More Ethanol in Gas?

[tricky lugnuts]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/higher-ethanol-blends-for-gas-likely-to-be-okd-2010-10-13

Basic gist - government is expected to allow 15% ethanol blend in gas, up from 10% . . .

Automakers, consumer advocates say older engines, those older than 2001, are not designed to burn such a high concentration of ethanol and may be damaged.

Gotta love the whole - "reduce our reliance on fossil fuels" by simply watering them down with ethanol . . .

Plus, if they damage all our old engines, we have to buy new cars!

[Todd Wilson]

That will increase the need for more corn. Which will jack the corn price. Which will up your food prices even more then they are now. Seems like almost everything in the store is connected to corn in some way. Made from it  came from something that ate it or the green plastic package was made with it.


Todd

[tricky lugnuts]

Yeah, I was reading that somewhere . . .

And sounds like this year is already a bad year for corn supply, with droughts, etc.

[HPP]

You can get as much enthanol from sugar cane and sugar beets as you can corn.

[Highbanked Hauler]

You can get as much enthanol from sugar cane and sugar beets as you can corn.

Isn't soy beans one of the top plants for enthanol production?

[tricky lugnuts]

Yeah, looks like corn is the major crop used for ethanol in the U.S., but the DOE has calculated that it would be profitable to produce it from sugar cane and sugar beets - not sure about which stock offers the best yield . . .

An interesting article about the stuff on Wikipedia - apparently it's been around since the 1820s and years later Henry Ford advocated using it for cars, but oil finds in Pennsylvania and other places made oil the cheaper alternative at the time.

Also been reading that the E15 would be offered at pumps in ADDITION to the E10 - so drivers would have both options for now, it seems.

I just see that as the government forcing a move in that direction, and ultimately only E15 or greater at gas stations as more and more car companies build more and more "Flex Fuel" vehicles.

Apparently it's not time to start converting the Charger for E85 yet, but it kind of makes you wonder how much longer even our current, ethanol-diluted fuel will be available. 

[FLG]

One good this is with E85 we could run a much higher CR without pinging...thus more HP 

[nh_mopar_fan]

Click here

http://www.followthescience.org/take-action/

and let President Obama know your concerns about ethanol and ask him to get the science first, before giving EPA the approval for more ethanol in your gasoline.

It takes about the energy in half a gallon of ethanol to make one gallon of ethanol. In the 80s it actually took more than the energy in a gallon to make one gallon.

[Silver R/T]

I don't think Obama cares, he drives prius anyways. Never have and never will own a muscle car.

[nh_mopar_fan]

Maybe not but this crap will wreak havok on boats too.

[Mike DC]

That will increase the need for more corn. Which will jack the corn price. Which will up your food prices even more then they are now. Seems like almost everything in the store is connected to corn in some way. Made from it  came from something that ate it or the green plastic package was made with it.

IMHO anything that reduces the net total amount of corn we consume for food is an improvement, expensive or not.  Health reasons.  We're way over-corned.  

 

[68blue]

The ethanol lobby and farm state legislators drive this bus. Ethanol is a bone used to get these people on board of other legislation.

[elacruze]

The ethanol lobby and farm state legislators drive this bus. Ethanol is a bone used to get these people on board of other legislation.

Yup. Actually there are two (major) lobbies at work-the Farm lobby and the Oil lobby. We (taxpayers) have been subsidizing corn for decades.
Increasing Ethanol does two things-first sends money to corn, but the hidden $ goes to the oil companies. Increasing Ethanol content means the Oil industry gets more mileage out of each barrel, and further allows them to make 'motor fuel' (I refuse to call it gasoline anymore) out of crude oil components which are either less in demand or otherwise wasted, which wouldn't burn without the addition of the Ethanol.

Bastages.

[UFO]

One good this is with E85 we could run a much higher CR without pinging...thus more HP 

True ,but the catch is you will use a lot more it to make that hp than with gasoline.

[NGC414]

I just got this email from SEMA:
"URGENT REGULATORY ALERT (UPDATE)

EPA Denies E15 Waiver for Pre-2001 Cars, Permits Use in Newer Cars

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency confirmed that there is insufficient test data to permit E15 to be used in MY 2000 and older light-duty motor vehicles.  The SEMA Action Network (SAN) has consistently voiced concern that ethanol increases water formation which can then create formic acid and corrode metals, plastics and rubber.  While the SAN is pleased with the decision that older cars should not be fueled with E15, the association is disappointed that the EPA issued an E15 waiver for 2007 and newer vehicles.  The agency is still gathering data for the 2001-2006 vehicles.  The EPA's ruling responds to a request from the ethanol industry to raise the ethanol content in gasoline from 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15). 

Consumers will not see E15 at the pump any time soon.  The EPA must first approve regulations on how gas stations will label their pumps to avoid consumer misfueling.  This will take months.  Furthermore, there is no obligation that gasoline retailers market the fuel.  In fact, some retailers oppose the fuel over concern that they could be held liable if E15 damages a vehicle.  The gas stations and distributors may also need to invest in new storage tanks, hoses and other equipment.

The SAN will continue to oppose E15 until there are conclusive scientific findings that demonstrate that it will not harm automobiles of any age as a result of corrosion or other chemical incompatibilities.  SEMA represents thousands of companies that market products for these vehicles and, through its SEMA Action Network, millions of enthusiasts who buy and operate these automobiles.   Questions/comments may be directed to Steve McDonald at stevem@sema.org.   

[moparjohn]

I've already replaced two fuel pumps (hemi-style) on my Charger because it "eats" the rubber, and then it leaks

[elitecustombody]

I've already replaced two fuel pumps (hemi-style) on my Charger because it "eats" the rubber, and then it leaks

Yep, it will screw up everything ,fuel lines,injectors,pumps and anything that is not made to handle ethanol

[Charger440RDN]

I don't think Obama cares, he drives prius anyways. Never have and never will own a muscle car.

Actually you are incorrect, Obama owned a Chrysler 300 C which has a Hemi, he had to sell it to appease the tree huggers

http://newsbusters.org/node/12703

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/13/obama-swaps-300c-for-escape-hybrid/

[Khyron]

I don't think Obama cares, he drives prius anyways. Never have and never will own a muscle car.

Actually you are incorrect, Obama owned a Chrysler 300 C which has a Hemi, he had to sell it to appease the tree huggers

http://newsbusters.org/node/12703

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/13/obama-swaps-300c-for-escape-hybrid/

Sweet! Obama pimping in the 300 baby!

[FJMG]

One good this is with E85 we could run a much higher CR without pinging...thus more HP 

True ,but the catch is you will use a lot more it to make that hp than with gasoline.

Hence resulting in a drastic reduction in mpg.

  The SEMA Action Network (SAN) has consistently voiced concern that ethanol increases water formation which can then create formic acid and corrode metals, plastics and rubber. 

I wonder how many "no-start" scenarios from people in sub-zero climates can be attributed to this water freezing.

[bull]

I don't think Obama cares, he drives prius anyways. Never have and never will own a muscle car.

Actually you are incorrect, Obama owned a Chrysler 300 C which has a Hemi, he had to sell it to appease the tree huggers

http://newsbusters.org/node/12703

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/13/obama-swaps-300c-for-escape-hybrid/

You call that a muscle car?

[Charger440RDN]

I don't think Obama cares, he drives prius anyways. Never have and never will own a muscle car.

Actually you are incorrect, Obama owned a Chrysler 300 C which has a Hemi, he had to sell it to appease the tree huggers

http://newsbusters.org/node/12703

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/13/obama-swaps-300c-for-escape-hybrid/

You call that a muscle car?

I guess these days it is   well we do have the camaro, challenger and mustang too but those are pony cars.

[Mike DC]

Hence resulting in a drastic reduction in mpg.

It amounts to just watering down the gas.  Less oil consumed, less power produced, less MPG produced.  No different than just reducing the displacement of everyone's engine by that percentage. 

 

[bull]

So what all do we have to be concerned about on our engines when it comes to E85 (or E15, whatever)? Carbs, fuel pumps and hoses? The type of sealant used on the intake ports? What about the fuel sender? I'm getting ready to install the engine so now would be a good time to figure this stuff out I think.

[Tilar]

I don't think Obama cares, he drives prius anyways. Never have and never will own a muscle car.

Actually you are incorrect, Obama owned a Chrysler 300 C which has a Hemi, he had to sell it to appease the tree huggers

http://newsbusters.org/node/12703

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/13/obama-swaps-300c-for-escape-hybrid/

Sweet! Obama pimping in the 300 baby!

One more reason to never own one.

[FJMG]

It amounts to just watering down the gas.  Less oil consumed, less power produced, less MPG produced.  No different than just reducing the displacement of everyone's engine by that percentage. 

 

Exactly, Except that logic would imply that if you are consuming MORE fuel per mile then you are driving a vehicle with a LARGER engine and the operational cost increases.

[Silver R/T]

Even NASCAR is switching to ethanol
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101016/ap_on_sp_au_ra_ne/car_nascar_e15_fuel

[Mike DC]

Exactly, Except that logic would imply that if you are consuming MORE fuel per mile then you are driving a vehicle with a LARGER engine and the operational cost increases.

Yeah, I just mean aside from the mechanical effects on the motor.  The effect on fuel consumption to performance ratio is like shrinking the motors a bit. 

[HPP]

Yes, but it also provides a means to keep taxes from fuel revenue up since the ever increasing CAFE regulations are going to seriously impact how much tax each state gets gets to keep from fuel sales.

However, I think it is much simpler than all that. One arm of the Fed and a sizeable amount of the population wants renewable fuel. The other side wants increased mileage out of new vehicles. They arent talking to each other and don't realize their goals are at odds.

[FJMG]

One arm of the Fed and a sizeable amount of the population wants renewable fuel. The other side wants increased mileage out of new vehicles. They arent talking to each other and don't realize their goals are at odds.

I couldn't have said it better, thank you. I will only add that not only are they at odds but are in completely opposite directions.

[nh_mopar_fan]

Approved. Can't be bothered to wait for the FDA.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Said-to-Allow-Rise-in-bloomberg-701169662.html?x=0

[nh_mopar_fan]

If you think E15 is going to cause you some headaches, just wait until you see what the new B2 heat oil blend is going to do for you.

The heating industry have been watching and dealing with the ill-effects of the "Biofuel" for some time now. The EPA has now mandated all fuels will be the new "B2" blend as of June 2010. B2 is 20% ethanol and unless your system is designed to run on it you're in for a real headache this winter.

I love that article in my news yesterday, "What's in store for home fuel cost this winter? Prices expected to rise ~ but not by much". What they didn't say is you just got a major decrease in its caloric valve. The BTU content of #2 heating oil is 138K and the new B2 blend is reduced to 125K, so that's less BTU per gallon and it costs more too.

And you're thinking that not so bad, I can live with that... it will help the environment... But wait, it get even better; in 2013 they're moving you up to B3, which is 30% ethanol and that degrade the caloric value by another 10K.

If you love what ethanol has done for your gas engines, you're really going love what it will do for your heating system.

[chargerman67]

 

[bull]

Approved. Can't be bothered to wait for the FDA.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Said-to-Allow-Rise-in-bloomberg-701169662.html?x=0

Yup, that's how the US government rolls. Just plow ahead, regardless of whether or not you're on the right road, and call it progress.

If this debacle has a name it should be Cash For Clunkers 2. We didn't comply the first time around so now the government is going to junk our cars whether we like it or not. Is this country still a representative democracy? Because it seems like the people in charge of the US government these days just do whatever they want regardless of how it affects the people they allegedly represent.

[BigBlackDodge]

Approved. Can't be bothered to wait for the FDA.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Said-to-Allow-Rise-in-bloomberg-701169662.html?x=0

Yup, that's how the US government rolls. Just plow ahead, regardless of whether or not you're on the right road, and call it progress.

If this debacle has a name it should be Cash For Clunkers 2. We didn't comply the first time around so now the government is going to junk our cars whether we like it or not. Is this country still a representative democracy? Because it seems like the people in charge of the US government these days just do whatever they want regardless of how it affects the people they allegedly represent.

These days? That's been going on for over 200 years now.

BBD

[PocketThunder]

If you think E15 is going to cause you some headaches, just wait until you see what the new B2 heat oil blend is going to do for you.

The heating industry have been watching and dealing with the ill-effects of the "Biofuel" for some time now. The EPA has now mandated all fuels will be the new "B2" blend as of June 2010. B2 is 20% ethanol and unless your system is designed to run on it you're in for a real headache this winter.

I love that article in my news yesterday, "What's in store for home fuel cost this winter? Prices expected to rise ~ but not by much". What they didn't say is you just got a major decrease in its caloric valve. The BTU content of #2 heating oil is 138K and the new B2 blend is reduced to 125K, so that's less BTU per gallon and it costs more too.

And you're thinking that not so bad, I can live with that... it will help the environment... But wait, it get even better; in 2013 they're moving you up to B3, which is 30% ethanol and that degrade the caloric value by another 10K.

If you love what ethanol has done for your gas engines, you're really going love what it will do for your heating system.

Time to spend some money on geothermal heat system and get away from fuel oil altogether.  The savings in fuel oil cost will offset the geothermal system in 10-15 years.

[71ChallengeHer]

There is some blue stuff the parts store has to counteract the effects of Ethanol. It's suppose to cost 87 cents a tank. I'm gonna buy some next time I'm there. I'll let you guys know the name of it and if it works.

[NGC414]

If you think E15 is going to cause you some headaches, just wait until you see what the new B2 heat oil blend is going to do for you.

The heating industry have been watching and dealing with the ill-effects of the "Biofuel" for some time now. The EPA has now mandated all fuels will be the new "B2" blend as of June 2010. B2 is 20% ethanol and unless your system is designed to run on it you're in for a real headache this winter.

I love that article in my news yesterday, "What's in store for home fuel cost this winter? Prices expected to rise ~ but not by much". What they didn't say is you just got a major decrease in its caloric valve. The BTU content of #2 heating oil is 138K and the new B2 blend is reduced to 125K, so that's less BTU per gallon and it costs more too.

And you're thinking that not so bad, I can live with that... it will help the environment... But wait, it get even better; in 2013 they're moving you up to B3, which is 30% ethanol and that degrade the caloric value by another 10K.

If you love what ethanol has done for your gas engines, you're really going love what it will do for your heating system.

I just wanted to clearify, they cannot blend Diesel, heating oils or any fuel oils with Ethanol. This would cause an
explosion in use. Heating oils and fuel oils need to have a flash point over 130 degrees to be deemed safe. It is imperative that no gasoline or ethanol ever gets into a fuel oil batch. I think the blend you are talking about is the new bio-deisel blend wich will be made from oil seed crops such as canola, or from waste oil and grease.

[NGC414]

I worked for a large oil company for about 10 years before starting my own business. They started the E85 blends just before I left the company. Untill that point we only had a few blend codes with 10% ethanol. Most guys would avoid going to the stations that sold 10% blends.
We were allowed plus or minus once percent of error on the 10% blend. If an off spec batch got out I have had to pump off trucks, call to have stations shut down until they could correct the batch in the middle of the night. Its strange to me that now these high blends of ethanol are ok.
If you ever drive by a petroleum terminal and look at the large storage tanks, look for a tank that has a black stained ring around the top. It almost looks like smoke or carbon stains. Thats the ethanol tank. For some reason a fungus grows on the tank and its impossible to keep off.