Building the 6 pack and 440 block I bought for the Bird clone

[oldcarnut]

Thought I'd just post another motor build with some imput/help from others.
Picked up the motor today I'm planning on building for my Bird clone and would like, if somebody knows about the numbers, could help me out with some info. I want to know what I'm starting with.   I bought the motor with tranny and 6 pac setup for $1500. I'll sell the tranny and use the one from the RR-Are they the same other than Torq converter?
The motor:  The cast numbers were 3698830_440_9 which after a search I see is  73-78.
The pad above the oil pan has 3C203043.  The front pad 1st line J440  X then a Maltese cross
2nd line 1  10  2.  There is a cast number on the passenger side 1-20-72 which didn't make sense if the other number meant 73-78. The crank appears to have the same damper as the original 383 70RR so I guess its a good crank to start with.  Anyway if someone could tell me what I have it would help me when I go to get parts.  Do they make the carb rebuild kits to handle the Ethanol gas now?
The carbs:  choke plate top F-R  (F) D1565 6R3406B,  (M) D1565 6R3043B  (R) D1565  6R3406B
                                                0929 List 4394           1229 List 4391         1259  List 4391-1  
Here's a link to the carb pics.  The motor as I got is below.  I hope the carbs are for automatic trans setup
The intake is an alum Eddy with Chry part 342046  or maybe 3412046 (the 1 is barely legible)
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,53678.msg721830.html#msg721830

[oldcarnut]

4391 (list) 52 (PN) man center Holley carb
4392 (list) 53 (PN) auto center Holley carb
4393 (list) 50 (PN) both front Holley carb
4394 (list) 51 (PN) both rear Holley car
Found those on Moparts.  Do they look right?  If so then someone put them on backwards on the one I got and has a manual center with auto outers    Maybe that's why I heard that he could never get them to run right on the car.  Whats the differences between the manual and auto?  Jetting?  The intake looks like 69-70

[62 Max]

Your motor is from a C-body,1973,steel crank.Carbs are 69 1/2.If you got your numbers right,you have two center 4spd carbs and an end rear.Are you sure the one isn't a 4393?.

Just saw your pictures.Front carb has the wrong bowl.The outers are the same auto or manual.If you need a center auto,I have one that is done.I can use a center 4spd.

[oldcarnut]

Thanks for the info.  The center is 4391  front 4394  rear 4393-1  Typed it in wrong. I looked here http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/MasterList/index30.html  but didn't find the exact number  4393-1
By the wrong bowl do you mean gas line on the wrong side?    

Your motor is from a C-body,1973,steel crank.Carbs are 69 1/2.If you got your numbers right,you have two center 4spd carbs and an end rear.Are you sure the one isn't a 4393?.

Just saw your pictures.Front carb has the wrong bowl.The outers are the same auto or manual.If you need a center auto,I have one that is done.I can use a center 4spd.

I can do this.   The breather base looks like it was trimmed around the edges some  .  The others I've seen look different.  

[UFO]

I'm thinking with the fitting in the base like that maybe that was a shaker base plate.

[oldcarnut]

Max is going to take care of my carbs for me so this weekend I started tearing it down and got a few more surprises. I looked up the cross and X meant the .010 under grind.  Other than the normal greasy covered block it started out looking ok.  Didn't try too hard but couldn't get the crank to rotate but since there was no oil in it (been sitting about 8yrs but ran then) I didn't sweat it too much.  Took a few pics then turned it over to remove the oil pan.  When I did a pile of sludge glopped out  .  I expected the antifreeze which was still looking good but the goo I hadn't seen it like that before. The pan still had a 1/2" in it.  The indention of the oil pickup was in it and sludge inside it.    I also thought the 346 heads may have had hardened seats but according to this they don't, only the 452's. http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/index.html
Doesn't seem like a lot of difference between the 906 and 346 there either but I do have a set of 906's I can put them in.  Maybe early this week I can get the crank over to the shop for an eval.  I'm going to try and sell off/trade the other parts on it (carb. intake and misc.) I won't be needing

[oldcarnut]

Everythings tore down and at the machine shop.  Even though the block was stamped with the cross, the shop said the crank mains were stock size but needed to grind 10 under to clean up.  The rods journals were all good but already at 10 under as stamped on the crank.  That's a little different from what I thought the Maltese Cross meant.   The rods were ok and he said didn't need rework but is that ok to do that and just reinstall them?  I took in a set of 906 heads for rebuilding-- hardened seats, valves, springs, guides etc but am now considering alum heads.  By the time I get all that done, for a few hundred more I can get the Stealth Heads.  I read the posts on valve keeper issues. I can still take them to the shop for checking and 10 deg upgrade if necessary as I read the posts about that too.   Any newer breakages with them on recent purchases by anyone?  So my carbs are in Penn. with 62 Max for reworking, my tranny in Kansas with RD, and now for some more questions and recommendations.  All my previous engine build plans and swaps are on hold. Here's what I have and what I'm thinking about the build.
Tranny is 727 with 11" 383 TC
3.55's rear maybe switch to 3.23 for trips  Tires 245-255 60 -15"
Looking at  Speed Pro ZL2355F Pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRW-L2355F/
Looking at 440Source Stealth heads with keeper upgrades.  
http://store.440source.com/Stealth-Aluminum-Cylinder-Head-COMPLETE-SINGLE-HEAD/productinfo/200-1055/
6 pack carbs
Stock HP exhaust manifolds and pipes.  
Need cam recommendations that will work well with the 6bbl, head, compression setup and pwr disc brakes.s  
Want some good streetability for regular reliable driving with the ability to have some good crisp performance and power when I stomp it.  

Whatchya think?

[b5blue]

  346 heads exhaust are induction hardened, and I've read they out flow 906's on exhaust side. Mine work well and if yours have not been reseated a bunch will also.(cut through the hardening) Due to the nature of a six pack vacuum signature is important and I used the M.P. road runner "Resto" grind that matches it. Now I wish I'd just used the M.P. six pack cam (3 bolt) as the lifter taper is reduced for durability and it could help deal with the reduction of ZDP issues modern oil has. (I had already bought a M.P. one bolt timing gear set) My six pack has had no issues running modern mix fuel. I'm running Speed Pro Hypers with 9.5 to 1 ratio and all seems fine. The M.P. 145K T.C. (1900-2100 stall) matches factory spec. (I have yet to install mine, it does not like the higher stall I have now) I'd save the money and go with ether iron heads, I don't know if Stealth's have angled plugs but angled plugs and stock HP manifolds (I have them too) are a bad match. I think much of what you think you'll gain with aluminum heads, you'll loose with stock HP exhaust. Plan on needing the 2 things, a valley pan with the "heat" blocked off (I drilled a 1/8th hole in both sides to allow heat for the choke to warm up.) and also intake gaskets...most likely you'll need the paper thin ones, my "heat blocked" valley pan came with thicker ones and made the intake sit too high, the bolts wouldn't start in the threads. It's a variable to be adjusted for with gasket thickness. (How much surfacing the heads and block have had and production variances ect..) Others use no gaskets OK but mine leaked oil on top of the valley pan with no gaskets above and below the valley pan. Google "Mr. Six Pack" he has many good tips and info from his years of experience running F.A.S.T. racing. 

[oldcarnut]

There were 346's on the block. I read this article and it had a good comparison of heads. http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/index.html  I hadn't seen mentioned where they were hardened so I thought that things didn't get hard until the 452's. I figured the 906's would be more period correct to put on when I was going to build it for the 69 R/T and switch the R/T motor to the clone but have since reconsidered the switch.  From what I saw on the Stealth heads, the plugs are straight but I'm glad you mentioned it because I didn't think about them possibly being angled.  They'll cost twice what the iron heads run after rebuild.  I know running the stock exhaust will be restrictive but I don't know if I want to put up with the heat and some other hassles of headers but I was looking at the detonation issues that Alum heads help with.   Also I just recently bought the new exhaust.   The 6 pack cam is the same as the 383-440 HP cams with 3 bolt instead of 1 but it may be the one I need.  Thought there might be some folks that ran some other brands/grinds thatworked well for them in a similar build usage. Thanks for the good info.    Anybody else run a different 6 pack cam that works good for them.

[b5blue]

  The key thing on the actual 3 bolt is the lobe taper, it's less angled and I don't know for certain but it seems it would be more durable with the new oils and higher valve spring loads. It's very important to decide on the heads before ordering pistons as the most effective C.R. will be higher for the aluminum heads. It sounds to me that we are thinking alike. I favored stock components reliability over building more power. The 346 heads were not true hardened exhaust seats, the seats were highly heated with induction, that is to say the surface of the seat is tempered and can be "cut through" after several valve seating operations. Mine were original never redone heads, so I just warned the head shop to "go lightly" on them.
  I also found out this year about FBO's A688 ignition kit and having them build a dizzy to my engines spec. Don sets up a dizzy curved, phased and advanced to your specific build that includes a calibrated vacuum advance that runs off full intake manifold vacuum not the port on the center carb. Boy did this make a big difference! I found big mileage and power gains from what he sold me, the six pack's idle really loves having that vacuum advance working proper. (This set up would let me run Pro Forms center carb. metering block with screw in jetting and still run vacuum advance that it has no port for.)
  The other thing I did was add Mancini's 120amp Denso alt. this year. (I have a "topic" here somewhere) It really solved my "poor idle charging" problem nicely and it to performs above my expectations. I have the Mopar Performance B/RB engine book that now seems unavailable so if you need something looked up let me know. 

[oldcarnut]

Called Summit and ordered the Speed Pro ZL2355F Pistons today along with the Comp #741-16 retainers Comp # 613-16 locks for the Stealth heads.  When I call 440Source, is there anything else recommended I need to get specifically from them related to their heads.  Need spark plug and head gasket part numbers you used for the Stealth heads?  I believe the .040 should give me almost 10.0-1 compression.  

[oldcarnut]

After the block was precleaned before machining,  I brought it home to clean up a lot of the flashing and ragged edging.  Some of it was very brittle and other spots just came loose easily at the touch of the grinder.  It's a wonder how the metal pieces never separated originally and fell in the oil.  Here's a few pics of before and afters.

[oldcarnut]

A few more.  The cam bore was a little tough but got it smoothed out ok.  Just didn't get a good after pic.

[oldcarnut]

Last 2.   

[BigBlockSam]

 

[oldcarnut]

Well I've just about collected all the parts.  I put down a list for ref.  of what I'm using. After just having sending in about a $4500 tax ck to Uncle Sam  I can start working back on the build.  Posted a pic of the carb resto.  Sho look purdy  especially from what they were  . Here's the majority build list.  Anybody see any problems let me know. 
440-6
Heads-440 Source Stealth with CCA-613 CCA-741 Comp Cam 10* Locks & Keepers and valves lapped
Head Bolt Kit- ARP-145-3706
Rocker Assy.- Crane Gold adj. 1.5
Pushrods- Crane 3/8
Lifters- CCA-822-16 Comp Cam Hyd Lifters
Cam Brgs.- 1453M Sealed Power Cam Brgs
Cam- K-56H Engle Cam 505 Lift 272 Dur 112* LC    3-Bolt
Timing Chain Set- CCA-2109 Comp Cam 3 Bolt

Pistons- TRW-L2355F30 Speedpro 6pk Pistons
Rings- Sealed Power ZR9224035 Plasma Moly
Connecting Rod Bolt Kit- ARP-145-6402
Rod Bearings-2320CP10
Main Brgs- Sealed Power Z4924MA10

SUM 163383 Summit Harmonic Balancer
Rotating assy balanced

Wires, dist, and coil all Firecore
Spark Plugs- NGK 4291
Intermediate Shaft Bushing- Mopar Perf  DCC-P1737725
Intermediate Shaft- Mopar Perf  DCC-P3571071 
6 pack restored with #65 jets in center carb.
Valley Pan -MS96000 Felpro
Engine Gasket Kit- Felpro QKS2110
Oil Pump- Melling High Volume M-63HV
Freeze Plug Kit- Seal Power Z3818011

[440]

Did your set up already have the center carb choke or did you have to get it separately ?

Are you doing any carb mods to better tune your 6 pack ?

[Challenger340]

I see you are "balancing" the Engine in your Plans ?
IMO,
Why not consider a lighter Piston than the 2355's as an option, from JE/SRP or ICON ?

They offer "free power" with the reduced bobweight, WITH the added benefit to reliability of less stress on the connecting rods ?

[oldcarnut]

Did your set up already have the center carb choke or did you have to get it separately ?
Are you doing any carb mods to better tune your 6 pack ?

The choke was on the intake when i got it.  It has Holley 97 stamped on it.  Don't know for sure that it's the right one as a lot of other things were mixed up on the whole system which is probably why the former owner couldn't get them running right. But, it seems to fit ok and I'm sure it'll need some tweaking once it's running.  I told Bill what my intentions were and let him make whatever improvements he thought would help based on all his experiences with building them.  He's been real helpful and was great to have him restore them for me . They're 69 1/2's plates inside and not 70's as I was told by the guy I got them from and also this is my first 6 pack setup and I was clueless when I bought it. I need to get a fuel line made up for it now so I'm going to try to make a stainless fuel rail type design instead of Tee's and tubing. I did order this book to reference to http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Mopar-Six-Pack-Engine-Handbook/Larry-Shepard/e/9781440637681/?itm=1&USRI=mopar+six-pack+engine+handbook%3a+how+to+rebuild+and+modify+the+440+6-barrel+and+340+6-barrel+or+convert+your+la+small-block     Here's a couple of before shots. 

[oldcarnut]

I see you are "balancing" the Engine in your Plans ?
IMO,
Why not consider a lighter Piston than the 2355's as an option, from JE/SRP or ICON ?
They offer "free power" with the reduced bobweight, WITH the added benefit to reliability of less stress on the connecting rods ?

Thanks for the suggestion but at the time I bought them (about 5 months ago) they were the best recommendations I could find when I was checking and asking.  After all the experiences I got with having the rods recond.,  I almost wish I bought new rods too instead but cost's were getting up there and bills needing paid.  There was a lot of grinding done to them for the balancing at least it looks that way to me.  The pistons came in a matched set and they got the new balancer, a set of rings & brgs, and flex plate to go for the balancer. I just didn't expect it to need that much. I post pics later.  I open to suggestions and help so stick with me as I know I'll be asking some seemly dumb questions as I go. 

[b5blue]

Larry's book is good but the best breakdown for 6 pack is the 70 FSM by far. 

[440]

I wasn't too impressed with the tune-ability of the 6 pack as there isn't a whole lot you can do to fine tune it. I assume in your case you'd have a similar issue.

I think the outboard carb metering plates with changeable jets and the kill bleed mod for the vacuum pots on the outboard carbs are a must for a performance build. None of them do any damage to the carbs that would render them unpractical.

Also, where are you getting your air filter element ? I'm looking for one at the moment and they are getting hard to find. From what I gather Fram discontinued it and the only real option is $90 for one of the few remaining filters or go K&N which I don't what to do 

[oldcarnut]

The filters for both my oval cleaners R/T and this are K& N.  I did run a few local store online inquiries and they list the Fram CA332V which is the # I come up with but not available in store.  This guy has 10 of them though http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fram-CA332V-Air-Filter-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c1af68386QQitemZ120711447430QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories for $77 and free shipping but his feedback sucks so be careful.  I had the cam ground to the 112* lsa specs it is after a little research and recommendations from both members and cam techs because of the higher vacuum it will draw and using the stock HP exhaust.  From what I've been told is that the 6 bbl setups like a lot of vacuum which makes it a lot easier to tune which the bigger cams tend to give trouble.  I haven't heard of the kill bleed mod.  I reckon once it all goes together and running I'll have to go from there.  

[firefighter3931]

Looks great Dave ! I really like your cam choice for the intended build with HP exhaust manifolds. 

The cam will idle real nice with a very strong vacuum signal...perfect for power brakes and 6-pack tuning. 

I didn't see you mention the oilpan so i'll go ahead and recommend the replacement hemi pan and pickup from Mancini. Fits the stock k-frame just fine and does not hang low. Increases oil capacity to 7 qts which is a bonus with the HV oil pump. 

A great deal for $169.95 with the pickup. Order the 3/8 unless your block has been modified for the larger 1/2in hemi pickup 

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mancini1.html


Ron

[oldcarnut]

Thanks Ron, you were a big help on the cam selection process    The oil pan is on my list as I have been looking to see if a deal came up on a good used set or saw if anyone carried the new ones cheaper.  I already had the 402 and windage tray from a HP motor from way back but I'm going to Hemi pan and staying with the 3/8.  I ran an HV pump before and had a few times I lost pressure for a few secs after coming to a fast stop which let me know the oil level was close to the add mark  Looking forward to getting the Firecore system in from you.  I got a nice surprise tonight at work as a friend brought back my dash pieces signed by Richard Petty  .  Made my night

[oldcarnut]

Dang the months are just rolling by fast and progress is standing still.  Decided to blow everything off today and get at least something done. Had some cam fit problems http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,84113.0.html earlier and thought I'd plastigage and check my clearances.  Seems nothing has gone just perfectly smooth with this build.  Went to install the last set of rod bearings and found it had left off one of the locking tabs so had to stop and take them back today and order another set.  Seems like a lot of grinding took place for the balance job too especially off the rod ends.  I received the 6qt oil pan and pickup with the valve covers from 440source and got it painted.  Best price I found on them-$120 for both.
Rod brg. clearances were all at about .0018" . #5 was .0015
Mains were the same about .0018" Not quite .002 on the package scale but more than the .0015 so I estimated the .0018
Between the rods are supposed to be .009-.017 but 3 sets were .021-.023 and between rods 5 & 6 was .010.  I hope that will fly but if it's going to be a problem let me know.
Thrust brg. play was .004
I read on a older thread that it was beneficial to file a 45* on one of the #3 brg. halves joint line to aid in a little oiling to the thrust face. Is it still good?
The FSM stated on the #1 main upper bearing half -tab side- was also supposed to have a 45* champher on it to give the timing chain some oil.  None of the new bearings bearings had this.  Is this something else I need to file on it? Lastly what do you guys do about the rod brg. oil V-groove?  Mine didn't have it as shown in the pic so I guess that's one more thing I have to file in too.  Did a search but wasn't able to pull up any info.

[Rolling_Thunder]

You'll love the K56 Cam from Engle

[Chryco Psycho]

notch the brg for oiling , the extra rod side clearance will put more oil up to the cam not a bad thing .What make of brgs ?

[RGA]

I just saw the post, there is only 1 person I would talk to about building that motor and its Art senior at Six Pack Performance in Albuquerque. Call him at 505-345-8500. He knows everything about building these and has been doing it for ever. I owne a repair shop in albuquerque and I have know art for a long time.

[oldcarnut]

notch the brg for oiling , the extra rod side clearance will put more oil up to the cam not a bad thing .What make of brgs ?

Thanks, that's a relief
The bearings were all Sealed Power
Rod Bearings-2320CP10
Main Brgs- 4924MA10

[Challenger340]

I think, that the Clevitte CB527P Rod Bearings still have the Factory Oil squirt holes ?
no matter,
should Oil fine if the Rod side clearance is there.....

[oldcarnut]

Thanks, using Pistons- TRW-L2355F30 Speedpro 6pk Pistons and Rings- Sealed Power ZR9224035 Plasma Moly, what should be the best ring gap recommended?

[Chryco Psycho]

.004 / inch of bore so .018-20
make sure you stagger the ring gaps around the piston when you install them

[Challenger340]

Thanks, using Pistons- TRW-L2355F30 Speedpro 6pk Pistons and Rings- Sealed Power ZR9224035 Plasma Moly, what should be the best ring gap recommended?

Without a Blower or Nitrous......

just "N/A" then .018"-.020" top & second works well, with plenty of safety for 10-10.5:1 C.R. and 6K rpm