Anyone on this site have a competitive pro touring charger???

[MedPhys]

I'll shed a little background on myself.  I've been a member of this site for quite a while, but this is the first time back in a long time.  My charger is in the garage supporting various boxes and other items.  My most recent project is a 300 whp mazda miata.  While at barber motorsports park (this is a very technical road course), I was passed by a what looked like a 68 roadrunner.  This peaked my curiosity as it contained everything I would want in the same car.  Great handling and classic muscle car.  I'm not really interested in driving around town in a car that "looks like" a pro touring car.  I'm interested in researching the parts, time, and money needed to get a competitive pro touring charger together, and if it is really feasible.  A point n the direction of any build threads would be great.  Please don't link me to "I lowered my car, put 19' wheels on it, and have great paint" , now I cruise around town in my pro touring clone.  Thanks, David

[Brock Samson]

welcome back after your customary two yr. hiatus! 

look up Mr. Angry's two chargers = Mr. Angry and Angryier...
I think Autodynamics and a couple guys in the Netherlands have what could be considered Pro touring...
And you did do a search right?.. 
How the kid and the job?..
                                               

[suntech]

Hi there

Norwaycharger has a nice build tread on here. A very nice car, that was awarded as Muscle Car of the year here in Norway, a couple of years ago. It was badly damaged in a fire in Arne´s (the owner) body shop. But it will raise again, better than ever.

I have also a 68, that will be a pro touring car. The project has been on a stand still due to customs " issues" that btw is solved now, and i will pick up all the missing parts as soon as i am back from work. ( working in Korea) . It will be on stand still for another year now, since i just bought a farm, and i want to build my own workshop next to the house before i really get going.
Anyways, what i am doing is:

Chassis/ body: XV motorsport subframe connectors and rad support. Torque boxes. Shaved driprails, carbon fibre hood and trunk lid.
Motor: 611 full aluminum hemi, fuel injected. Tim Banning @ FHO is working on it, and it will be dynoed as a carb motor by him, and i will build a custom manifold, with front faced throttle housing when i get it home.
Griffin aluminium radiator, with double pull fans.
Gearcase: Either a Tremec T-56 from D&D, or a Passon 5 speed. ( not purshased yet)
Rearend: Mark Williams modular, with aluminum complete center, oil pump/filter/cooler.
Front suspention and brakes: XV level 2
Rear suspention and brakes: XV level 2, but the 3 link/ panhard setup will be modified to a 4 link/ wattslink setup.

Not decided if i am going with a roll cage or not, since it is hard to get that combined with a nice interior. Sparco Milano 2 front seats.
Wheels will be 9,5 x 18, with 275/35 up front, and 12x18, with 335/30 rear. tires will be Toyo proxes R888.

[Tom Q]

I just finished a 1970 Charger R/T set up to fly, handle corners and STOP!.  Some call it pro touring, you asked for competitive, i call it well thought out.  The list of "stuff" is long, i don't have time right now to type it. I will be testing the car at Watkins Glen International Racetrack in spring 2011.  If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big.

[knitz01]

TomQ if this is the wrong place were do we go to get the info we need?

[suntech]

If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big.

We are not talking about wopping ass on modern state of the art racecars here, BUT.........a big car is not nessasarly a bad thing.
Whellbase makes a different in drivability, and a longer wheelbase makes it easier to drive the car on it´s limits.Get a well balanced suspention is the ticket IMO. And for it´s size you can make it pretty damn light, using the right parts. My goal is to get around 3500 lbs, with as close to 50/50 weight ratio as possible. The motor is in the ballpark of 220 lbs lighter than my old cast iron big block, the XV front end assembly another 60+ lbs less, aluminium radiator, carbon fibre hood, battery in trunk etc...we are talking well over 300 lbs taken away from the nose, and not much added to the back, so i think i will get close to my 50/50 goal.
The front suspention is very similar to corvette C5, and rear suspention like any full blown racecar...........add 800 helthy ponies to that, and i think many will be in for a surprize. 

Tom Q : give us at least the basic spec on your ride.....that does´nt take to long!!

[HPP]

I'm curious what exactly a "competitive" pro touring car is. Since there is no universal sanctioning body for pro touring racing, this can be a very broad spectrum of cars that could include verything from production stock SCCA cars to over the top, spare no expense, no rules to limit you, killer cars like the Johnson Shop Cuda. The goodguys autocross has not particular set of rules other than tire wear limitations, most open track days only have safety requirements, so the closest thing to any organized racing may be the NASA American iron series, which is typically dominated by later model GM F bodies. Since it is a power to weight formula, you could run a Charger, but would need to have a decent sized sheetmetal budget sinc eit is real racing and not just cruising aroudn the track type of events.

In general terms, stiffen up the unibody, step up wheel rates, match the chassis balance,  and get modern rubber with the biggest brakes to match your wheel size. So, before any direction can really get too specific, definition of what competitive venue is being pursued is paramount to the range, scope, and type of modifications that are allowed.

[Tom Q]

This is the dodge charger forum, mostly for show poodles, restorations and drivers. I am being realistic, not insulting.


If you want to take a B body and "compete" you need to consult with race car builders and sanctioning bodies like scca. To build a "street" car for the track you will get some help here, but first-as well put by HPP: "So, before any direction can really get too specific, definition of what competitive venue is being pursued is paramount to the range, scope, and type of modifications that are allowed."

And last but not least: Show me the money as well, how much money is there to spend??

[suntech]

To me a pro touring car is a car that is build for speed and handling on roads and roadcourses. A competitive one, would to me be a car that could be compareble in performance with a modern mucle car, like the Corvette, Viper etc, meaning brutal power, and modern suspention and brakes, that works nice together! Some like nice finish on the car, some like the "race look". Me....i like the race look, in nice finish, and a nice interior. No bling, but nice. A pro touring car for me has also to be road legal.

And last but not least: Show me the money as well, how much money is there to spend??

Not sure if i understand what you mean here.....    You can spend how much you want..... it is your car and your money!!
How much do you have in your car? it is hard for us to get an idea, not knowing what parts you used to get it to fly, handle and STOP! What we can see, is just a 70 charger with a blacked out hood, and app 15 x 8 wheels, and quite high profile tires. Does´nt tell us much

[charger2fast4u]

If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big.

We are not talking about wopping ass on modern state of the art racecars here, BUT.........a big car is not nessasarly a bad thing.
Whellbase makes a different in drivability, and a longer wheelbase makes it easier to drive the car on it´s limits.Get a well balanced suspention is the ticket IMO. And for it´s size you can make it pretty damn light, using the right parts. My goal is to get around 3500 lbs, with as close to 50/50 weight ratio as possible. The motor is in the ballpark of 220 lbs lighter than my old cast iron big block, the XV front end assembly another 60+ lbs less, aluminium radiator, carbon fibre hood, battery in trunk etc...we are talking well over 300 lbs taken away from the nose, and not much added to the back, so i think i will get close to my 50/50 goal.
The front suspention is very similar to corvette C5, and rear suspention like any full blown racecar...........add 800 helthy ponies to that, and i think many will be in for a surprize. 

Tom Q : give us at least the basic spec on your ride.....that does´nt take to long!!

what type of xv front end will you be going with? is it the tubular k frame unit they sell you'll be getting? also where would you be getting the carbon fiber hood and trunk lid at? i can't find them anywhere.

[suntech]

I have the Level II front end from XV motorsports. The tubular one i have seen is from Magnumforce.
Carbon fibre hood and trunk lid I will make myself. Raced boats for 3 decades, and buildt a bunch of boats, and familiar with carbon.

[RallyeMike]

Tom Q : give us at least the basic spec on your ride.....that does´nt take to long!!

I'm interested to hear some basics too. Everyone has their own twist on "competitive" and "pro-touring". I'd love to hear the specs on the car.

This is the dodge charger forum, mostly for show poodles, restorations and drivers. I am being realistic, not insulting.

Pssst .....hey, Tom:  "Show poodle" is pretty much insulting  

Whellbase makes a different in drivability, and a longer wheelbase makes it easier to drive the car on it´s limits.

Huh? Are you talking Top Fuel, Bonneville, Maxton? Certainly not this subject. You need a balance of various factors.

[nvrbdn]

This is the dodge charger forum, mostly for show poodles, restorations and drivers.

i thought we were just all charger lovers. i wouldnt dis you because you want pro tour equipment on your car!! oops gotta go, my poodle, i mean charger just peed in the driveway. 

[suntech]

Huh? Are you talking Top Fuel, Bonneville, Maxton? Certainly not this subject. You need a balance of various factors.

No........not talking about that. What i was saying was.......based on TomQ´s statement that it waaayyyyyyy to big to be a fast car.............that a car with a longer wheelbase is easier to drive hard, just because it is less nervous, than a shorter wheelbase car. A longer wheelbase car is easier to correct and hold on a drift/ slide if you come in to the turn a little to agressive. A shorter wheelbase car is has a quicker response, and demands more of the driver in the same situation. Hence my opinion that a longer weelbase car is easier to drive up against, and sometimes over it´s limits
I am working a lot on suspention on a rallycross car, and it is really interresting to see the the effect of springrates, damper settings, CG movment, linkarm angles etc.  Totally agree that it is the combination of a lot of factors that makes it drivable  

[RallyeMike]

Ah.. understood. True. Carry on 

[68X426]

MedPhys: check out this site. http://www.protouringmopar.com/forum.php

[MedPhys]

welcome back after your customary two yr. hiatus! 

look up Mr. Angry's two chargers = Mr. Angry and Angryier...
I think Autodynamics and a couple guys in the Netherlands have what could be considered Pro touring...
And you did do a search right?.. 
How the kid and the job?..
                                               

ha, the baby is great!  She is almost three now and has as much attitude as the cars in this thread.  "I don't want to."  "Don't tell me no!"  That sort of thing.  Good thing she is cute   The job isgood as well.  Finally out of grad school and been in the field for almost 4 yrs.  I chose the right path.  yay.

Let me define competitive.  I used the term loosely to try and weed out the advice that would get my car lowered with big wheels, but no suspension upgrades, etc.  Show and no go.  I'm not looking at SCCA comp, but I want to know if folks are able to keep up with modern cars at a track day.  Corvette Z06 owners are quite surprised when they get beat by a miata.  Imagine my surprise when an old muscle car dove into a corner faster that I was, and in a car that was probably 1500 lbs heavier.

Does everyone feel the XV stuff is the best, or is it just because it was once out of reach for the avg joe and now it is more affordable?  What about the RMS stuff?  Not as custom, less fab, appears to use very quality parts.  Those are the main two that I have read about, and not seen any complaints.  I like bang for the buck.  Hence the 300 whp miata, and not a lotus. 

If I am told that I will do all of this and my car will still be slow around a track compared to more modern cars vette, sti, evo, porsche, etc.  I would be more inclined to keep the charger closer to stock with modest suspension upgrades (not changing entire suspension geometry and components), and keep a dedicated track car.  I'd rather be seen in the charger any day over the miata.  If I can combine two hobbies into a single car, then I see it as a win win.  Thanks for all of the replies

[MedPhys]

adjusted my subscribe settings so I receive email notification. This is to subscribe to my own thread

[suntech]

We are on the same page regarding how we describe the terms used 
I choosed the XV because of the weight, and it seemed to be a step up towards the " no compromize" way i want to go. BTW i bought it  while it was 7500 plus brakes
The RMS piece is also very nice i think, and like you say, i think this is the 2 that are the best.
What powerplant are you planning?

[MedPhys]

We are on the same page regarding how we describe the terms used 
I choosed the XV because of the weight, and it seemed to be a step up towards the " no compromize" way i want to go. BTW i bought it  while it was 7500 plus brakes
The RMS piece is also very nice i think, and like you say, i think this is the 2 that are the best.
What powerplant are you planning?

I'm running a built 440 with worked cast iron heads.  The car has been sitting for a long while.  The engine will be pulled and gone through so that there are no surprises.  I'm not sure what I want to do for power moving forward.  Keep what I have.  I really enjoy the classic lope in the idle.  However, technology has come a long way.  It would be nice to have a modern fuel injected power plant that isn't effected by weather changes becuase the computer controls the fuel based on temp, pressure, and engine load.  I haven't looked into a suitable modern power plant.  Going with an aluminum block and aluminum heads would shave a ton of weight and get the weight distribution closer to a 50/50 split.

How difficult was the XV installation.  I've heard it takes a lot of welding.  (skills I don't have)  RMS is all bolt in.  (skills I have)  Looking over systems from both companies.  My opinion is that the XV is superior, however the cost of parts plus installation is significantly more.  The RMS system appears to be the best of the "off the shelf" products.  I'm unaware of any head to head track comparison n two very similar vehicles.

[68pplcharger]

MedPhys: check out this site. http://www.protouringmopar.com/forum.php

Cool site thanks

[HPP]

So we've established there is no rules set to adhere to, which will leave it pretty wide open. The next object to consider is cost.

IMO, the stock geometry is not too bad. It isn't pefect, but it is years ahead of the competition of the era. As such, you can significantly improve the car with careful selection of springs, shocks, t-bars and s-bars and do this for under a couple grand.  This would be the equivilent of the XV level 1 system or the Hotchkis TVS set ups, although both of those take slightly different appraoches to their results. XV seems to take the approach up stepped up wheel rates and shock control. Hotchkis uses geometry correction and shock rates. You could actually mix and match these two and come up with a pretty decent combo. Mix and match

Next step up cost wise is the Alterkation, Blue Zombie or CAP tubular set ups. AlterK  is the originator of this design and has the most units out in the field.  Big advantage to these systems is they are lighter weight than the stock stuff, around 50-60# less, and use coil over spring set ups. Since they are a clean sheet design, they tend to have better geometry set up and the adjustability and ease of spring changes and ride height that come with coil overs is well established. Expect to spend around $7k for these systems. They are based on mustang 2 parts, so replacements are easy to find and options abound.

XV level 2 is probably the most sophisticated and expensive of the bunch. Fabbed of aluminum tube and based off of Corvette parts, they also are a coil over system with all its advantages and pitfalls. I think the going price on these is around $10k.

It goes without saying that bracing the subframes andunibody structure  to take advantage of these systems is foundational work that is required to get the most out of any direction you choose. Since you have experience with road course work, no discussion on tires is required, but brakes will be a point to consider. Pushing 3800# into a corner repeatedly requires as much brake as you can stuff in to the wheel size you chose. Don't scrimp here and make sure they are fed large amounts of fresh air.

[MedPhys]

So we've established there is no rules set to adhere to, which will leave it pretty wide open. The next object to consider is cost.

IMO, the stock geometry is not too bad. It isn't pefect, but it is years ahead of the competition of the era. As such, you can significantly improve the car with careful selection of springs, shocks, t-bars and s-bars and do this for under a couple grand.  This would be the equivilent of the XV level 1 system or the Hotchkis TVS set ups, although both of those take slightly different appraoches to their results. XV seems to take the approach up stepped up wheel rates and shock control. Hotchkis uses geometry correction and shock rates. You could actually mix and match these two and come up with a pretty decent combo. Mix and match

Next step up cost wise is the Alterkation, Blue Zombie or CAP tubular set ups. AlterK  is the originator of this design and has the most units out in the field.  Big advantage to these systems is they are lighter weight than the stock stuff, around 50-60# less, and use coil over spring set ups. Since they are a clean sheet design, they tend to have better geometry set up and the adjustability and ease of spring changes and ride height that come with coil overs is well established. Expect to spend around $7k for these systems. They are based on mustang 2 parts, so replacements are easy to find and options abound.

XV level 2 is probably the most sophisticated and expensive of the bunch. Fabbed of aluminum tube and based off of Corvette parts, they also are a coil over system with all its advantages and pitfalls. I think the going price on these is around $10k.

It goes without saying that bracing the subframes andunibody structure  to take advantage of these systems is foundational work that is required to get the most out of any direction you choose. Since you have experience with road course work, no discussion on tires is required, but brakes will be a point to consider. Pushing 3800# into a corner repeatedly requires as much brake as you can stuff in to the wheel size you chose. Don't scrimp here and make sure they are fed large amounts of fresh air.

Great info.  I was unaware of Blue Zombie and CAP, I'll have to look into those two.  FYI XV level 2 is on sale right now.  It will be a while before I buy.  I want my game plan to be solid and realistic.  The nice thing about my miat is that it is cheap.  Hindsight has shown me a few things.  I want to apply this knowledge to the charger project.  I will also look into the stock geometry upgrades.  There is info floating around that someone has a pretty succesful setup with a stock geometry setup.  I do like the underdog approach.  I think that is another reason tht steers me away from XV.  That's another debate I guess.
I would go with 14" and 13" rotor setup.  This appears to call for a 18-19" wheel.  I will fit the wheels to the brakes, not the other way around.  I like the idea of the coilovers for ride height adjustment.  Chassis stiffening is a must.  Even my little miata has frame rail stiffening, roll bar,door bars, shock tower brace, etc.

At the end of the day, I think I am looking for a budget XV level 2 system, but not one that I have to piece together myself.

[Brock Samson]

As regards the Motor - Kenny Wayne Sheppard KWS as he's known around here -- has a new car, a mid '6os B-bod with a modern HEMI 6.1 with all the modern EFI and Cats and such...
                http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298256
'n Surely the Oly. Charger though a full on race Car,.. Has some lessons that may be useful.
                 http://www.olympia-charger.com/

I feel the "Showpuddle" comment was meant as a Dig. at some of the trailered cars known around here...   
I got it... 

 

[MedPhys]

Anyone have any info or links to a Hotchkis TVS equipped charger.  I visited the website, and I'll be honest.  For $3k, the parts look like a bag of ass.  Whatever works I guess.  I think I liek the idea of a system that has researched the springs and shocks with the setups.  However, this can be misleading.  Remove 500 lbs of weight from your car, and all of a sudden the shocks and springs may not be the matched to the setup anymore.

I use Bernie Stewart at stewart development in High Point, NC for revalving my bilsteins to custom springs, sway bars, ride height, etc.  I bet I could have him do the same for a hotchkis setup. 

One this is certain:  A lot of research is needed before diving in.  The total cost of the project is all over the place. AND  I'm not even sure that the performance vs cost is lienear.  i.e. lowest cost yields lowest performanc and highest cost yields highest performance.

I feel a headache coming on......

[suntech]

Don´t get a headache here buddy, this is supposed to be fun!!! 

Honestly i believe that it is doable to get a charger to handle pretty damn good, using the right parts and setup !

[Mike DC]

                              
You can make almost anything handle tolerably well if you hack up enough parts and replace it with enough aftermarket parts.  I think it becomes a question of how much of the original car you want to retain in the process.  

By the time you've got a Charger that handles like a modern Corvette, it's probably gonna have a whole pile of modern Corvette components in it.  





If you're really ONLY after the looks of the old car and nothing else, then IMHO you might as well do one of these coversions we're seeing lately.  Get a modern 2006-2010 Charger undercarriage reskinned with a vintage Charger's outer body.  It's a lot fewer steps than trying to do it one piece at a time with a Pro Touring project.  

For my money it's no fun once the car is taken that far from its roots though.  Maybe understanable for a daily driver but not for a weekend cruiser. 

[suntech]

These conversions is nothing for me. It might sound kinda stupid to some, since you know that i am pretty much as far as you can get from a purist, but imo it kinda looses it´s soul, and to me it is not a 68 Charger anymore.......it is a 08 or whatever that is made to LOOK like a 68 Charger.
However i do like the aftermarket suspentions that are available, and whatever a creative mind can come up with on modifications, as long as it´s "tasteful" !

How much Corvette parts that is needed to make it handle like a Corvette?? Hmmmmm don´t know, but i will limit my corvette parts to LCA. Uprights will be custom billet ( ok........made for the C5), to lower the XV setup 1 inch, and still have correct UCA / LCA angles.

[thedodgeboys]

It's pretty much all been said already except service after the sale ( or during if your working with xv) is it in stock for example. A lot of xv's stuff is always on backorder, some of the quality is reduced on the cheaper on sale setups that the are offering I have seen an upper control arm fail with their stuff, the new solid arm is the one you want.
They don't make all the parts in house.

Lots of great info over at http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/

The altercation to my knowledge has had no failures   Bill makes all of his stuff and stands behind it.
www.bigblockdart.com

Bill will work with you as well if you want to buy it in sections as your budget allows so you can build as you go

I think the Xv stiffing stuff is the way to go or you can make your own I don't think anyone else offers a kit fo that
Yet.
That's what I did anyway on my challenger, good luck    

[MedPhys]

I've decided not to go with a modern power plant.  It will loose too much of the character that I like.  I can't help smiling every time I turn the key and fire it up.  This would be completely lost on a modern engine.  I may fuel inject the motor, but we will see.  At the moment I am thinking alter-k-tion, or whatever it's called.  I like the easy adjustability of the suspension.  I'm not completely removing the idea of the hotchkis stuff, but I really don't liek the idea of messing with t-bars to dial in a setting.  However, once it is set up, it is solid.  I'm getting excited.  This uber expensive project is getting less expensive. 

I looked at the weight savings of going to an aluminum block.  150lbs.  Unfortunately for me it is not worth the 5k.  Especially when I already have a .030 over 440 in the car.  Aluminum heads will go on. 

[HPP]

If you look at suspension in the same way as you do the engine, then the performance per dollar value of modified stock set ups is far and above what any aftermarket companies are offering.

Using the stock layout, it is entirely possible to create a car capable of handling to a degree to cover the capability of 98% over the drivers out there. So at that point, is it worth another $3-4k to get the car to the 99% level, or another $5k on top of that to get to the 99.5% level? I guess that depends. If you are a good enough driver and familiar enough with your car to notice the difference half a tank of gas can make, and use it an areas where changes need to be made quickly adn easily, then maybe you would benefit from a coil over set up. If not, then the stock stuff will work just fine. Now is the stock stuff perfect, no. Can it be tweaked to get pretty darn good, yes. And you don't have to buy $3000 worth of stuff from a supplier to get there if you know how to analyse the info and change it to get improvements.

Are AlterK and XV nice, yes. Are they lightweight, do they improve ride, handling, and provide adjustability,  yes. However, based on what I have seen and read on multiple sights that have been applied to multiple cars, the biggest amount of improvement these systems offer does not necessarily come from just the fact that they are lighter and more adjustable so much as they fact that their designers have already done all the research to know what springs rates complement what shock rates that are benefited by what sway bar rates. If you apply the same amount of analysis and research to the stock set up to optimize its rates, you can create the same level of performance. Lets be honest, a tire's contact patch could care less if it is a t-bar, coil spring, or leaf spring that is applying rate. It simply reacts to force, period.  Knowing the formula to optimize these rates combined with understanding the impact of changes to the geometric points within the system and balancing this all against a specific car's weight distribution and layout and how it will be for good or ill allows you to know what mods are beneficial and which are bunk.

Aside from a few drag racers, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of AlterK and XV buyers rarely go back and alter spring rates, shock rates, and ride settings once it is all dialed in. They set it and forget it. IMO,  the biggest advantages to using a coil over system is its ability to quickly change settings. If you aren't competing when your on different tracks under different conditions, is there any practical reason to actually use coil overs? Not that I can see.

[MedPhys]

Good point, and it's starting to push me towards the hotchkis setup.  I would be new to tracking this car,a dn thus the learnign curve would take a while.  I wouldn't be driving the car to the limit fo rsome time, thus negating the need for the high end stuff.  I could go the hotchkis route and decide if I really enjoy tracking this over a miata.  If I dedicde to pull the charger from track duty I would still have a nice street setup without the expense. 

How do the cars with stock geometry tweaked for the track feel on the street?  This was another reason for wanting an easily adjusable suspension; It can happily do duel duty with quick change to springs and shock adjsutment.

[MedPhys]

Just to add a little to the hotchkis setup.  I mentioned stewart development for revalved bilsteins earlier iirc.  Custom valved shocks to the setup would be  agood compliment.  Weigh the car, ride height, sway bar size, torsion bar, etc and get shocks custom valve to your setup.  bernie stewart builds custom penske stuff for the truck series.  Revalving the bilstiens is only $80/shock.

[Mike DC]

     
I wish we had more aluminum block options for Mopar V8s.  The 440 blocks are $5000 a pop and they don't even make a streetable alloy version of the LA-series smallblock.   

[motorcitydak]

If you cannot do any serious fab work, Id suggest that you get the Hotchkis stuff. I dunno about a Charger with their stuff, but check out the E Max Challenger they built. Get one of those tubular crossmembers and a better steering box. Add some big brakes and better wheels/tires then see what you come up with. Also, the new Hemi's are awesome motors. You can buy wiring harnesses and ECM's to get it runnin and im sure there are motor mounts out there too if you cannot fab up your own. That is pretty much the direction I was going to go until I decided on a Corvette C6 front end. They involve quite a bit more work but will be worth it in the end

[MedPhys]

Any big brake kits come recommended?  I want to do the 14"F and 13"R. Basically the biggest that I can get.

[RallyeMike]

Using the stock layout, it is entirely possible to create a car capable of handling to a degree to cover the capability of 98% over the drivers out there. So at that point, is it worth another $3-4k to get the car to the 99% level, or another $5k on top of that to get to the 99.5% level? I guess that depends. If you are a good enough driver and familiar enough with your car to notice the difference half a tank of gas can make, and use it an areas where changes need to be made quickly adn easily, then maybe you would benefit from a coil over set up. If not, then the stock stuff will work just fine.

Well said. I truly believe the expensive aftermarket suspension stuff's most useful purpose is to impress others or make owners happy that they have "the" set up. A high percentage of drivers can achieve what they think they need much more inexpensively with just stock-style upgrades and better brakes. But, we all chart our own course.... that's what's so cool about this hobby.

[MedPhys]

Anyone make a kit cheaper that the wilwood kit for 14" rotors?  I think will be doing hotchkis suspension,chassis bracing, stewart development revalved bilsteins.

[Mike DC]

Well said. I truly believe the expensive aftermarket suspension stuff's most useful purpose is to impress others or make owners happy that they have "the" set up. A high percentage of drivers can achieve what they think they need much more inexpensively with just stock-style upgrades and better brakes. But, we all chart our own course.... that's what's so cool about this hobby.

I'm from this school of thought too.  The aftermarket K's are good stuff but I think they are over the level of most people buying them.  The car owners are usually trying to fix problems that could have been done with less drastic work.  

IMHO the majority of guys complaining about wanting their front end tightened up would be content with some increased caster and a tighter power steering box.    

   

[HPP]

That's why I believe a vast amount of the improvement that is realized from the aftermarket kits is the improvement and matching of spring, sway, and shock rates. To calculate all of this for the stock suspension takes a pretty fair amount of calculations and more than a casual understanding of weight distribution and roll couple percentages.  However, you can get the stock stuff pretty darn close and optimized for the majority of most applications.

IMO, the biggest drawback to the stock t-bar set up is the lack of available rates to really dial things in to the gnats azz level. There are only 3 (4 if you search hard) possible handling t-bars rates that are easily available. Compare that to a coil spring that can be found from 400-1500# sets, and is available in 50 increments, and it is easy to see why a t-bar suspension would loose its edge in a serious competitive environment. However, very few of these cars in their stock form are being used in any serious sanctioned competition any more, so the point is probably moot.

[suntech]

I am not saying that you NEED the latest greatest most expansive stuff to get it good ride, but imo there is no doubt that a 3 or 4 link setup, with spiral springs gives a smoother better ride than leaf springs.
Front suspention same thing........... the T bars are hooked up way underneath the car, with the LCA tie in, and is way harder to dial in than a spiral spring setup. With spirals you have the opportunity to go with progressive springs, so you have a smooth ride on everyday gentle driving, and stiff enaugh for better handeling when you start to drive harder, and really compress them. I think maybe the biggest thing to do to increase handeling, is to loose noseweight...
I think the difference in the different suspention systems gets more noticable when you go with lower profile wheels.

[dangina]

if your starting to get into it and don't have alot of money - I'd go with the hotchkis setup, with a big brake kit and maybe a smaller block - stroked to get the weight down. You can do carbon hoods thats great - it will save the weight, you can also:

get aluminum brake master cylinder - claimed shaved 11 lbs.
aluminum big brake kit - shaved 30 lbs front, 20 lbs rear.
any of the aftermarket front independent susension kits - all claim savings of 100-150 lbs.
most guys I know that autoX with mopars that run the bigger brake 4 wheel disc setup run without a brake booster - saved 20 lbs.
go from a big block dodge to a small block (stock - without using aluminum heads or waterpump ect) - saved anywhere from 70-230 lbs depending on which engine you pick
achieving that 50-50 goal shouldn't be too hard to reach there is lots you can do to save weight...

I know from experience from friends that have bought the RMS alterk setup - that when they say bolt in, they mean it - talk about simple with no pain and if you can't weld - then this setup should be for you. I've heard bad things about the CAP setup on moparts, haven't heard anything on the magnumforce yet...

[MedPhys]

It's funny.....I put this car together 14 years ago while I was in high school.  My mother worked for a racing engine shop.  The engine builder tried like hell to get me to build a 400.  Oh no, I had to have a 440.  Imagine that,  a teenager that thinks he has it all figured out.    This isn't the first time I wished I had gone with a 400.  It would have saved some weight,  easily stroked, etc, etc.  I thnk there may be 20k on the motor that is in the car.  I'd hate to start over with a new build, but time will tell.

[NYCMille]

Tom Q is dead on when he says: "If you want a real competition car this is the wrong place and a charger is wayyyyy too big."

I've run my pro-touring Charger for 6 years on racetracks all over the country and while it does handle and stop well, it's simply too big and heavy to be competitive. Now, with that being said you can surprise some people higher dollar machines if you're a good driver. I've also found that you can do quite a bit with a good torsion bar set-up, good shocks, sway-bars and some chassis stiffening mods. The XV set up is nice but uber expensive and you'll see that NOBODY puts up any numbers in regards to what type of handling you're actually going to get for your money.

My - update the car with a few modern amenities like brakes, OD transmission and decent suspension and be done with it. Remember, these are 4000 lbs and 18 feet long... dimensions that are not conducive to road course work.

[bill440rt]

I simply couldn't afford the aftermarket big-buck suspension kits, so I upgraded stock:

Poly bushings, KYB shocks, bigger C-body tie rod sleeves (aluminum) and ends, aluminum strut rods, Hotchkis sway bars, heavy duty rear springs, Keisler auto OD, Steer-n-Gear Stage 2 PS box, and finally the Wilwood big 4-disc system coupled with a Hydroboost unit. Lots of aluminum on the engine too, helped with weight savings. And frame connectors.

There is a very noticeable difference in driving & handling, like night & day. Still spent a small fortune, though.

[Mike DC]

I've run my pro-touring Charger for 6 years on racetracks all over the country and while it does handle and stop well, it's simply too big and heavy to be competitive. Now, with that being said you can surprise some people higher dollar machines if you're a good driver. I've also found that you can do quite a bit with a good torsion bar set-up, good shocks, sway-bars and some chassis stiffening mods. The XV set up is nice but uber expensive and you'll see that NOBODY puts up any numbers in regards to what type of handling you're actually going to get for your money.

I totally agree with most of your comments here.  In the big picture the Charger is a pretty well designed production car that's just 20% too big for what we're trying to do with it.    

But to point out one thing, IMHO the XV Motorsports stuff is probably not going to be very suited to measuring the gains.  It seems designed to affect the "feel" of the car at least as much as the lap times or skidpad ratings.  Particularly their bigger deal with the aluminum K-frame and Vette front control arms & spindles, etc.  Another setup that produces comparable track numbers might still be far below what the XV stuff could offer in real world street conditions.  

[Tom Q]

Hey you guys...the B7 Charger in the pic is wearing 16x8 wheels with 255-50-ZR16 tires...do not let looks deceive you. FYI a 16x8 wheel with a 255-50-16 tire is very ideal in size fit and performance.

If you are insulted by the show poodle comment I cannot help you as that's the way it is...

I learned the 4 most important items to have on your handling car are:
16 inch wheels with sticky tires
Real seats & seat belts
Adjustable shocks
Brakes that don't fade away
Everything after that improves on the basics.

Even the stock suspension set up was limited by the tire and shock choice and the overall handling [think lap times] was severely handicapped by not being held firmly in the seat by a 5 pt seat belt.

Let me show you where the money goes

Welded K frame and boxed steering mount                          250
Tubular UCA urethane bushing   RMS Chassis Components     250
Tubular adj strut rods w/rod ends RMS Chassis Components  199
Boxed lca with rubber pin bushing                      50
Shocks QA1 adjustable...   RMS            580
Springs 160 lbs/in  ESPO               260
Urethane Spring bushings     ESPO            40
Torsion Bars 1.0    Mopar               250
Sway Bars 1-1/8 front   ¾ rear   Firm Feel      600
adj front leaf spring hanger 2 position [lowers car] FF   100
11/16 Seamless Tie Rod sleeves  Firm Feel          175
16:1 level 3     FF      500
Brake upgrade:     
wilwood dynalyte calipers  w/12 inch stock rotors, spindles   625
dr diff rear disc kit      300
Bracing across pkge tray for seat belts and x braces reinforced
Corbeau seats and 5 pt belts            1000
Synthetic lubricants
Driveshaft      Denny's            450
MSD ignition                     200
16x8 Alum wheels                    1000
255-50ZR16          500
good tach   SW                  275
Seat belts                     250

[NYCMille]

I can't wait to hear about your first impressions of this thing on the track Tom. 

[1970Moparmann]

I simply couldn't afford the aftermarket big-buck suspension kits, so I upgraded stock:

Poly bushings, KYB shocks, bigger C-body tie rod sleeves (aluminum) and ends, aluminum strut rods, Hotchkis sway bars, heavy duty rear springs, Keisler auto OD, Steer-n-Gear Stage 2 PS box, and finally the Wilwood big 4-disc system coupled with a Hydroboost unit. Lots of aluminum on the engine too, helped with weight savings. And frame connectors.

There is a very noticeable difference in driving & handling, like night & day. Still spent a small fortune, though.

I pretty much did the same!   The drives incredible for a big boat.  I wanted my car to be able to go on a track if need be, and I plan on doing it.  Not talking about racing or such, just seeing how it performs and having some good 'ol fashion fun.   If you want to make the car more competitive for racing, you need to reduce the weight A LOT.  Strip away....

[dangina]

Aside from a few drag racers, I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of AlterK and XV buyers rarely go back and alter spring rates, shock rates, and ride settings once it is all dialed in. They set it and forget it. IMO,  the biggest advantages to using a coil over system is its ability to quickly change settings. If you aren't competing when your on different tracks under different conditions, is there any practical reason to actually use coil overs? Not that I can see.

This. The majority of guys are never gonna use the potential these systems offer - most guys would be better off upgrading the brakes, shocks, springs, torsion bars, sway bars and UCA's and a better steering box and putting the rest of their money into something else like engine upgrades ect..