re-bodies, re-stamps, and such.

[twilt]

a couple of months ago i was talking to the owner of a non mopar specific "generic"  resto facility. during the converstion i posed a question about what would be done to a "rare" numbers matching car needing a core support replaced. would the numbers from the damaged one be grafted into the replacement, would the
replacement be re-stamped, or would it be replaced with no "numbers fudging" The answer i got kind of surprised me. I was basically told that without question the core support would be re-stamped, "that all resto facilities have stamps and do it all the time"  later on i was thinking "where
does it stop?" If re-stamping the core was okay, would the same person feel that re-stamping the whole car to be okay?

It would seem to me that if this is considered "okay" or "standard procedure" that there is probably a lot more of this stuff that goes on than i would have thought. If one has clear paperwork for the "rare" car, can everything else can be replicated and or restamped?

outside of thorough documentation, how do the buyers of super rare cars really know what they are buying is legit  ?

[Ghoste]

It goes on at the resto places more than many think.  There is just too much money involved for it to not happen and as long as the guys paying the bills don't know or don't care it will continue.
As for knowing what they buy is legit, I don't think even the great Galen Govier can be 100% certain every time.  You just take your chances.
That's why I like my old wreck.  I get to drive it all the time and never worry about following it's value on some imaginary Dow-Jones old car stock ticker.

[Blown70]

Well I would say it HAPPENS a lot.  I was speaking to a person on the phone and we had started to speak about car.  He found a AAR Cuda an he states heck I just want to REBODY the thing all I need is the NUMBERS..........

[hemihead]

It's no wonder that so many rare cars still exist after 30 or 40 years.All you need to make big money is the right numbers , not even the car matters.

[Ghoste]

I know of one 70 Hemi Cuda that was purchased in an envelope.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows about cars like this.

[BigBlockSam]

you see rare cars on ebay and there's nothing left of the car but the seller says he has all the number parts. they sell for big bucks. you know somebodies gonna rebody a car. i collect guitars and there are alot of fakes out there.the rule i use is , if a fake can get past me, it's gonna get past 95% of most people. i guess the same goes for cars. although i'm not an expert on mopars. just fender guitars. Rene

[Chris G.]

I know of one 70 Hemi Cuda that was purchased in an envelope.   I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows about cars like this.

You're not the only one by far. Re-bodies happen all the time, and I believe it is illegal throughout the country and maybe elsewhere as well?

Last year in Carlisle, I was going through some parts and came across a '70 door with the VIN sticker still on it. I took a pic (anything for the registry) and the guy got a little defensive. He was asking why I needed a pic, blah blah blah. I forgot what I said, but he went on to tell me he had all the goodies (VIN, FenderTag, etc.) in storage and he would sell them. This is one small story in the evergrowing world of potential re-body cars.   

[Silver R/T]

that seems to be wrong I know

[65post]

I bought a complete but heavily rusted 70 FM3  duster 340 4 speed car a while back and got another rustfree body to fix it.At first I thought it would be much faster to REBODY the car but then I said to my self this wouldn`t be the same car.And if I sold it what would I tell the buyer? It`s been restored ! Then I was going to cut up the rustfree one and put all the metal on the rusty FM3 car.( frame rails - floor - cowl - 1/4s and so on.) Then it came to me.Maybe when a car DIES it should be laid to rest.

[BigBlackDodge]

Tampering with VIN's is illegal and considered fraud!


BBD

[Ghoste]

Absolutely, and it's a topic that comes up on old car forums frequently.  There are some who feel that it's okay if they are just doing it to "save" a car and all the numbers and equipment are transferred over.  There are some who feel that laws regarding vins and the "hidden" numbers on a car's body are strictly there to thwart thieves and chop shops.
Regardless of your feelings as to the ethics around it, the irrefutable fact is that it's illegal.  It's also an irrefutable fact that it is going on all over the place right now and isn't likely to go away and there are some of us on this board who have or are or advocate doing it.  There are also some of us on this board who probably and unknowingly own rebodied or restamped cars.

[bull]

Maybe I don't fully understand the topic but I don't really have a problem with rebody work as much as I do with engine stamps or VIN manipulation. I can see how the practice could be abused but if I had to replace the radiator core in my Charger due to, say, prior collision damage I really wouldn't have much problem phonying up a "correct" stamp on the sheetmetal or cutting the chunk out that has the correct number and welding it in place on the new one. I wouldn't do it to decieve anyone or make my car more than it is but it is a restoration so why should I be punished because a portion of the car that just happens to have a number reeds replaced? I guess we're very fortunate they didn't stamp body numbers on the lower quarter panels aren't we? I have a friend who restored a '70 'Cuda and restamped the engine to match, but he was sure to tell the buyer that he restamped the engine. But now it's up to that guy to be honest with the next guy about the engine stamp. My 383 Charger doesn't even have an engine stamp so can I prove mine is any more legit than his?

Here's my thing: if you know your car is legit, what does it really hurt to make the car whole again body wise? I personally would have a problem changing any number on a car without telling a potential buyer, but if you're not trying to jip someone what's the problem?

[ck1]

makes me glad I have a plain base model charger and I don't have to worry about all that horse $^%&#@*............I'm sure the unrestored survivors are about the only ones you could trust now hearing that...........but I won't be in the market for the over priced, "for me", cars like these anyway in my life time.....

[Blown70]

Well I like to drive them.... Personally I hate see a car go to waste.  However, not sure swapping numbers is correct to do.... She just was not BORN that way.

I would rather have a CLONE of most of the expensive cars as I am not a COLLECTOR.   Now Jay Leno may care when he spends $1million on a car.  I would rather have a HEMI close or better yet and AAR clone.

Tom

[71charger_fan]

It seems like semantics to me. You read about some of these "back from the dead" cars in the magazines. They've replaced quarters, fenders, doors, floors, trunk floors and it's a restoration. Splice what little was saved from the high value car into a base model and it's a rebody. Same end result. One is applauded, one is held up to scorn and ridicule. What, in the final analysis, is the difference?

[Ghoste]

So what happens if you have saved for years and years to buy your dream car and you check it thoroughly and even pay some "Guru" to look at it.  It seems legit so you pay a lot of money for the car.  More than you should, but you have always wanted one and sacrificed to get there and now it's yours.  One year later, you find out that you actually bought an entry level version of the car that was dragged out of the swamp and had the numbers all skillfully replaced.  An extreme example but imagine how you would feel for a moment nonetheless.

[dayclona]

As for knowing what they buy is legit, I don't think even the great Galen Govier can be 100% certain every time.   You just take your chances.

nothing new! it's been going on for decades, back when money was to be made off vettes, then shelbys, now mopars and their parts! restampings, clonings for deceit/ profitt, rebodies, etc, etc........even the "guru" so-called "documentation".......How bout that B5 , 71 cuda vert that Galen's still choking on!...missed that one!.....and a few others!.......I was "privy" to watch Galen "document" a cuda recently,......all I'll say is........FOOLS will be parted with their money!...........I'll stick to cloning cars!, at least that way I know their made cars!.............................Mike G./DAYCLONA Enterprises

[472 R/T SE]

Just curious...does our guru claim his '68 Hemi Coronet is all #'s?  The car has been back halved, from what I understand he doesn't like to talk about it.

[Ghoste]

Of course, Mike, you don't claim to make anything but clones and have actually taken the lead in producing valuable cars which never even existed to begin with.

[Old Moparz]

I always like this argument.  

There's one important clarification to the term "rebody"   that I'd like to try to make. Some people state that when you replace most of the car with parts from another car, say more than 50%, it becomes a rebody.   Others state when the VIN tags are removed from one car, & put on another car, like a rotbox Hemi & a mint 318 car, that's a rebody.   I feel the later is what most consider a rebody,   & the first is just massive amounts of body repair. Taking tags & I.D. from one car & placing it on another, no matter whether you own both cars legally or not, is illegal to do.

My guess, (not a longshot either) is that the laws were likely created because some people actually steal cars. It's also likely that the laws were intended for newer vehicles & not classics. Chop shops would get stolen cars & part them, or thieves would re-tag a stolen car with a car that wasn't stolen to make it a "legal" vehicle. Now that classics are being restored, there is a different problem. Some of these cars have had insane values put on them by people who can afford to do so. Whether that's right or wrong is irrelevant, but now a fraudulent high dollar car is more desirable to create by swapping tags to sell for the most profit.

I'll agree that there are some people who have absolutely no intention to swap tags with the intent to commit fraud. All they want to do is fix a rare car for themselves, but it doesn't matter, it's illegal. If your car needs another car, then so do you. It may not be the same, but if you have a dog that's 22 years old, it's deaf, it can't walk because it has two legs that are arthritic, one eye is blind, one eye sees shadows, it has a bad heart & won't eat, would you take it to the vet to have a kidney transplant? I kind of doubt it.

Having clarified my own definition, I'll say that there is no such thing as a rebody   at all. It's just a term created by someone who illegally swapped tags & didn't want it to sound   illegal.

[Ghoste]

OM, your last paragraph pretty much sums up the whole issue.

[jaak]

What if you rebody a 440 rt on another 440 rt? would that be ok??   Thats eccentially what I'm doing, let me explain this as quick as I can, I bought my first rt, was a complete car, floors, trunk, rear frame rails looked like a hlpag car (seriously) but it had some of the nicest used parts I have ever seen on a project, all glass, trim, interior parts, even the fenders, doors, and hood was in excellent shape, Just as I was about ready to order every piece of repro-sheet metal thats available and making the one's that aren't, I ran into a rock solid rolling shell. At first my intention was to cut everything off the roller (witch is an rt also, I have the fendertag somewhere) and weld on Car#1, I thought its stupid to do that my reasoning was I want to build the car I want anyway..... The motor/tranny don't match anyway. So you see I had to use the dash with VIN out of car#1, but I didn't change core numbers or anything, heck I'm not trying to crook anyone, thats why I 'm telling you about it, heck even when I'm long gone and some one buys this car they will see different numbers and know somethings up, I want be able to give an explanation then, lol, but no one should get burned on it. Another point I wanted to make, I live in Alabama, Ala. and Georgia are about the 2 worst states when it comes to old cars... before I even started this project I call the DMV and ask "hey I got a 69 Charger here with 2 VIN #'s, what do I need to do to register it?"   She simply told me to pick one of them   to buy a tag.   I just want a super cool driver/local show car, the color, options, ect. That I want on it.


But let me clarify I only used the VIN attached to dash, I did not change any other numbers. I did not get a VIN with car # 2

also btw... I have the tag off #2 in a box of junk some where in the shop, and tag 1 is rusted, I don't even plan on putting a fender tag back on it.

[Blakcharger440]

Old Moparz I think you got it right in your first full paragraph!
Taking the VIN and body tags from one car and literally putting them on another vehicle is fraudulent and illegal.
Now scavenging parts from the donor car and adding them to the car you are actually "restoring" is OK in my book as probably 99% of the mopars have had this done to them at some point.

And you really cant trust "survivor" cars either as some of them arent what they are presented to be either.

[twilt]

so what are others thoughts about restamping a replacement core support to match the rest of the car.( i also wonder if this is legal -i doubt it is)    Bull seems to think its okay and has made his case. i think that its wrong as it would be a false  indicator that the panel is original. while i almost bought Bulls case on restamping the core...... lets take it one step further...    if a hemi car gets wacked front and back and crushed like an accordion is it okay to replace the core support, back half it with a donor 318 car and restamp the front and rear?   anybody know where i could find vin plate, fender tags, and title for one of the few 72 440 6pk cars? j/k 

[twilt]

What if you rebody a 440 rt on another 440 rt? would that be ok??  Thats eccentially what I'm doing, let me explain this as quick as I can, I bought my first rt, was a complete car, floors, trunk, rear frame rails looked like a hlpag car (seriously) but it had some of the nicest used parts I have ever seen on a project, all glass, trim, interior parts, even the fenders, doors, and hood was in excellent shape, Just as I was about ready to order every piece of repro-sheet metal thats available and making the one's that aren't, I ran into a rock solid rolling shell. At first my intention was to cut everything off the roller (witch is an rt also, I have the fendertag somewhere) and weld on Car#1, I thought its stupid to do that my reasoning was I want to build the car I want anyway..... The motor/tranny don't match anyway. So you see I had to use the dash with VIN out of car#1, but I didn't change core numbers or anything, heck I'm not trying to crook anyone, thats why I 'm telling you about it, heck even when I'm long gone and some one buys this car they will see different numbers and know somethings up, I want be able to give an explanation then, lol, but no one should get burned on it. Another point I wanted to make, I live in Alabama, Ala. and Georgia are about the 2 worst states when it comes to old cars... before I even started this project I call the DMV and ask "hey I got a 69 Charger here with 2 VIN #'s, what do I need to do to register it?"  She simply told me to pick one of them  to buy a tag.  I just want a super cool driver/local show car, the color, options, ect. That I want on it.


But let me clarify I only used the VIN attached to dash, I did not change any other numbers. I did not get a VIN with car # 2

also btw... I have the tag off #2 in a box of junk some where in the shop, and tag 1 is rusted, I don't even plan on putting a fender tag back on it.

i can fully understand why you would do that. not too sure that it is legal though-probably not. . if i had done that, i`d probably not publicly admit to it regardless of intent. with the numbers mix, you  might have a hard time selling the car for a good price  if that ever  became necessary.

[Old Moparz]

I don't see any legitimate reasons to stamp replacement parts, blocks, or fender tags with the VIN. Even repro broadcast sheets & door stickers can give documentation to a bogus car. The only reason to do it is to increase the car's authenticity, which in turn increases it's value. If someone is a sincere hobbyist who loves the car for what it is, it shouldn't matter what number is on the replacement part. More importantly, the part should be installed correctly making the repair on the car itself better.

The only tag that the DMV is interested in is the dash tag. That tag must match the title, or the transferable registration (ownership papers). If you don't have a dash VIN tag, I'm almost sure all states issue their own. Yes, I know it's a PITA & that a state issued tag will decrease the value, but that's my point. Which will hurt the rare car's value more, a state issued tag on a true, legit, Hemi car, or a Hemi tag swapped to a 318 car that turns out to be a fake?

For me personally, it isn't about what the dash VIN states that makes me happy. Of the 6 cars I have currently, only one is a true HP car. It's a 1970 383 Road Runner, with an 11:1 440 in it. My '68 Charger was originally a 383-2V car, but that will also get a 440 between the fenders that I've been saving. The '71 Scamp, the '68 Coronet ragtop & the '69 Satellite ragtop all have 318's that will stay put. The 71 Barracuda had a 318, but now has a 400-4V in it. All the dash tags will stay put.

I know to some it's a challenge making sure the survivor it authentic, or that they have 1 of 3 made a certain color with a certain option. Others enjoy restoring crayon marks on the underside, or getting date coded parts that are correct or NOS. That's cool, but not for me. I won't lie, I'd love to have a genuine, Hemi, ragtop, but that isn't happening, even if I was handed one for free in an envelope. I'd rather have a crate Hemi in my 318 dash VIN Satellite.

[hotrod98]

A guy called me a few weeks ago at the shop and wanted to sell me a complete running 69 runner that was originally a 383 4-speed and now had a 440 automatic in it. He said that it was a good running nice solid car and he only wanted $2600 for it, but there was a catch. While he had a clear title in his name and all of the stamped numbers around the car matched the title, the vin plate had been stolen. He had removed the dash while working on the car and someone stole the entire dash. He had to find a replacement dash, but now had no vin plate. I told him that I already had too many cars and wasn't really interested in it. I told him that his best bet was to sell it to someone to build a racecar out of since it could never be put back on the road legally. I thought for a minute about buying it and parting it out so that other cars could live, but decided that I didn't have time to mess with it and it would be better off ending up as a racecar than a useless hull. It's a shame that the car is now almost worthless as far as the law is concerned. Whenever I remove a dash while restoring a car whether it be mine or a customer's, the vin plate goes into my safe until time to re-attach it.

[Blakcharger440]

What? I never remove any VIN tags from the dashes of any of the cars that I am fixing up...but thats just me.
I dont think those tags were meant to be fooled with or tampered with.
What I do when dissassembling a car is I put the whole dash assembly out of the way in a safe place until I am ready for it but the VIN tag never comes off.

[hemihead]

I am the same. I never mess with any VIN numbers,anywhere on the car.

[hotrod98]

How many cars have you restored where the dash is perfect? When you send a dash to Just Dashes, it better not have the vin plate on it. You may never see it again. When I say resto, I don't mean sand and paint the exterior and recover the seats. I mean a full blown resto. On pre 68 cars the vin plate is on the hinge pillar. I don't like to paint around the tag. It looks too cheezy. I keep the correct rivets to re-attach the vin plates.
You guys do it your way and the resto shops will do it the correct way.

[Blown70]

What? I never remove any VIN tags from the dashes of any of the cars that I am fixing up...but thats just me.
I dont think those tags were meant to be fooled with or tampered with.
What I do when dissassembling a car is I put the whole dash assembly out of the way in a safe place until I am ready for it but the VIN tag never comes off.

Well I will have to on the car I am working on to paint the dash... Trust me it needs to come off to paint... However.... I have not Rad support, trunk rail etc.  They are gone.  Heavy Modified car.

Tom

[BigBlackDodge]

Interesting read.

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

I searched 'VIN laws' and this popped up. I'm not surfing on Ford sites! Honestly!!!!!


BBD

[rich4406bbl]

The post by Big Black Dodge seems to have found all the right info. Basically it seems that once the VIN is affixed by the original manufacturer to a car or part that's it. Though it may be easier to move the numbers from a totally destroyed hemi car to a good donor because it requires less repair, it is ILLEGAL and if the car is then sold it may be considered FRAUD or THEFT BY DECEPTION. I'll leave it at this point. Supposed you have 2 identical hemi chargers. One is a documented numbers matching original that has been restored and the other is EXACTLY the same but has been re-bodied (or whatever you want to call it). Which one are you going to pay top dollar for and feel safer buying??

[Old Moparz]

Interesting read.

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

I searched 'VIN laws' and this popped up. I'm not surfing on Ford sites! Honestly!!!!!


BBD

That linked page seems to be pretty clear about the legalities. I recall someone on Moparts stating that even when a body shop is doing repairs to the area of a vehicle where the VIN tag is, it's not as simple as removing, repairing & reinstalling it. There is a procedure to follow based on DMV & the state laws. I don't have any problem with most of my own cars since there is no need to remove a VIN plate to restore the dash. The only car I'm concerned with is my '71 Barracuda where the dash pad is the whole dash.

I've been told that Just Dashes is required to destroy & dispose of any VIN plate still attached when they get a pad to restore. At some point I'll have my dash redone, but hopefully by then I'll have that part sorted out. Like I stated earlier, it's a 318 car & the tag reflects that. I don't give a rat's ass what the tag says the car is, as long as I have the title that matches it & it's the car I like. I'd rather fix & modify the 318 Barracuda I have since it's a solid platform than try to resurrect some Hemi cowl.

[hotrod98]

If you pull your vin plate and reattach it later during a restoration, I don't think the cops are going to show up at your door to arrest you.
Don't ask, don't tell and don't mix up the vin plates.

[73dodge]

Okay let me throw out this scenario for the sake of arguement .

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car. 

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

But

The number stamped on the block is just the last 5 digits of the VIN which is the sequence number of the car. The numbers stamped on the body such as the core support is also the last 5 digits on the VIN. Which brings me back to my point why is it legal to replace the engine and not legal to replace the body of a car?

[Ghoste]

That number is to prevent car theft, not to register your vehicle.  That being said, at it's very strictest interpretation of the law, you are likely correct.  Warranty blocks came with the area unstamped presumably for the dealer to stamp the number after the other one went back to Chrysler.  But ask anyone who thought they bought a numbers matching engine only to discover a restamped block how they feel about any of this.

[BigBlockSam]

i think if your removing the tag to restore the dash and then reinstalling it, your ok. its not fraud.

[Ghoste]

Unless you're a car hating Washington lobbyist. 

[HeavyFuel]

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car.  

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

What are you smokin?

"VIN, an acronym for "vehicle identification number," is usually followed by "number," a redundancy hallowed by custom. It's a string of 17 digits and letters posted on the driver's side dashboard, where it can be seen from outside the car. Each VIN number is unique and contains a code that gives considerable information about the vehicle, including country of origin, manufacturer, and model year. The VIN system in its current form has been in use since the 1981 model year."

What you are talking about is having a #'s matching engine, which does have something to do with the VIN, but is not really what this thread is getting at.  You can swap out hundreds of parts on a car, including the entire drivetrain, and the VIN is totally uneffected.  The resale is, but that is another story.

 

[hotrod98]

This is the wrong forum to be talking about 17 digit vin's. You need to be over on the 06 Charger forum.

[andy74]

This is the wrong forum to be talking about 17 digit vin's. You need to be over on the 06 Charger forum.

:nana:man thats a good one!my VIN only has 13 digits but its a 72

[73dodge]

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car. 

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

What are you smokin?

"VIN, an acronym for "vehicle identification number," is usually followed by "number," a redundancy hallowed by custom. It's a string of 17 digits and letters posted on the driver's side dashboard, where it can be seen from outside the car. Each VIN number is unique and contains a code that gives considerable information about the vehicle, including country of origin, manufacturer, and model year. The VIN system in its current form has been in use since the 1981 model year."

What you are talking about is having a #'s matching engine, which does have something to do with the VIN, but is not really what this thread is getting at.  You can swap out hundreds of parts on a car, including the entire drivetrain, and the VIN is totally uneffected.  The resale is, but that is another story.
 

The VIN on the dash has a 5 digit sequence code at the end showing what number car was produced in line. They stamped that number on the engine block the radiator core support and trunk lip.

If I understand this thread correctly a rebody would take the VIN tag from the DASH of one car and swap it to another car that it did not come on, basically trying to duplicate that car with a car that it was not.

If it is illegal to swap dash tags because that would be changing the ID of the car then so would swapping engines. Then if you can swap an engine why not the core support? Why not grind the numbers off the engine pad and restamp it with the correct VIN?

The only full VIN numbers are on the dash and a sticker on the drivers side door if you have to change a drivers side door and peel the sticker off and put it on another car is that illegal too?

Because swapping an engine and swapping a body would be the same to me, same numbers are being changed. The 5 digit numbers on the engine can be changed without running afoul of the law then why not changing the 5 digit numbers on a body shell???

[hotrod98]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

[twilt]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

  that was 2 funny. 

[Blakcharger440]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

Now thats funny!   

[Troy]

Part of the VIN is stamped on the engine block, all you guys that have replaced engines with ones taken from other cars and swapped them in your cars are guilty of changing VINS on your car. So logically you need to take out the replacment engine and put the numbers matching block back in for it to be a legal car.

Why should be replacing the engine any less illegal than replacing the VIN on a donor body? Just because an engine is easily removed does not make it legal to replace that engine with something better.

I may be mistaken here so someone please correct me on this if I am wrong.

What are you smokin?

"VIN, an acronym for "vehicle identification number," is usually followed by "number," a redundancy hallowed by custom. It's a string of 17 digits and letters posted on the driver's side dashboard, where it can be seen from outside the car. Each VIN number is unique and contains a code that gives considerable information about the vehicle, including country of origin, manufacturer, and model year. The VIN system in its current form has been in use since the 1981 model year."

What you are talking about is having a #'s matching engine, which does have something to do with the VIN, but is not really what this thread is getting at. You can swap out hundreds of parts on a car, including the entire drivetrain, and the VIN is totally uneffected. The resale is, but that is another story.

The VIN on the dash has a 5 digit sequence code at the end showing what number car was produced in line. They stamped that number on the engine block the radiator core support and trunk lip.

If I understand this thread correctly a rebody would take the VIN tag from the DASH of one car and swap it to another car that it did not come on, basically trying to duplicate that car with a car that it was not.

If it is illegal to swap dash tags because that would be changing the ID of the car then so would swapping engines. Then if you can swap an engine why not the core support? Why not grind the numbers off the engine pad and restamp it with the correct VIN?

The only full VIN numbers are on the dash and a sticker on the drivers side door if you have to change a drivers side door and peel the sticker off and put it on another car is that illegal too?

Because swapping an engine and swapping a body would be the same to me, same numbers are being changed. The 5 digit numbers on the engine can be changed without running afoul of the law then why not changing the 5 digit numbers on a body shell???

Well, according to the law, you are replacing parts when installing an engine or trans - you are NOT changing numbers. If you bought a factory replacement block for your original Hemi car and then stamped some numbers on it to match your VIN then that is illegal. The VIN (the actual tag) is the primary source of identification for a vehicle and is the main thing that is specifically mentioned in the laws of nearly every state. The engine is NOT used to identify the car at all so there certainly is no comparison between swapping the two. Many engines weren't even stamped so how would one possibly identify the car by only inspecting the block? Many engines that actually got a VIN stamped on them had the entire VIN - not a partial but they still cannot be used to identify a vehicle.

Cars in 68 and earlier had the VON stamped on the body panels - not the VIN. Stamping/copying/recreating numbers to match the VIN is also illegal since those numbers would not have existed in the first place. Most people who are swapping numbers are at the very least only doing it to raise the value of an less expensive automobile and at most trying to cover up automobile theft. Neither is being honest with future owners of the car. Money is the reason behind it every time (can anyone honestly say it isn't?).

As for what is illegal - read the laws. It's pointless to ask for opinions here when the law clearly states what is illegal and what isn't. I had a really good post of all of the laws I could find a while back. I'll see if I can dig it up. Suffice it to say that ANY tampering with the VIN on the car is a felony in most states. The only people whose opinions matter are the arresting officer, the prosecuting attorney, and the judge.

FYI - there's usually more than 5 numbers on partial stampings (usually 8 ).

Troy

[HeavyFuel]

So, if you have an accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the rear half of the car and two years later, you have another accident and the insurance company has the body shop replace the front half of the car, is it the same car?
It's kind of like the guy that claims to own the original hatchet that George Washington used to cut down the cherry tree. Sure, he's changed the handle a few times and the head twice, but it's the same hatchet.

You finally understand.. 

If the head of the hatchet had the VIN on it....

Explain it to 73dodge.

[694spdRT]

I have had to deal with the VIN# senario on a few salvage title vehicles we have fixed up through the years. In our state when a salvage title vehicle is repaired you must have it reinspected and retitled before it is driven again. The new title will be marked prior salvage.

You are required to take pictures before and after the repairs. Any used parts must be documented with the VIN # from the vehicle they came from and provided to the state inspector before a new title will be granted. I think if new parts are used you just need a receipt for purchase.

I realize that a lot of this is to prevent the chop shop issues but, IMO prior salvage vehicles that are repaired in our state are often in better condition than some of the "clear" title vehicles that have been repaired without any inspection before going back out on the road. There is a "clear" titled '97 Camaro SS running around town that had to be backhalved using a V6 body when it nearly new.....think there will be any record of that in 20 more years.