and it will be dynoed as a carb motor by him, and i will build a custom manifold, with front faced throttle housing when i get it home.
Griffin aluminium radiator, with double pull fans.
Gearcase: Either a Tremec T-56 from D&D, or a Passon 5 speed. ( not purshased yet)
Rearend: Mark Williams modular, with aluminum complete center, oil pump/filter/cooler.
Front suspention and brakes: XV level 2
Rear suspention and brakes: XV level 2, but the 3 link/ panhard setup will be modified to a 4 link/ wattslink setup.

Not decided if i am going with a roll cage or not, since it is hard to get that combined with a nice interior. Sparco Milano 2 front seats.
Wheels will be 9,5 x 18, with 275/35 up front, and 12x18, with 335/30 rear. tires will be Toyo proxes R888.

[Tom Q]

I just finished a 1970 Charger R/T set up to fly, handle corners and STOP!.  Some call it pro touring, you asked for competitive, i call it well thought out.  The list of "stuff" is long, i don't have time right now to type it. I will be testing the car at Watkins Glen International Racetrack in spring 2011.  If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big.

[knitz01]

TomQ if this is the wrong place were do we go to get the info we need?

[suntech]

If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big.

We are not talking about wopping ass on modern state of the art racecars here, BUT.........a big car is not nessasarly a bad thing.
Whellbase makes a different in drivability, and a longer wheelbase makes it easier to drive the car on it´s limits.Get a well balanced suspention is the ticket IMO. And for it´s size you can make it pretty damn light, using the right parts. My goal is to get around 3500 lbs, with as close to 50/50 weight ratio as possible. The motor is in the ballpark of 220 lbs lighter than my old cast iron big block, the XV front end assembly another 60+ lbs less, aluminium radiator, carbon fibre hood, battery in trunk etc...we are talking well over 300 lbs taken away from the nose, and not much added to the back, so i think i will get close to my 50/50 goal.
The front suspention is very similar to corvette C5, and rear suspention like any full blown racecar...........add 800 helthy ponies to that, and i think many will be in for a surprize. 

Tom Q : give us at least the basic spec on your ride.....that does´nt take to long!!

[HPP]

I'm curious what exactly a "competitive" pro touring car is. Since there is no universal sanctioning body for pro touring racing, this can be a very broad spectrum of cars that could include verything from production stock SCCA cars to over the top, spare no expense, no rules to limit you, killer cars like the Johnson Shop Cuda. The goodguys autocross has not particular set of rules other than tire wear limitations, most open track days only have safety requirements, so the closest thing to any organized racing may be the NASA American iron series, which is typically dominated by later model GM F bodies. Since it is a power to weight formula, you could run a Charger, but would need to have a decent sized sheetmetal budget sinc eit is real racing and not just cruising aroudn the track type of events.

In general terms, stiffen up the unibody, step up wheel rates, match the chassis balance,  and get modern rubber with the biggest brakes to match your wheel size. So, before any direction can really get too specific, definition of what competitive venue is being pursued is paramount to the range, scope, and type of modifications that are allowed.

[Tom Q]

This is the dodge charger forum, mostly for show poodles, restorations and drivers. I am being realistic, not insulting.


If you want to take a B body and "compete" you need to consult with race car builders and sanctioning bodies like scca. To build a "street" car for the track you will get some help here, but first-as well put by HPP: "So, before any direction can really get too specific, definition of what competitive venue is being pursued is paramount to the range, scope, and type of modifications that are allowed."

And last but not least: Show me the money as well, how much money is there to spend??

[suntech]

To me a pro touring car is a car that is build for speed and handling on roads and roadcourses. A competitive one, would to me be a car that could be compareble in performance with a modern mucle car, like the Corvette, Viper etc, meaning brutal power, and modern suspention and brakes, that works nice together! Some like nice finish on the car, some like the "race look". Me....i like the race look, in nice finish, and a nice interior. No bling, but nice. A pro touring car for me has also to be road legal.

And last but not least: Show me the money as well, how much money is there to spend??

Not sure if i understand what you mean here.....    You can spend how much you want..... it is your car and your money!!
How much do you have in your car? it is hard for us to get an idea, not knowing what parts you used to get it to fly, handle and STOP! What we can see, is just a 70 charger with a blacked out hood, and app 15 x 8 wheels, and quite high profile tires. Does´nt tell us much

[charger2fast4u]

If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big.

We are not talking about wopping ass on modern state of the art racecars here, BUT.........a big car is not nessasarly a bad thing.
Whellbase makes a different in drivability, and a longer wheelbase makes it easier to drive the car on it´s limits.Get a well balanced suspention is the ticket IMO. And for it´s size you can make it pretty damn light, using the right parts. My goal is to get around 3500 lbs, with as close to 50/50 weight ratio as possible. The motor is in the ballpark of 220 lbs lighter than my old cast iron big block, the XV front end assembly another 60+ lbs less, aluminium radiator, carbon fibre hood, battery in trunk etc...we are talking well over 300 lbs taken away from the nose, and not much added to the back, so i think i will get close to my 50/50 goal.
The front suspention is very similar to corvette C5, and rear suspention like any full blown racecar...........add 800 helthy ponies to that, and i think many will be in for a surprize. 

Tom Q : give us at least the basic spec on your ride.....that does´nt take to long!!

what type of xv front end will you be going with? is it the tubular k frame unit they sell you'll be getting? also where would you be getting the carbon fiber hood and trunk lid at? i can't find them anywhere.

[suntech]

I have the Level II front end from XV motorsports. The tubular one i have seen is from Magnumforce.
Carbon fibre hood and trunk lid I will make myself. Raced boats for 3 decades, and buildt a bunch of boats, and familiar with carbon.

[RallyeMike]

Tom Q : give us at least the basic spec on your ride.....that does´nt take to long!!

I'm interested to hear some basics too. Everyone has their own twist on "competitive" and "pro-touring". I'd love to hear the specs on the car.

This is the dodge charger forum, mostly for show poodles, restorations and drivers. I am being realistic, not insulting.

Pssst .....hey, Tom:  "Show poodle" is pretty much insulting  

Whellbase makes a different in drivability, and a longer wheelbase makes it easier to drive the car on it´s limits.

Huh? Are you talking Top Fuel, Bonneville, Maxton? Certainly not this subject. You need a balance of various factors.

[nvrbdn]

This is the dodge charger forum, mostly for show poodles, restorations and drivers.

i thought we were just all charger lovers. i wouldnt dis you because you want pro tour equipment on your car!! oops gotta go, my poodle, i mean charger just peed in the driveway. 

[suntech]

Huh? Are you talking Top Fuel, Bonneville, Maxton? Certainly not this subject. You need a balance of various factors.

No........not talking about that. What i was saying was.......based on TomQ´s statement that it waaayyyyyyy to big to be a fast car.............that a car with a longer wheelbase is easier to drive hard, just because it is less nervous, than a shorter wheelbase car. A longer wheelbase car is easier to correct and hold on a drift/ slide if you come in to the turn a little to agressive. A shorter wheelbase car is has a quicker response, and demands more of the driver in the same situation. Hence my opinion that a longer weelbase car is easier to drive up against, and sometimes over it´s limits
I am working a lot on suspention on a rallycross car, and it is really interresting to see the the effect of springrates, damper settings, CG movment, linkarm angles etc.  Totally agree that it is the combination of a lot of factors that makes it drivable  

[RallyeMike]

Ah.. understood. True. Carry on 

[68X426]

MedPhys: check out this site. http://www.protouringmopar.com/forum.php

[MedPhys]

welcome back after your customary two yr. hiatus! 

look up Mr. Angry's two chargers = Mr. Angry and Angryier...
I think Autodynamics and a couple guys in the Netherlands have what could be considered Pro touring...
And you did do a search right?.. 
How the kid and the job?..
                                               

ha, the baby is great!  She is almost three now and has as much attitude as the cars in this thread.  "I don't want to."  "Don't tell me no!"  That sort of thing.  Good thing she is cute   The job isgood as well.  Finally out of grad school and been in the field for almost 4 yrs.  I chose the right path.  yay.

Let me define competitive.  I used the term loosely to try and weed out the advice that would get my car lowered with big wheels, but no suspension upgrades, etc.  Show and no go.  I'm not looking at SCCA comp, but I want to know if folks are able to keep up with modern cars at a track day.  Corvette Z06 owners are quite surprised when they get beat by a miata.  Imagine my surprise when an old muscle car dove into a corner faster that I was, and in a car that was probably 1500 lbs heavier.

Does everyone feel the XV stuff is the best, or is it just because it was once out of reach for the avg joe and now it is more affordable?  What about the RMS stuff?  Not as custom, less fab, appears to use very quality parts.  Those are the main two that I have read about, and not seen any complaints.  I like bang for the buck.  Hence the 300 whp miata, and not a lotus. 

If I am told that I will do all of this and my car will still be slow around a track compared to more modern cars vette, sti, evo, porsche, etc.  I would be more inclined to keep the charger closer to stock with modest suspension upgrades (not changing entire suspension geometry and components), and keep a dedicated track car.  I'd rather be seen in the charger any day over the miata.  If I can combine two hobbies into a single car, then I see it as a win win.  Thanks for all of the replies

[MedPhys]

adjusted my subscribe settings so I receive email notification. This is to subscribe to my own thread

[suntech]

We are on the same page regarding how we describe the terms used 
I choosed the XV because of the weight, and it seemed to be a step up towards the " no compromize" way i want to go. BTW i bought it  while it was 7500 plus brakes
The RMS piece is also very nice i think, and like you say, i think this is the 2 that are the best.
What powerplant are you planning?

[MedPhys]

We are on the same page regarding how we describe the terms used 
I choosed the XV because of the weight, and it seemed to be a step up towards the " no compromize" way i want to go. BTW i bought it  while it was 7500 plus brakes
The RMS piece is also very nice i think, and like you say, i think this is the 2 that are the best.
What powerplant are you planning?

I'm running a built 440 with worked cast iron heads.  The car has been sitting for a long while.  The engine will be pulled and gone through so that there are no surprises.  I'm not sure what I want to do for power moving forward.  Keep what I have.  I really enjoy the classic lope in the idle.  However, technology has come a long way.  It would be nice to have a modern fuel injected power plant that isn't effected by weather changes becuase the computer controls the fuel based on temp, pressure, and engine load.  I haven't looked into a suitable modern power plant.  Going with an aluminum block and aluminum heads would shave a ton of weight and get the weight distribution closer to a 50/50 split.

How difficult was the XV installation.  I've heard it takes a lot of welding.  (skills I don't have)  RMS is all bolt in.  (skills I have)  Looking over systems from both companies.  My opinion is that the XV is superior, however the cost of parts plus installation is significantly more.  The RMS system appears to be the best of the "off the shelf" products.  I'm unaware of any head to head track comparison n two very similar vehicles.

[68pplcharger]

MedPhys: check out this site. http://www.protouringmopar.com/forum.php

Cool site thanks

[HPP]

So we've established there is no rules set to adhere to, which will leave it pretty wide open. The next object to consider is cost.

IMO, the stock geometry is not too bad. It isn't pefect, but it is years ahead of the competition of the era. As such, you can significantly improve the car with careful selection of springs, shocks, t-bars and s-bars and do this for under a couple grand.  This would be the equivilent of the XV level 1 system or the Hotchkis TVS set ups, although both of those take slightly different appraoches to their results. XV seems to take the approach up stepped up wheel rates and shock control. Hotchkis uses geometry correction and shock rates. You could actually mix and match these two and come up with a pretty decent combo. Mix and match

Next step up cost wise is the Alterkation, Blue Zombie or CAP tubular set ups. AlterK  is the originator of this design and has the most units out in the field.  Big advantage to these systems is they are lighter weight than the stock stuff, around 50-60# less, and use coil over spring set ups. Since they are a clean sheet design, they tend to have better geometry set up and the adjustability and ease of spring changes and ride height that come with coil overs is well established. Expect to spend around $7k for these systems. They are based on mustang 2 parts, so replacements are easy to find and options abound.

XV level 2 is probably the most sophisticated and expensive of the bunch. Fabbed of aluminum tube and based off of Corvette parts, they also are a coil over system with all its advantages and pitfalls. I think the going price on these is around $10k.

It goes without saying that bracing the subframes andunibody structure  to take advantage of these systems is foundational work that is required to get the most out of any direction you choose. Since you have experience with road course work, no discussion on tires is required, but brakes will be a point to consider. Pushing 3800# into a corner repeatedly requires as much brake as you can stuff in to the wheel size you chose. Don't scrimp here and make sure they are fed large amounts of fresh air.

[MedPhys]

So we've established there is no rules set to adhere to, which will leave it pretty wide open. The next object to consider is cost.

IMO, the stock geometry is not too bad. It isn't pefect, but it is years ahead of the competition of the era. As such, you can significantly improve the car with careful selection of springs, shocks, t-bars and s-bars and do this for under a couple grand.  This would be the equivilent of the XV level 1 system or the Hotchkis TVS set ups, although both of those take slightly different appraoches to their results. XV seems to take the approach up stepped up wheel rates and shock control. Hotchkis uses geometry correction and shock rates. You could actually mix and match these two and come up with a pretty decent combo. Mix and match

Next step up cost wise is the Alterkation, Blue Zombie or CAP tubular set ups. AlterK  is the originator of this design and has the most units out in the field.  Big advantage to these systems is they are lighter weight than the stock stuff, around 50-60# less, and use coil over spring set ups. Since they are a clean sheet design, they tend to have better geometry set up and the adjustability and ease of spring changes and ride height that come with coil overs is well established. Expect to spend around $7k for these systems. They are based on mustang 2 parts, so replacements are easy to find and options abound.

XV level 2 is probably the most sophisticated and expensive of the bunch. Fabbed of aluminum tube and based off of Corvette parts, they also are a coil over system with all its advantages and pitfalls. I think the going price on these is around $10k.

It goes without saying that bracing the subframes andunibody structure  to take advantage of these systems is foundational work that is required to get the most out of any direction you choose. Since you have experience with road course work, no discussion on tires is required, but brakes will be a point to consider. Pushing 3800# into a corner repeatedly requires as much brake as you can stuff in to the wheel size you chose. Don't scrimp here and make sure they are fed large amounts of fresh air.

Great info.  I was unaware of Blue Zombie and CAP, I'll have to look into those two.  FYI XV level 2 is on sale right now.  It will be a while before I buy.  I want my game plan to be solid and realistic.  The nice thing about my miat is that it is cheap.  Hindsight has shown me a few things.  I want to apply this knowledge to the charger project.  I will also look into the stock geometry upgrades.  There is info floating around that someone has a pretty succesful setup with a stock geometry setup.  I do like the underdog approach.  I think that is another reason tht steers me away from XV.  That's another debate I guess.
I would go with 14" and 13" rotor setup.  This appears to call for a 18-19" wheel.  I will fit the wheels to the brakes, not the other way around.  I like the idea of the coilovers for ride height adjustment.  Chassis stiffening is a must.  Even my little miata has frame rail stiffening, roll bar,door bars, shock tower brace, etc.

At the end of the day, I think I am looking for a budget XV level 2 system, but not one that I have to piece together myself.

[Brock Samson]

As regards the Motor - Kenny Wayne Sheppard KWS as he's known around here -- has a new car, a mid '6os B-bod with a modern HEMI 6.1 with all the modern EFI and Cats and such...
                http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298256
'n Surely the Oly. Charger though a full on race Car,.. Has some lessons that may be useful.
                 http://www.olympia-charger.com/

I feel the "Showpuddle" comment was meant as a Dig. at some of the trailered cars known around here...   
I got it... 

 

[MedPhys]

Anyone have any info or links to a Hotchkis TVS equipped charger.  I visited the website, and I'll be honest.  For $3k, the parts look like a bag of ass.  Whatever works I guess.  I think I liek the idea of a system that has researched the springs and shocks with the setups.  However, this can be misleading.  Remove 500 lbs of weight from your car, and all of a sudden the shocks and springs may not be the matched to the setup anymore.

I use Bernie Stewart at stewart development in High Point, NC for revalving my bilsteins to custom springs, sway bars, ride height, etc.  I bet I could have him do the same for a hotchkis setup. 

One this is certain:  A lot of research is needed before diving in.  The total cost of the project is all over the place. AND  I'm not even sure that the performance vs cost is lienear.  i.e. lowest cost yields lowest performanc and highest cost yields highest performance.

I feel a headache coming on......