I am heated right now...

[Brock Samson]

Maybe the kids were just speaking the truth & jb666 is the only American family on the block?  

You got that illustration wrong. The Antarctican family should be upside down too and the two Mexican families should be living in the same house.

Boy I missed that one...

Sounds like it was commentary on how cheap their own 'people' are...

It is sad though that they've been taught that 'Americans' are separate from themselves.

Among certain groups, when they say "Americans" theyre not referring to nationality, but rather it's more often used as an alternative to "white".

So yeah, in essence they were saying "let's go there..that's where the white people live and they'll be more generous with the candy". Is that "racist"? Well, do you want to be called a racist if you don't want to take your kids trick or treating in the ghetto?

The "Twilight Zone" morale of this story is that for all the groveling that some white people do about minorities always crying racism about everything, nowadays it's white people who take any perceived slight or gesture, however trivial it may be, by a minority (or even by other white people) as a symbol of reverse racism or prejudice and turn it into a bigger deal than it really is. As my attorney said....sometime you just gotta take a chill pill and let it go.

This is, of course, just an observation on my part, but if some asian kids calling you "american" is the worst form of prejudice you've experienced, then you're in good shape.

I think Natcho
(Poncho whaterver   )nailed it with his observations,.. "Asian's" don't trick or treat & my block is full up with Newly emigrated Chinese, one Black family moved into section eight housing a year or so ago and there are four "White Families" left...
They don't do Xmas either by the way... It's getting to where you can tell, where the White folks are by their Holiday Decorations,..
Jeff, I'm willing to bet they just thought they could get candy at your home, and your trippin'..

[Ponch ®]

Among certain groups, when they say "Americans" theyre not referring to nationality, but rather it's more often used as an alternative to "white".

So yeah, in essence they were saying "let's go there..that's where the white people live and they'll be more generous with the candy". Is that "racist"? Well, do you want to be called a racist if you don't want to take your kids trick or treating in the ghetto?

The "Twilight Zone" morale of this story is that for all the groveling that some white people do about minorities always crying racism about everything, nowadays it's white people who take any perceived slight or gesture, however trivial it may be, by a minority (or even by other white people) as a symbol of reverse racism or prejudice and turn it into a bigger deal than it really is. As my attorney said....sometime you just gotta take a chill pill and let it go.

This is, of course, just an observation on my part, but if some asian kids calling you "american" is the worst form of prejudice you've experienced, then you're in good shape.

i agree to an extent, and what I would want to say will mean nothing in the whole scheme of things as this whole thing could get ugly really quick.

i guess my crux of the issue is that the white people are being labeled Americans and not everyone?  I know it sounds mundane and too sensitive... but I have always championed the "why african-american, hispanic-american.. et al" nonsense... we are all American (to include nacho lol).  Its the divisiveness of the speech that is premise for the separatist mentality that the minorities accuse the majority of having.  If the majority was to promote speech of this nature, it could and would most likely be construed as racist, bigot-ridden, or discriminatory.... BUT when a minority speaks this way it is socially acceptable and we should go drink some alcohol and take a chill pill.

Personally, I can see where you and vain are coming from, but at the same time its bullshit.. and if the minorities do not like to put up with that type of speech, then why should the majority?

I don't think it's socially acceptable nor that the majority should put up with it. But considering some of the stuff that minorities in this country have historically faced (slavery, lynchings, segregation, internment camps, and so on) it seems petty and whiny to complain about incidents like this and imply that they are evidence that there some sort of persecution or threat against the majority (white people, to be more accurate and non-PC) . Not that there aren't real, valid issues, like people that can't get jobs or get into a school due to ridiculous affirmative action policies, but seriously, sometimes you gotta put things in context. Hence my comment that if that's the worst he's seen, he's in good shape.

I'm a minority, and I've been at the receiving end of racism/prejudice on more than one occasion, but for the most part I've let it slide because I know even I don't have it that bad and there are people who have really been screwed.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

If the majority was to promote speech of this nature, it could and would most likely be construed as racist, bigot-ridden, or discriminatory.... BUT when a minority speaks this way it is socially acceptable and we should go drink some alcohol and take a chill pill.

Let's not imbue my words with any meaning that wasn't there originally.  I'm not saying anyone should be "promoting" anything, and I don't think what was said was racist, "bigot-ridden" (whatever that is), or discriminatory, regardless of whether it was said by white or Asian kids because they're kids!  Do you think they have any idea what kinds of things are socially acceptable to the adult world?  I'd guess not.  Again, because they're kids!

Now, that being said, I think the more everybody gets touchy and pissed-off about what they're called, what they're labeled, and how they're stereotyped, the worse the name-calling, labeling, and stereotyping is going to be; it's all retaliatory.  I think you'd need to let it go even if it was a group of 35 year olds calling you or anyone else "American."  Honestly - who cares?

Life's messy.  Just roll with it.

[BrianShaughnessy]

 

    I sit on my porch every year and give out candy to whoever comes up big or small.   I spent like $92 at Sams club this year and have a serving bowl leftover.   Last year I spent more but had more leftover.

    I have fun watching the 15 year olds having shaving cream and egg fights up the street and talking with the parents.    And if some hot mommies come around that's even better.

    Meanwhile I hear stories about people barricading themselves inside with the lights off so they don't have kids come up to the door      

[RD]

If the majority was to promote speech of this nature, it could and would most likely be construed as racist, bigot-ridden, or discriminatory.... BUT when a minority speaks this way it is socially acceptable and we should go drink some alcohol and take a chill pill.

Let's not imbue my words with any meaning that wasn't there originally.  I'm not saying anyone should be "promoting" anything, and I don't think what was said was racist, "bigot-ridden" (whatever that is), or discriminatory, regardless of whether it was said by white or Asian kids because they're kids!

Kids are malicious just as adults, the only difference is that kids learn it from adults.  They too will become adults, and in most cases, carry the same belief structure that was imprinted onto them by their culture, family life, parents, and neighborhood.  You can either promote something directly or indirectly.  If you choose to ignore jb666's argument that he was offended by the statement, then you ARE saying that the children's words were socially acceptable as they require no corrective actions. ( i am not saying corrective actions will take place or should take place by jb666 or any other person mind you).  If you choose to accept jb666's argument then you are admitting that the children should not have said those things and it was not socially acceptable.  There is no shade of gray here.  You either think it was right or wrong.  Saying "who cares?" is just blatant complacency.

Do you think they have any idea what kinds of things are socially acceptable to the adult world?  I'd guess not.  Again, because they're kids!

kids or not.. everyone knows right from wrong, especially at 10/11 years of age.  To state that because they are kids we should not make them accountable for what they say (at that age) is an enabling approach.

Now, that being said, I think the more everybody gets touchy and pissed-off about what they're called, what they're labeled, and how they're stereotyped, the worse the name-calling, labeling, and stereotyping is going to be; it's all retaliatory.  I think you'd need to let it go even if it was a group of 35 year olds calling you or anyone else "American."  Honestly - who cares?

Life's messy.  Just roll with it.

but what you are saying is that since its based upon your opinion it should be left alone and ignored, that is of course... if everyone had the same opinion as you do, which we don't.  you define this as a petty contrivance, whereas I see it as a viewpoint that leads to a separatist mentality at its most fundamental root.

its not that he was called "American" it was the context of the label.  And obviously.. he cared.. hence this whole thread.  To state that he should adopt your approach to this would mean we should just drop our belief structures and adopt yours.  Not a good idea as much as if I told everyone to stop and believe what I believe.

The principle by which his argument has been laid down is that he was offended by the words that the kids stated.  This, in and of itself, is grounds for angst.  To state that he should not have angst is dismissing him and his rights.  

Again... I state more "specifically this time"; If a group of 10/11 year old white kids said that this is the African-Americans house, go by here... I am sure there would have been a whole different set of arguments going on here.

I can see both sides to this argument.  Yours has merit.  You may see both sides also, I just do not believe you care about any other side other than the one your opinion is residing with.  I say that because you so specifically and steadfastly told him to get over it and to stop caring.  This tells me you have not sincerely taken into consideration how he feels about this.. only how you believe "he should feel".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

clear something up for all of us jb666, did the kids stop and get candy or not?

[jb666]

No, they didn't stop. I was at the front door, they were walking up to my gate when one of them hit the other and said "This is where Americans live, go by here!" and they went across the street and on their way.

There was no indication that they couldn't get candy at the door, so trick or treaters were all welcome to come up. 


Trust me, I'm over it... It just baffles me at how ignorance like this is becoming more and more frequent

[Vainglory, Esq.]

If the majority was to promote speech of this nature, it could and would most likely be construed as racist, bigot-ridden, or discriminatory.... BUT when a minority speaks this way it is socially acceptable and we should go drink some alcohol and take a chill pill.

Let's not imbue my words with any meaning that wasn't there originally.  I'm not saying anyone should be "promoting" anything, and I don't think what was said was racist, "bigot-ridden" (whatever that is), or discriminatory, regardless of whether it was said by white or Asian kids because they're kids!

Kids are malicious just as adults, the only difference is that kids learn it from adults.  They too will become adults, and in most cases, carry the same belief structure that was imprinted onto them by their culture, family life, parents, and neighborhood.  You can either promote something directly or indirectly.  If you choose to ignore jb666's argument that he was offended by the statement, then you ARE saying that the children's words were socially acceptable as they require no corrective actions. ( i am not saying corrective actions will take place or should take place by jb666 or any other person mind you).  If you choose to accept jb666's argument then you are admitting that the children should not have said those things and it was not socially acceptable.  There is no shade of gray here.  You either think it was right or wrong.  Saying "who cares?" is just blatant complacency.

Do you think they have any idea what kinds of things are socially acceptable to the adult world?  I'd guess not.  Again, because they're kids!

kids or not.. everyone knows right from wrong, especially at 10/11 years of age.  To state that because they are kids we should not make them accountable for what they say (at that age) is an enabling approach.

Now, that being said, I think the more everybody gets touchy and pissed-off about what they're called, what they're labeled, and how they're stereotyped, the worse the name-calling, labeling, and stereotyping is going to be; it's all retaliatory.  I think you'd need to let it go even if it was a group of 35 year olds calling you or anyone else "American."  Honestly - who cares?

Life's messy.  Just roll with it.

but what you are saying is that since its based upon your opinion it should be left alone and ignored, that is of course... if everyone had the same opinion as you do, which we don't.  you define this as a petty contrivance, whereas I see it as a viewpoint that leads to a separatist mentality at its most fundamental root.

its not that he was called "American" it was the context of the label.  And obviously.. he cared.. hence this whole thread.  To state that he should adopt your approach to this would mean we should just drop our belief structures and adopt yours.  Not a good idea as much as if I told everyone to stop and believe what I believe.

The principle by which his argument has been laid down is that he was offended by the words that the kids stated.  This, in and of itself, is grounds for angst.  To state that he should not have angst is dismissing him and his rights.  

Again... I state more "specifically this time"; If a group of 10/11 year old white kids said that this is the African-Americans house, go by here... I am sure there would have been a whole different set of arguments going on here.

I can see both sides to this argument.  Yours has merit.  You may see both sides also, I just do not believe you care about any other side other than the one your opinion is residing with.  I say that because you so specifically and steadfastly told him to get over it and to stop caring.  This tells me you have not sincerely taken into consideration how he feels about this.. only how you believe "he should feel".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

clear something up for all of us jb666, did the kids stop and get candy or not?

Does anyone else see the irony of having a long-ass argument over whether to take a chill pill?  Don't worry.  It's not lost on me.

This is way too long, I'm not reading it, I don't care that much, and I'm out.  Have a nice night.

[MoparManJim]

If the majority was to promote speech of this nature, it could and would most likely be construed as racist, bigot-ridden, or discriminatory.... BUT when a minority speaks this way it is socially acceptable and we should go drink some alcohol and take a chill pill.

Let's not imbue my words with any meaning that wasn't there originally.  I'm not saying anyone should be "promoting" anything, and I don't think what was said was racist, "bigot-ridden" (whatever that is), or discriminatory, regardless of whether it was said by white or Asian kids because they're kids!

Kids are malicious just as adults, the only difference is that kids learn it from adults.  They too will become adults, and in most cases, carry the same belief structure that was imprinted onto them by their culture, family life, parents, and neighborhood.  You can either promote something directly or indirectly.  If you choose to ignore jb666's argument that he was offended by the statement, then you ARE saying that the children's words were socially acceptable as they require no corrective actions. ( i am not saying corrective actions will take place or should take place by jb666 or any other person mind you).  If you choose to accept jb666's argument then you are admitting that the children should not have said those things and it was not socially acceptable.  There is no shade of gray here.  You either think it was right or wrong.  Saying "who cares?" is just blatant complacency.

Do you think they have any idea what kinds of things are socially acceptable to the adult world?  I'd guess not.  Again, because they're kids!

kids or not.. everyone knows right from wrong, especially at 10/11 years of age.  To state that because they are kids we should not make them accountable for what they say (at that age) is an enabling approach.

Now, that being said, I think the more everybody gets touchy and pissed-off about what they're called, what they're labeled, and how they're stereotyped, the worse the name-calling, labeling, and stereotyping is going to be; it's all retaliatory.  I think you'd need to let it go even if it was a group of 35 year olds calling you or anyone else "American."  Honestly - who cares?

Life's messy.  Just roll with it.

but what you are saying is that since its based upon your opinion it should be left alone and ignored, that is of course... if everyone had the same opinion as you do, which we don't.  you define this as a petty contrivance, whereas I see it as a viewpoint that leads to a separatist mentality at its most fundamental root.

its not that he was called "American" it was the context of the label.  And obviously.. he cared.. hence this whole thread.  To state that he should adopt your approach to this would mean we should just drop our belief structures and adopt yours.  Not a good idea as much as if I told everyone to stop and believe what I believe.

The principle by which his argument has been laid down is that he was offended by the words that the kids stated.  This, in and of itself, is grounds for angst.  To state that he should not have angst is dismissing him and his rights.  

Again... I state more "specifically this time"; If a group of 10/11 year old white kids said that this is the African-Americans house, go by here... I am sure there would have been a whole different set of arguments going on here.

I can see both sides to this argument.  Yours has merit.  You may see both sides also, I just do not believe you care about any other side other than the one your opinion is residing with.  I say that because you so specifically and steadfastly told him to get over it and to stop caring.  This tells me you have not sincerely taken into consideration how he feels about this.. only how you believe "he should feel".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

clear something up for all of us jb666, did the kids stop and get candy or not?

Does anyone else see the irony of having a long-ass argument over whether to take a chill pill?  Don't worry.  It's not lost on me.

This is way too long, I'm not reading it, I don't care that much, and I'm out.  Have a nice night.

If its to long for you then you must be lazy to read stuff on here and are only looking for threads with short lines.    

Maybe what someone should do is just use the letter from each word to post for now on... that way things might not be so long for lazy'z to read    

It is sometimes that long replys like above IS where you might find your answers at, but if people decide NOT to read them, then it's not other people fault that people (as in the general folks) doesn't know what was said or if the answer was in there or not.  As for me I choose to read even the long replys as you be surprise what info you can learn and find out about in those ones. 

[nvrbdn]

  happy b-day jb666 no tricks have one for me 

[last426]

If its to long for you then you must be lazy to read stuff on here and are only looking for threads with short lines.    

Maybe what someone should do is just use the letter from each word to post for now on... that way things might not be so long for lazy'z to read    

It is sometimes that long replys like above IS where you might find your answers at, but if people decide NOT to read them, then it's not other people fault that people (as in the general folks) doesn't know what was said or if the answer was in there or not.  As for me I choose to read even the long replys as you be surprise what info you can learn and find out about in those ones. 

But it's obvious that some replies aren't worth reading.  Besides, I still don't understand what the kids meant.   Kim

[RD]

If its to long for you then you must be lazy to read stuff on here and are only looking for threads with short lines.   

Maybe what someone should do is just use the letter from each word to post for now on... that way things might not be so long for lazy'z to read   

It is sometimes that long replys like above IS where you might find your answers at, but if people decide NOT to read them, then it's not other people fault that people (as in the general folks) doesn't know what was said or if the answer was in there or not.  As for me I choose to read even the long replys as you be surprise what info you can learn and find out about in those ones. 

But it's obvious that some replies aren't worth reading.  Besides, I still don't understand what the kids meant.   Kim

here kim:

No, they didn't stop. I was at the front door, they were walking up to my gate when one of them hit the other and said "This is where Americans live, go by here!" and they went across the street and on their way.

There was no indication that they couldn't get candy at the door, so trick or treaters were all welcome to come up. 


Trust me, I'm over it... It just baffles me at how ignorance like this is becoming more and more frequent

[last426]

I think my confusion comes from the alleged sentence structure.  The phrase "go by here" is a fairly complicated concept.  I could understand had they said "don't go here" or "skip here."  I mean, when I say "go by here" I mean to stop there, not to pass by there. It is just a level of construction that I am surprised kids would use.  Asian cultures have derogatory terms for white Americans but they did not use those either.  Oh well, no more thinking about it.  Kim

here kim:

No, they didn't stop. I was at the front door, they were walking up to my gate when one of them hit the other and said "This is where Americans live, go by here!" and they went across the street and on their way.

There was no indication that they couldn't get candy at the door, so trick or treaters were all welcome to come up. 


Trust me, I'm over it... It just baffles me at how ignorance like this is becoming more and more frequent

[RD]

I think my confusion comes from the alleged sentence structure.  The phrase "go by here" is a fairly complicated concept.  I could understand had they said "don't go here" or "skip here."  I mean, when I say "go by here" I mean to stop there, not to pass by there. It is just a level of construction that I am surprised kids would use.  Asian cultures have derogatory terms for white Americans but they did not use those either.  Oh well, no more thinking about it.  Kim

here kim:

No, they didn't stop. I was at the front door, they were walking up to my gate when one of them hit the other and said "This is where Americans live, go by here!" and they went across the street and on their way.

There was no indication that they couldn't get candy at the door, so trick or treaters were all welcome to come up. 


Trust me, I'm over it... It just baffles me at how ignorance like this is becoming more and more frequent

Jeff had me thinking about it too.. so i just assumed that because he was mad at them they were telling others to bypass his house.  i then asked Jeff for a clarification and that is what I quoted.

[Shakey]

If the majority was to promote speech of this nature, it could and would most likely be construed as racist, bigot-ridden, or discriminatory.... BUT when a minority speaks this way it is socially acceptable and we should go drink some alcohol and take a chill pill.

Let's not imbue my words with any meaning that wasn't there originally.  I'm not saying anyone should be "promoting" anything, and I don't think what was said was racist, "bigot-ridden" (whatever that is), or discriminatory, regardless of whether it was said by white or Asian kids because they're kids!

Kids are malicious just as adults, the only difference is that kids learn it from adults.  They too will become adults, and in most cases, carry the same belief structure that was imprinted onto them by their culture, family life, parents, and neighborhood.  You can either promote something directly or indirectly.  If you choose to ignore jb666's argument that he was offended by the statement, then you ARE saying that the children's words were socially acceptable as they require no corrective actions. ( i am not saying corrective actions will take place or should take place by jb666 or any other person mind you).  If you choose to accept jb666's argument then you are admitting that the children should not have said those things and it was not socially acceptable.  There is no shade of gray here.  You either think it was right or wrong.  Saying "who cares?" is just blatant complacency.

Do you think they have any idea what kinds of things are socially acceptable to the adult world?  I'd guess not.  Again, because they're kids!

kids or not.. everyone knows right from wrong, especially at 10/11 years of age.  To state that because they are kids we should not make them accountable for what they say (at that age) is an enabling approach.

Now, that being said, I think the more everybody gets touchy and pissed-off about what they're called, what they're labeled, and how they're stereotyped, the worse the name-calling, labeling, and stereotyping is going to be; it's all retaliatory.  I think you'd need to let it go even if it was a group of 35 year olds calling you or anyone else "American."  Honestly - who cares?

Life's messy.  Just roll with it.

but what you are saying is that since its based upon your opinion it should be left alone and ignored, that is of course... if everyone had the same opinion as you do, which we don't.  you define this as a petty contrivance, whereas I see it as a viewpoint that leads to a separatist mentality at its most fundamental root.

its not that he was called "American" it was the context of the label.  And obviously.. he cared.. hence this whole thread.  To state that he should adopt your approach to this would mean we should just drop our belief structures and adopt yours.  Not a good idea as much as if I told everyone to stop and believe what I believe.

The principle by which his argument has been laid down is that he was offended by the words that the kids stated.  This, in and of itself, is grounds for angst.  To state that he should not have angst is dismissing him and his rights.  

Again... I state more "specifically this time"; If a group of 10/11 year old white kids said that this is the African-Americans house, go by here... I am sure there would have been a whole different set of arguments going on here.

I can see both sides to this argument.  Yours has merit.  You may see both sides also, I just do not believe you care about any other side other than the one your opinion is residing with.  I say that because you so specifically and steadfastly told him to get over it and to stop caring.  This tells me you have not sincerely taken into consideration how he feels about this.. only how you believe "he should feel".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

clear something up for all of us jb666, did the kids stop and get candy or not?

Does anyone else see the irony of having a long-ass argument over whether to take a chill pill?  Don't worry.  It's not lost on me.

This is way too long, I'm not reading it, I don't care that much, and I'm out.  Have a nice night.

If its to long for you then you must be lazy to read stuff on here and are only looking for threads with short lines.    

Maybe what someone should do is just use the letter from each word to post for now on... that way things might not be so long for lazy'z to read    

It is sometimes that long replys like above IS where you might find your answers at, but if people decide NOT to read them, then it's not other people fault that people (as in the general folks) doesn't know what was said or if the answer was in there or not.  As for me I choose to read even the long replys as you be surprise what info you can learn and find out about in those ones.  

i'm usually too lazy to read all of the words in some posts but it makes sense to me!   

[mikepmcs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbtZMOi2AtI&feature=related

[dkn1997]

I took my kids trick or treating in my neighborhood...it's mixed, black/white/spanish.  but mostly white.  I will say that the race had little to do with who had the best candy.  Truth be told, and I don't know how to say this without sounding really bad....but the people who were "born here" tended to have the best candy, didn't matter if they were black/white/red/green/blue whatever.  The houses where they have foreign accents, where I assume they moved to the US and got citizenship later in life, gave out stuff like car travel games lol.  My 6 year old would have said WTF if he knew what WTF meant lol.  I thought it was hilarious but that's just me.  

So maybe the quality of the candy is determined by cultural factors and not race.  

...edit...I just reread what I wrote and it has nothing to do with the original post.  However, it's such a spectacular thread derailment that I'm leaving it.  I may even convert it to all CAPS!

[PocketThunder]

I took my kids trick or treating in my neighborhood...it's mixed, black/white/spanish.  but mostly white.  I will say that the race had little to do with who had the best candy.  Truth be told, and I don't know how to say this without sounding really bad....but the people who were "born here" tended to have the best candy, didn't matter if they were black/white/red/green/blue whatever.  The houses where they have foreign accents, where I assume they moved to the US and got citizenship later in life, gave out stuff like car travel games lol.  My 6 year old would have said WTF if he knew what WTF meant lol.  I thought it was hilarious but that's just me.  

So maybe the quality of the candy is determined by cultural factors and not race.  

...edit...I just reread what I wrote and it has nothing to do with the original post.  However, it's such a spectacular thread derailment that I'm leaving it.  I may even convert it to all CAPS!

I'll join you.  Every year at Christmas time, i mean Hanukkah, our CFO here at work who is from Jerusalem orders in a couple boxes of Baklava, i'm a butt-white kid from Wisconsin so i had no idea what it was but let me tell you, Damn that is some good food!!!

[TK73]

    Meanwhile I hear stories about people barricading themselves inside with the lights off so they don't have kids come up to the door      

Exactly, been doing that for years...

[bull]

I think my confusion comes from the alleged sentence structure.  The phrase "go by here" is a fairly complicated concept.  I could understand had they said "don't go here" or "skip here."  I mean, when I say "go by here" I mean to stop there, not to pass by there. It is just a level of construction that I am surprised kids would use.  Asian cultures have derogatory terms for white Americans but they did not use those either.  Oh well, no more thinking about it.  Kim

But when they said "go by here" and then turned away and went someplace else I think it's pretty obvious what they meant.

[nvrbdn]

I think my confusion comes from the alleged sentence structure.  The phrase "go by here" is a fairly complicated concept.  I could understand had they said "don't go here" or "skip here."  I mean, when I say "go by here" I mean to stop there, not to pass by there. It is just a level of construction that I am surprised kids would use.  Asian cultures have derogatory terms for white Americans but they did not use those either.  Oh well, no more thinking about it.  Kim

But when they said "go by here" and then turned away and went someplace else I think it's pretty obvious what they meant.

ditto bull what else could it be.