69 Charger barn find on ebay, cleanest ever?

[fc7_plumcrazy]

Hi,

I would drive the T7 bronze as it is.
My 68 RT is also all original (just one front fender got painted many moons ago), factory qq1 blue with blue interieur and a 4-speed.
It has quite a bit of rust in the lower quarters, too as well as the valance and rockers. I would NEVER start repairing (welding, painting) it, it is only once original. And it can drive with rust, too.

Just my opinion

Carsten

[tan top]

If someone took the time to detail this car from top to bottom, it would be getting a totally different review. If it were as clean and shiny as possible everyones mind would automatically go to thinking that it was babied and had great car its whole life.If you ask me a great detail is what held this car back for demanding a lot more cash.   

yeah  thats true  1HD  
every mopar guy loves seeing dusty found in a barn !!  been hidden for 30 years etc etc ,  !!    but  needs a clean/detail job  

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

If someone took the time to detail this car from top to bottom, it would be getting a totally different review. If it were as clean and shiny as possible everyones mind would automatically go to thinking that it was babied and had great car its whole life.If you ask me a great detail is what held this car back for demanding a lot more cash.   

You bring up a valid point - would the car have brought more bids if cleaned/detailed? 

Everything about the car looks correct (except the coil, and tires) Dash pad and all bezels look mint. Anyone who has ever been through any degree of a restoration knows, the little parts can eat you alive! 

As the ad said, it was parked in 1983. So for 14 years, the car was driven... I think my truck has more years on the road than that 

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

I don't know. Rusty bumpers, gas tank , torn front seat, both front fenders with dents and I think the hood doesn't match or is paint worn.  I think it's the kinda car that after it was cleaned up someone would show it around for awhile and then come to realize it needs a total restoration and then realize they paid to much to do that. Hard call?  But I do understand why some people think it's a clean survivor.  Very hard call to keep original or restore, as posted before it needs to be cleaned up and seen in person.

Both front fenders dented?? Not in the pics I saw... Only the drivers side... Also, as you said, car should be seen in person. Pics can be deceiving

[hemi-hampton]

I don't know. Rusty bumpers, gas tank , torn front seat, both front fenders with dents and I think the hood doesn't match or is paint worn.  I think it's the kinda car that after it was cleaned up someone would show it around for awhile and then come to realize it needs a total restoration and then realize they paid to much to do that. Hard call?  But I do understand why some people think it's a clean survivor.  Very hard call to keep original or restore, as posted before it needs to be cleaned up and seen in person.

My question is, are those correct exhaust tips?  I thought they had a belly shape to them like a Bass.

You could not get Exhaust tips on California sold/delivered cars. California cars had turn downs.  LEON.

[1969chargerrtse]

I don't know. Rusty bumpers, gas tank , torn front seat, both front fenders with dents and I think the hood doesn't match or is paint worn.  I think it's the kinda car that after it was cleaned up someone would show it around for awhile and then come to realize it needs a total restoration and then realize they paid to much to do that. Hard call?  But I do understand why some people think it's a clean survivor.  Very hard call to keep original or restore, as posted before it needs to be cleaned up and seen in person.

My question is, are those correct exhaust tips?  I thought they had a belly shape to them like a Bass.

You could not get Exhaust tips on California sold/delivered cars. California cars had turn downs.  LEON.

Oh yeah.  Then isn't that the incorrect air cleaner also for the silence kit in Ca?

[1969chargerrtse]

I don't know. Rusty bumpers, gas tank , torn front seat, both front fenders with dents and I think the hood doesn't match or is paint worn.  I think it's the kinda car that after it was cleaned up someone would show it around for awhile and then come to realize it needs a total restoration and then realize they paid to much to do that. Hard call?  But I do understand why some people think it's a clean survivor.  Very hard call to keep original or restore, as posted before it needs to be cleaned up and seen in person.

Both front fenders dented?? Not in the pics I saw... Only the drivers side... Also, as you said, car should be seen in person. Pics can be deceiving

Ooops.  There's a ding in the front edge of the hood, thought it was the fender.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Wonder if a paintless dent guy could really get those dents out of the T7 car? 

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

...was reading the new issue of Mopar Collectors Guide where a 1970 Hemi Charger (sunroof car) was being touted as a "survivor" - that 1970 car, lost its original engine many years ago and has "75% original paint" after repairing rust in the quarters and trunk...

Really?? Is that a "Survivor" without the original engine and having had extensive rust repair?


Survivor is such an overused word - I can see why David Burroughs sought to copyright the term  

So, the "Barn Find" Charger would be a Survivor - or as David Burroughs might award, a "Zenith" accolade might be in order for the T7 car in this thread  

Here is some interesting reading on whether to restore - or NOT  

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=Restoreitornot

Restore it? Or Not!
By David Burroughs
The question "when to restore a Collector Car versus leaving it alone" elicits different answers from people with different missions.  Here are 3 points of view:

1.  Bloomington Gold's mission is to preserve the historic accuracy of factory production cars.  Therefore, we recognize and inspire collectors to preserve cars in or restore them to typical factory production...no better, no worse, no different. But make no mistake, our first goal is to preserve whenever possible.  We suggest restoration only if the car is already restored (altered) or has deteriorated to a point where finishes such as paint, fabrics, or plating are no longer useful as references.  In short, our philosophy is the same as the Smithsonian Institute: Do no harm to historically accurate artifacts.  Period.

2.  In contrast, a Restoration Shop's mission is (generally) to restore things.  Otherwise they'd be called Preservation Shops.  In their defense, they don't make money until someone wants something restored.  Not only that, many restoration shops simply lack the knowledge or motive to advise a novice owner or collector when to "leave it alone."  So, their answer when to restore is normally far less conservative than Bloomington Gold's.

3. Finally, the Car Owner's mission is usually to receive recognition.  Historically, that equates to making it "shiny and perfect," because neighbors and fans at the local car show normally don't ooh and aah over dulled paint and a slight tear in a seat cover.  Even if it's on low mileage SURVIVOR® or BENCHMARK® cars.  It is tragic how many wonderfully preserved (and valuable) cars' DNAs have been "destroyed" by cosmetic  restorations in order to win a $25 trophy or the praise of an oblivious next door neighbor.

Like it or not, there will always be these last two segments of the collector car industry exerting pressure away from historic perfection and toward cosmetic perfection. It's just human nature.

All that said, Bloomington Gold has been remarkably successful inspiring more and more people to appreciate the value and rarity of authentic unrestored originals...and it appears to be gaining some ground.  First, notice the difference between cars restored in 1978 vs. 2008.  Although most restorations today are "over the top," they are still far more accurate than they were 30 years ago when Bloomington Gold began moving the industry in this direction.   Second, notice the broad use of the term "survivor" by people trying to add value to the cars they are marketing.  Until Bloomington Gold introduced the world to SURVIVOR® in 1990, no one described cars that way.  Today, people are becoming proud of it.  A few character marks and patina have become badges of honor and certainly help document a car's authenticity compared to a restored one. Bloomington Gold's vision has come true in large part and people are following it.
In fact, a collector just paid a cool $1.65 million for a 1911 Oldsmobile that doesn't quite yet meet SURVIVOR Standards (because it can't pass the road test part of SURVIVOR Certification).  Why pay so much for a car that doesn't run?  The owner was wise enough to understand its significance and rarity as is.  Although it may be a long time before the majority of collectors figure this out, a rapidly growing segment of the collector car market is beginning to realize the benefits, rarity, and prestige of owning these type cars.  Once restored, there is one less.
Run a want ad looking for a beautifully restored Corvette, Ferrari, Mopar, or some other highly sought after collector car. Responses will come out of the woodwork.  Good ones, too.  Then run an identical want ad except change the wording from beautifully restored to "nearly show room new unrestored original."  Then wait.  Then wait some more.  Then think about what this means.  It means that highly unrestored original cars are by definition much more rare than restored ones.  Therefore, Bloomington Gold is confident that more and more people will become increasingly aware of the key ingredients that drive up the desirability and value of most collectibles:                  
• Rarity                  
• Desirability                  
• Paperwork / Documentation                  
• Excellent unrestored original condition
Likewise, we urge owners/collectors to consider the following facts and to think twice before moving toward cosmetic restorations on really good original unrestored cars.

Fact #1:
In the collector world (other than cars), restoration and refinishing drives value down.Within the great collections of antiques, toys, firearms, timepieces, furniture, paintings, coins, and other historic pieces or fine art, the unrestored item is the most desirable and prestigious to collect.  In fact, some would argue that refinishing or restoring a fine original piece is equivalent to an act of vandalism.  In the long run, why will car collecting be any different?

Fact #2:
Like vandalism, restorations can be repaired; however, they can never be reversed.

Fact #3:
Simply refinishing (or repainting) is equivalent to restoration in termsof irreversibility.

What's wrong with this picture?

We are aware of several owners who purchased BENCHMARK Certified Corvettes and restored them to make them cosmetically perfect.  Ironically, they ended up "stealing defeat from the jaws of victory."  They started with a car that had already achieved the most prestigious award; then spent over $100,000 more to make it cosmetically perfect, and ended up rendering the car capable of only attaining a Gold Certificate and never again being able to qualify for the much more prestigious BENCHMARK.  How's that for going backwards?  And paying for it to boot!

In conclusion, here is our advice to our friends in the collector car industry:
Decide which type perfection is best to pursue; cosmetic perfection or historic perfection?
Do not act on advice from restoration shops alone.  Get outside opinions from noted / respected judges, writers, collectors, or others with no vested interest.  Then decide.
Realize the true rarity of SURVIVOR® and BENCHMARK® level cars in comparison to similar cars that have been restored.
Realize the premium that many collectors, organizations, and dealers place on cosmetic perfection versus historic perfection and authenticity demonstrated by lack of restoration.
Realize the premium the Smithsonian and other fine art museums place on "originals."
If you want something cosmetically perfect, there are thousands of restoration candidates available for that purpose without needing to use good unrestored originals:
                 • Ones that have already been restored.
                 • Others that have deteriorated clearly past the point of preservation.
                 • Still others that are historically important but are in pieces.
For more information about:
                 • Becoming SURVIVOR® or BENCHMARK® Certified
                 • Becoming a Certified SURVIVOR® Judge
                 • How SURVIVOR and BENCHMARK trademarks help the industry
                 • Criteria for SURVIVOR and BENCHMARK
                 • The important differences between being unrestored and Certified
                 • Preservation Techniques
                 • How to determine what you have

Contact: David Burroughs
309-888-2588
david@BloomingtonGold.com

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

More about the term, Survivor:

As read here:

http://www.survivorcollectorcar.com/?link=trademark

Importance of the Trademark:

Background
Before 1990, ads in Hemmings or other magazines described unrestored cars in many ways (original, unrestored, authentic, genuine, stock, preserved, etc.) but the term "Survivor" cars was never used.  Then things began to change. David Burroughs, who created Gold Certification in 1978, created the standards and process for judging original unrestored Corvettes in 1989. Bloomington Gold then immediately registered SURVIVOR® (and BENCHMARK®) with the United States Patent and Trademark Office as the brand names for Authenticating Certain Collectible Automobiles.


Like an explosion over the past five years, Survivor has been used by people all over the world as a descriptive icon like "hot rod" or "muscle car."  However, unlike hot rod or muscle car, Survivor® is a brand name.  Unlike hot rods and muscle cars which are vague in definition (and were never trademarked), Survivor has a very clear and distinct definition, set of standards, and process which must be met in order to be properly used. So, a more parallel comparison is that Survivor is often used more along the lines of Xerox, Kleenex, Scotch tape, and Vise Grips.  People are so familiar and comfortable with these trademarked brand names that they don't think twice about using them as generic descriptions of these different product categories.  But it is misuse, nonetheless.

Nearly 20 years after it was coined by Bloomington Gold, some enthusiasts have the mistaken impression that Bloomington Gold was trying to hijack the term Survivor from the car collector community. Just the opposite was true. Bloomington Gold has made significant effort to protect the integrity of the brand it created nearly 20 years ago.  We have communicated through articles, websites, and personal conversations with leaders and the media to educate the community why it is important to object to its improper usage.  It is damaging because it dilutes the "value" in having a clear and set standard—symbolized by the SURVIVOR mark—to assess vehicles in terms of their unrestored condition.  This value is not so much to Bloomington Gold as it is to the people who obtain SURVIVOR Certification for their cars.

In other words, the Bloomington Gold SURVIVOR process adds value to the vehicle and the owner can then communicate that value to potential buyers (in ads, at auction, etc.) by use of the SURVIVOR mark.  With one single word, the buying public then understands much more fully the nature and quality of the vehicle being promoted or sold.  That is an important "short hand" communication technique that is real and meaningful.  If it wasn't, why would so many people be so emotional about wanting to use it?  However, when others misuse the mark and refer to anything and everything as a "Survivor", the collector that has the real SURVIVOR certification has lost real value--in terms of real dollars--because of such misuse.  Without our efforts to protect, educate and provide true SURVIVOR Certification to all marques, the mark will become so diluted as to be meaningless.  That would be a great loss.

Thus, not only will Bloomington Gold lose a valuable trademark, but the interested public will no longer be able to rely upon that trademark as a set "standard" with a set "value".  Everyone in the collector car community loses in such a scenario.

Course of Action:
Rather than chasing people away from our brand name through lawsuits, Bloomington Gold believes it is important for the greater good of the entire collector car community, to pull them closer through education, inspiration, and inclusion into our process.  In short, we need to offer our Survivor Certification process to any other marque whose judges are willing and able to meet the same high standards Bloomington Gold requires for its Corvette judges.  Certified SURVIVOR judges may then award SURVIVOR Certification to the cars within the marque for which they themselves have been trained, tested, and certified by Bloomington Gold.  Permanent records including photo documentation, signed inspection forms, and any important notes would then be kept in master files at Bloomington Gold headquarters for future reference and authentication.  This way the entire collector car community (far beyond Bloomington Gold) contributes to the preservation of not only these wonderful automobiles but also the integrity of the long standing SURVIVOR standards.

To this end, Bloomington Gold is embarking upon a three-year plan to put this industry-wide process into place.

Once a marque has bona fide Certified SURVIVOR Judges, that judging team has the authority to sign off SURVIVOR Certified cars for which they are qualified and the owners have the right to use the SURVIVOR trademark in ads, displays, descriptions, etc. etc. as long as it is associated with the car to which it was awarded.

[Belgium R/T -68]

I see the use of real survivors necessary for the sake of history and that it gives us, hobby-
restorers the possibility to see how everything looked like when the car left the factory but to own and drive one myself? No, it must be a danger to your life to drive around with rotten rubberbushings and brakeparts that are maybe destroyed by rust and moisture.

Per

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

I circulated some pics from the eBay auction to a few friends within the collector hobby and all agreed, the car is cool for sure - one suggested the car be brought to one of the major events and presented, as-is 

One thing they all agreed, do not "restore" a car like that Barn Find - preserve what is there  It is only original once!

The other common thing, they all wanted to somehow get the car at the major events, representing the marque 

[The70RT]

I see the use of real survivors necessary for the sake of history and that it gives us, hobby-
restorers the possibility to see how everything looked like when the car left the factory but to own and drive one myself? No, it must be a danger to your life to drive around with rotten rubberbushings and brakeparts that are maybe destroyed by rust and moisture.

Per

Yeah and it hasn't been ran or driven since who knows when. Brake componets and fuel tank would have to be gone through. The engine would probably loose a lot of originality to get it up to par. I don't know who would want to pay 25K to drag it around on a trailer just to show people what an unrestored charger looks like.

[tan top]

true 

[PocketThunder]

I circulated some pics from the eBay auction to a few friends within the collector hobby and all agreed, the car is cool for sure - one suggested the car be brought to one of the major events and presented, as-is 

One thing they all agreed, do not "restore" a car like that Barn Find - preserve what is there  It is only original once!

The other common thing, they all wanted to somehow get the car at the major events, representing the marque 

Maybe i can contact the guy and we can park next to each other at Mopars in the Park next May. 

My car was in similar condition when i got it, since then i have done the following though to make it drivealble and enjoyable for my family:

1. Bought it from Southern California August of 2009:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60095.0.html
1. Rebuilt engine, new radiator.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68741.0.html
2. Removed tons of mouse nests/turds.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,70436.0.html
3. New Headliner, Tires, brake pads, Carpet, heat and sound deadener on the floor and firewall.
4. Hit a deer. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,70995.0.html 

Paul

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

I circulated some pics from the eBay auction to a few friends within the collector hobby and all agreed, the car is cool for sure - one suggested the car be brought to one of the major events and presented, as-is 

One thing they all agreed, do not "restore" a car like that Barn Find - preserve what is there  It is only original once!

The other common thing, they all wanted to somehow get the car at the major events, representing the marque 

Maybe i can contact the guy and we can park next to each other at Mopars in the Park next May. 

My car was in similar condition when i got it, since then i have done the following though to make it drivealble and enjoyable for my family:

1. Bought it from Southern California August of 2009:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60095.0.html
1. Rebuilt engine, new radiator.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,68741.0.html
2. Removed tons of mouse nests/turds.  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,70436.0.html
3. New Headliner, Tires, brake pads, Carpet, heat and sound deadener on the floor and firewall.
4. Hit a deer. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,70995.0.html 

Paul

Paul,

That is a great story on your car - right up to the last link  That's awful! In my area, we just began our annual managed deer kills. Of course, some are upset the deer population is being thinned 

Anyways, great job with your car. 

[PocketThunder]

Paul,

That is a great story on your car - right up to the last link  That's awful! In my area, we just began our annual managed deer kills. Of course, some are upset the deer population is being thinned 

Anyways, great job with your car. 

Thanks, ya know whats nice about having a "survivor" Charger is that there is nothing that i want/need to buy for it, or some performance upgrade that i have to save for someday.  With my other Chargers in the past i have always wanted a 5-speed, different rims, headers, etc..  Now i can put my extra money into gas to drive it and other fun toys like a snowmobile, boat, 4-wheeler, etc..

[Charger440RDN]

Well here is another 69 R/T but the engine block isn't original and there is no question that it needs complete restoration. The bidding is up to $12K   This one is an SE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-440-R-T-SE-Andy-Granatelli-Owned-/150511681411?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item230b31ff83

[PocketThunder]

Well here is another 69 R/T but the engine block isn't original and there is no question that it needs complete restoration. The bidding is up to $12K   This one is an SE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-440-R-T-SE-Andy-Granatelli-Owned-/150511681411?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item230b31ff83

Ya i was talking to bakerhillpins about that car the other day and the consenus was that it is too far gone from suvivor status and needs pretty much everything gone thru,.  I would guess the value on it to be not much more than 15k if its already at 12.  but i bet they want north of 20k for it.   

[1969chargerrtse]

Well here is another 69 R/T but the engine block isn't original and there is no question that it needs complete restoration. The bidding is up to $12K   This one is an SE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-440-R-T-SE-Andy-Granatelli-Owned-/150511681411?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item230b31ff83

Ya i was talking to bakerhillpins about that car the other day and the consenus was that it is too far gone from suvivor status and needs pretty much everything gone thru,.  I would guess the value on it to be not much more than 15k if its already at 12.  but i bet they want north of 20k for it.   

I like it, great car to restore but as we know the bills run up real fast.  A loaded white R/T SE is nice.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Well here is another 69 R/T but the engine block isn't original and there is no question that it needs complete restoration. The bidding is up to $12K   This one is an SE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-440-R-T-SE-Andy-Granatelli-Owned-/150511681411?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item230b31ff83

Ya i was talking to bakerhillpins about that car the other day and the consenus was that it is too far gone from suvivor status and needs pretty much everything gone thru,.  I would guess the value on it to be not much more than 15k if its already at 12.  but i bet they want north of 20k for it.   

That is an interesting car, for sure! Lots of options!!!

However, Non-original motor = loss in value
Extensive bodywork needed = $$$$

If they do want north of $20k for that white one and it takes another $10K+++ for paint/body (plus little extras which add up), it makes some of the other cars look like a better deal - and they HAVE their original drivetrains. Just saying... 

[tan top]

Well here is another 69 R/T but the engine block isn't original and there is no question that it needs complete restoration. The bidding is up to $12K   This one is an SE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-440-R-T-SE-Andy-Granatelli-Owned-/150511681411?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item230b31ff83

Well here is another 69 R/T but the engine block isn't original and there is no question that it needs complete restoration. The bidding is up to $12K   This one is an SE

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Charger-440-R-T-SE-Andy-Granatelli-Owned-/150511681411?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item230b31ff83

Ya i was talking to bakerhillpins about that car the other day and the consenus was that it is too far gone from suvivor status and needs pretty much everything gone thru,.  I would guess the value on it to be not much more than 15k if its already at 12.  but i bet they want north of 20k for it.  

That is an interesting car, for sure! Lots of options!!!

However, Non-original motor = loss in value
Extensive bodywork needed = $$$$

If they do want north of $20k for that white one and it takes another $10K+++ for paint/body (plus little extras which add up), it makes some of the other cars look like a better deal - and they HAVE their original drivetrains. Just saying...  

awesome charger when restored !! but that car needs a complete resto also , posting the pictures from ebay , cause when the ad goes & so will pictures  
lot of options !! nother   three color combo , different top , body interior 

[tan top]

 

[tan top]

 

[tan top]