My take on survivor cars....

[rarefish]

Lately there has been a lot of discussion on the subject of "survivor" cars. Mostly due to the ones that we see showing up from time to time advertised as being a survivor. Opinions out there vary on what is consider to be a true survivor car.
 David Burroughs of Bloomington Gold has tried to set the standard of what survivor car should be. Some people do not agree with his approach, but he brings up a lot of good points about the importance not restoring a untouched car.
  About 4 years ago I bought my 68 Charger. It is very original with only 36,000 miles. The factory interior is nearly perfect. The body has about 4-5 door dings on each side and there are a few scratches. The passenger fender was damage way back in the early 70s and was repaired and repainted then. The trunk is untouched. It still has the factory red line spare, a nearly perfect trunk mat and the bumper jack which has never been used.
 The engine compartment was about 95% original. The only thing that was not factory original was the plugs and wires. Air filter element. The radiator cap. The voltage reg. The upper radiator hose and the battery. Everything else was untouched. All in all original, but not very pretty.
  My original plan after buying the car was to start pulling parts off, clean them. Then repaint them, because I thought that the engine compartment was not show worthy. I held off doing the work due to a lack of time then and today I'm so glad that I did as now I realized how unique the car was.
  The first year I owned it, I took the car to Carlisle and displayed it in Survivor Tent. In the past, I never really looked at any of the cars in the survivor displays until I was showing one there. The one thing that I found out after carefully study each car was that nearly all of them have had some paint work done on them.  Untouched original interiors seem to be fairly common. More than half seem to have had some detail work done to the engine compartments.
   I now spend a lot more time checking out the survivor displays at shows now that own one. The challenge for me now is looking for that nearly 100% untouched car, which does not seem to exist. I appreciate original unrestored cars a lot more than I use to because when you think about it, you realize that they are the real rare cars today.  
  I my opinion when it comes to survivors, being very original, but showing some age is more important than being very clean, if that clean has come from detailing work.

[elacruze]

  I my opinion when it comes to survivors, being very original, but showing some age is more important than being very clean, if that clean has come from detailing work.

I saw a RoadRunner at the Garlits show this weekend that had rust in the fender corners by the core support. The rust had been contained and touched up with paint, and I appreciated the rust; I'd have been less impressed otherwise.

[PocketThunder]

Is it still a survivor if a deer goes thru the grille?..??   

[moparstuart]

Is it still a survivor if a deer goes thru the grille?..??   

it survived the deer hit   

[nvrbdn]

did the deer have all its original parts? you know i guess it shows how strong these old cars were. what would it look like on a new car? plus with the newer car slope in the front, the deer want to go over the hood.

[PatrickPeeters]

Roadkill.....there goes the weekend on the couch.....

[tan top]

Is it still a survivor if a deer goes thru the grille?..??   

  good example  , just suppose  that happened two weeks  or 5 years after it was driven out the show room    , still a survivor in my book 

[Back N Black]

The only problem i have with a survivor car is the reliability. 40 year old parts can break at anytime, i would not feel secure on a long trip.

[rarefish]

The only problem i have with a survivor car is the reliability. 40 year old parts can break at anytime, i would not feel secure on a long trip.

You are right about that. So far I have driven the Charger to Carlisle two times for the survivor display. That is about 600 miles around trip each time. I kind of figure the car is a ticking time bomb. I'm running on 40 plus year old fuel pump, alternator, coil,  water pump, starter, distributor,  master cylinder, fuel vapor separator, radiator. brake shoes.  Service parts were not meant to last that long.
   The only changes that I have made so far was to flush the brake fluid and rebuild the wheel cylinders. Rebuild the carb. Replace the hoses and belts. Replace the plugs, wires and cap.  Flushed the coolant and changed the trany fluid and filter.
   I have had people tell me I'm nuts to drive it, just because they don't think I should any more miles on the clock, but since I don't have a trailer there is not much choice.
  I did though carry a stack of spare parts just in case.

[SFRT]

IMAO a 'real' survivor car is running totally untouched, never repainted and any replacement parts should only have been dealership installed original manufacture under warranty.

[bull]

Typical maintenance should fall outside the survivor definition IMO. Belts, hoses, filters, plugs, tires, wires, etc., had better have been changed sometime during the past 40 years or the car hasn't been very well maintained. Paint and bodywork, however, tells me the car did not "survive" unscathed and is therefore not a "survivor" per se.

[Richard Cranium]

did the deer have all its original parts?

Has the deer a little doe? Yeah, two bucks.

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk

[Khyron]

whats the difference between beer nuts and deer nuts?

Beer nuts are over a dollar
Deer nuts are under a buck.

*rimshot*

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

IMAO a 'real' survivor car is running totally untouched, never repainted and any replacement parts should only have been dealership installed original manufacture under warranty.

Typical maintenance should fall outside the survivor definition IMO. Belts, hoses, filters, plugs, tires, wires, etc., had better have been changed sometime during the past 40 years or the car hasn't been very well maintained. Paint and bodywork, however, tells me the car did not "survive" unscathed and is therefore not a "survivor" per se.

Agreed on maint. items - either from dealer, or over the counter. However, the rest of the definition about paint and untouched, absolutely!

[chargerjy9]

 I own a 73 charger SE with now 17,000 miles on it. I purchased it July 03 with 2,765 fully documented miles on it. the point is: I drive it. orig wheels and tires are off the car and stored away. replaced with radial T/A's.  all belts and hoses, spark plugs, SP wires, likewise are off and replaced with new stuff. I had to replace the water pump and battery. The steering box and master cylinder have been rebuilt as well as the alternator. I put new shocks on it; modern gas charged. rear leaf springs have been re-arched. Other than those items, the car is as from the factory. I bought it to enjoy, I drive it. It has been on trips as far as 400 miles away from home, it has never failed me (knock on wood). It drives and behaves as if new. The exterior has a few dings and scratches, the paint is,  to my knowledge, factory applied and looks as if it were new.. The Interior is such that it looks as if no one ever sat in it. everything works and works well, the A/C blows cold, It has been recharged with  R12. all gauges, buzzers and lights work.

My take on this survivor business is that if the definition means nothing has ever been touched since factory build, that car could never have been driven as it should be. After 35 to 40 years, parts wear out, even from non use. Do I then not replace that part and not trust driving it?  I want to use my car as it was meant to be. People tell me my car is a survivor, I have seen the survivor tent at Carlisle, some of those cars look way too perfect to have not been touched. I know that my car would fit right in there with the rest of them.

[doctor4766]

Typical maintenance should fall outside the survivor definition IMO. Belts, hoses, filters, plugs, tires, wires, etc., had better have been changed sometime during the past 40 years or the car hasn't been very well maintained. Paint and bodywork, however, tells me the car did not "survive" unscathed and is therefore not a "survivor" per se.

Agreed.
And I would certainly avoid NOT CHANGING BRAKE PADS either just so you could say it's "more original" than the next guy's car.

[charge69]

Some of  these replies make me laugh out loud.  I am old enough to remember when these  cars were NEW and rode in plenty of them , Chargers ('68 orange 383 4spd , '69 b B5 blue R/T 440 auto) included Also a NEW '68 GTS 383 Dart and a number of Roadrunners , including a HEMI RR that was BADAZZ !! Nobody took these cars to the Dealer for normal maintenance. Nobody did that back then. Warrenty work was much more in line with what I saw as it was just too expensive then and anyone with a little mechanical knowledge could do it to ANY car back then. A very few cars with older and monied owners had their maintenance (regularly scheduled) done by the dealer! Of course, I was just a poor Marine just back from Vietnam (summer and Fall of '68 to 1970 in KCMO area) .

To listen to some of the ideas of "survivor" , the car had to have had Dealer maintenance and dealer parts throughout it's life and that is just not practical.  No repaint, original interior , and original drivetrain can be considered a true rarity now for the 40+ year old autos and to expect anything more is just unrealistic. The vast majority have lost their right to call their car a "survivor" anymore , including me as a full restoration is in progress.

These people need to loosen up a bit! Or maybe, just try to find a real R/T  that is their definition of a survivor!

[bull]

The word defines the situation, realistic or not. Yes, time makes it more difficult for a survivor to exist but I don't see how the passing of time requires that the definition be watered down, if that's what you're getting at. That said, I agree that dealer-supplied labor and parts should not be a requirement.

[PocketThunder]

Some of  these replies make me laugh out loud.  I am old enough to remember when these  cars were NEW and rode in plenty of them , Chargers ('68 orange 383 4spd , '69 b B5 blue R/T 440 auto) included Also a NEW '68 GTS 383 Dart and a number of Roadrunners , including a HEMI RR that was BADAZZ !! Nobody took these cars to the Dealer for normal maintenance. Nobody did that back then. Warrenty work was much more in line with what I saw as it was just too expensive then and anyone with a little mechanical knowledge could do it to ANY car back then. A very few cars with older and monied owners had their maintenance (regularly scheduled) done by the dealer! Of course, I was just a poor Marine just back from Vietnam (summer and Fall of '68 to 1970 in KCMO area) .

To listen to some of the ideas of "survivor" , the car had to have had Dealer maintenance and dealer parts throughout it's life and that is just not practical.  No repaint, original interior , and original drivetrain can be considered a true rarity now for the 40+ year old autos and to expect anything more is just unrealistic.

These people need to loosen up a bit! Or maybe, just try to find a real R/T  that is their definition of a survivor!

Kind of like trying to find a 40 year old virgin.. 

[charge69]

Hi Bull,  I ain't sure what you are trying to say either but, if it has original paint (full body) original interior (complete) and original drivetrain (all numbers-matching) then it is what I call a survivor. It better have been worked on in 40+ years or it could be downright dangerous to drive and , if you had the money and the luxury of a dealership maintenance plan, so much the better but few had that. We worked on our own cars and rarely used Chrysler Corp. parts either. All engine accessories were fair game to be changed and that doesn't change the fact one way or the other. Yes, original MOPAR parts would be nicer but not mandatory for me.

Too many use the word "survivor" now and I just have to shake my head and smile. Few people have a true survivor by my definition and I cannot believe there is a completely original car left unless it was stuck in a museum when new and it certainly ain't gonna be driven by me.

That has always been my definition and is today.

[nvrbdn]

well, my first car was a 68 dodge charger. back in 73 as i remember right, these cars were notorius for eating starters and fuel pumps. being lucky to work on cars as a kid with my dad,when i got my own car id go to the junk yard and find a 383 with a starter still in the car,or the fuel pump and just match the push arm to the one i had, and take it home and hook it up. also any other parts we needed would be free game to the junk yard crawler. i guess the part no's mabey would still be correct, i dont know for sure. didnt care about it then. i wanted a stiffer rear end, so i went to the junk yard and the guy there said that these leafs out of a truck would bolt up so i got them and put em in the charger. didnt need air shocks to get her up in the air anymore. now if she is still alive somewhere, i know that car isnt complete factory stock by some peoples rules. hope she is still cruising somewhere. a true survivor is a car that still lives after kids like me got done with them in the 70's. we raced every night almost.cruised everywhere.gas was very cheap and milage didnt matter.we could put 150-200 miles a night on our cars.it was a sweet time to be a teenager

[bull]

Hi Bull,  I ain't sure what you are trying to say either but, if it has original paint (full body) original interior (complete) and original drivetrain (all numbers-matching) then it is what I call a survivor. It better have been worked on in 40+ years or it could be downright dangerous to drive and , if you had the money and the luxury of a dealership maintenance plan, so much the better but few had that. We worked on our own cars and rarely used Chrysler Corp. parts either. All engine accessories were fair game to be changed and that doesn't change the fact one way or the other. Yes, original MOPAR parts would be nicer but not mandatory for me.

Too many use the word "survivor" now and I just have to shake my head and smile. Few people have a true survivor by my definition and I cannot believe there is a completely original car left unless it was stuck in a museum when new and it certainly ain't gonna be driven by me.

That has always been my definition and is today.

I think what happened is I thought you were saying something different and after my initial response I discovered that I actually agreed with you. The post button is like the trigger on a gun sometimes.

[tan top]

The only problem i have with a survivor car is the reliability. 40 year old parts can break at anytime, i would not feel secure on a long trip.

true  ok to look at & drive on & off a trailer ! but thats a bout it 

[charge69]

Just got home from work a few minutes ago and found your post, Bull.  The intertnet can be a hard place to get your point across as YOU see it but , I was pretty sure we agreed on the subject.   Sure wish I had that black-on-black '68 Roadrunner HEMI/4spd that I used to run around in!!  If it still exists, I am fairly sure it is no longer a "survivor" as we beat the H2ll out of it street racing!   Lost touch with it and the owner long ago!