FUEL SYSTEM GHOST " UPDATE "

[Ghoste]

Or a new home at a lower altitude.

[Steve P.]

Hahahahaha...... I keep trying to get him to move to sunny Florida........  We have 93 octane here and sit at sea level....  His motor would go like a raped ape and be happy......  Then again it would have to put up with humidity.......     And LOVE BUGS..   And mosquitoes.

[rt green]

but, keep this in mind, the make shift return line will keep cool gas in system at all times. try mocking up the system the way you have it with the gas can with the clear line. if you do have a vapor lock, you will be able to see it. if you cant seee it, its in the carb.  one of thoese old mopar flat heat shields under the carb might work.

[Steve P.]

You're right Bruce. I do believe it's in the carb because if Mike squeezes the rubber line just before the fuel feeder to the carb the pressure jumps up.  Now keep in mind the car is idling so it's using some gas. Not  that much!! While the line is pinched the fuel in the sight glasses doesn't drop. It's only for an instant that he squeezes it. Not very scientific.....

[rt green]

rubber line..................what size?

[Steve P.]

3/8ths. Not to worry. It is new and short. Only used to run from the regulator to the feed line.

Don't get any funny ideas!!

PS. It has also been changed. Before that was brand spanking new braided line. We have tried very hard to NOT leave any rock unturned.....

[rt green]

ok.i was going to sugest 5\16 line from the pump on up, but ok, i'll leave you guys alone. i was just trying to help.   best of luck,  bruce

[Steve P.]

ok.i was going to suggest 5\16 line from the pump on up, but ok, I'll leave you guys alone. i was just trying to help.   best of luck,  Bruce

OK, now you have my ?? ?? mind...... Why 5/6" from the pump to the carb?? I have seen this and wondered why it was done... It would move the gas faster and the gas would have less time to collect heat. I get that. I have never seen a double feed line made up of 5/16 though!! And the tests we have done bypassing everything we can on the car includes everything up to the duel feeder line at the carb.

I tried to reach Mike. He must have gone out without his phone..

[rt green]

ok. the reason you run 3/8 fuel line is for volume to the pump. you run the 5/16 from the pump to the carb for pressure. [mech pump]. the pump will have enough volume with the 3/8 line, but with the 5/16 line to carb, you will keep the pressure up.

[Steve P.]

I don't get it. Unless you have a leak or are using allot of fuel, (or have fuel boiling away), how does the size of the line being 1/16 smaller keep the pressure up?

We are talking about a Holley blue pump at idle. Actually many pumps including a carter street pump. All are more than capable of much more than idle on any car..

Bruce, I am not trying to be a smart ass. Not by a long shot. If I am missing something please slap me around until I get it.. This has been driving me nuts for a while now.. Hardest for me is that I am in Florida and Mike is in Vegas. I won't be there for 2 more months. His list of stuff for us to do is pretty long now.. 3 of our days will be at Mopars At The Strip. I was hoping the Charger would be our ride this year.. Still am!!

[rt green]

off the side here, i assume you have, or have rigged it up simalr, but have you tryed rumming the car with the gas cap off? i assume you had this vented situation when you used the gas can.

[Steve P.]

Oh yeah, That was way back in the beginning. Don't stop thinking though.. We need all the Q&A we can get.   It's driving us to drink... Ok ,,, we drink anyway! 

[rt green]

let me ask you this,    where is the fuel pump located?

[Steve P.]

The electric Holley Blue pump that is being used now is located just ahead of the axle at the right frame rail. New tank. New 3/8" sender. new 3/8" aluminum fuel line installed in the factory position up to the front.

BUT........

Mike has tested with many other pumps mounted, laying on the ground, mechanical on the engine, you name it. Even completely separate systems from the car.. (gas can with it's own pump and lines).  All with the same results... Different regulators, carbs, fuel pressure gauges, lines, hoses, elbows in, elbows out, richened up the carb, 1" phenolic spacer, kicked the dog in the nuts, did a smoker in front of the police station.. You name it.... Ok, he didn't kick the dog..  You get the picture...

[rt green]

you said in the begining, the bowls run dry. do they make a larger needle and seat set up for that carb? is there a ground on the electric choke on the carb? is it grounded? sorry, but years of auto  mechanics, ive seen some strnge shit.      how is your gas can set up wired?

[Steve P.]

No choke at all.. Not even a choke horn. It's a BG 750 Demon..

The bowls run dry when the regulator is set to 6.5 lbs cold. Even more than that!!


The gas can is set up just as it would be on a car, only it is set away from any heat source. 5 gallon can of 91 octane with a pick up tube and hose to a electric Holley blue pump, through a regulator to the feeder "T" to the carb.    Same results..

[rt green]

does the gas can pump get hot?

[Steve P.]

No the pump stayed cool. 

[rt green]

ok. i dug some old mopar stuff out, and they claim you can go up to HALF INCH fuel line. they recomended this for modified engines.  i don't know, seems you have enough used parts laying around to try anything. fact is, you've tried everything. this kind of a way out there idea, but, you've gone to the extreme on the logical end, it time you tried something crazy. thing is, some backwoods hick from god knows where,could rig up something so rediculous and stupid and totally non logical, and the f##cken thing would run tens, and run good at 125 degrees! screw it, run a make shift half inch fuel line all the way from pump to carb and see what happens!!  pulling my hair out to.     bruce

[beenaround]

more thoughts,is the regulator installed in the correct direction??? it does have a flow direction.did he try the race gas yet?? also can mike get access to an infared themometer? because if its vapor lock you can "shoot" the daul feed line to see how hot its getting.

[Steve P.]

Update ::

Mike has put a return line in place and changed the feeder lines so that the fuel is being regulated after the carb bowls and over 6.5 is going back to the tank. This is set up the way BG shows it on their web site.

Same results.

No race fuel yet. The place he was able to get it before no longer sells it.. 

Each regulator that has ben put in line HAS been set up correctly..

I saw pics. of his thermo/point and shoot/meter. It's hard to determin exactly, but it looks like the fuel "T" on the forward bowl is 81*. 

[Steve P.]

Here's the Feb. 23, update. Mike has made some changes and is making some headway.  First let me say Thank you to all that have been helping with this problem. Tossing it around is a great way to find faults, problems and mistakes.

Well here is the last changes to the fuel system. Mike rerouted the fuel lines to go along the front frame rail to the removable tin plate ahead of the upper controll arm where it now enters the engine compartment and goes up to the regulator. It is a bypass regulator and the bypass line drops out of it and runs right back out and along the feed line back to the tank.
In the area of the collector he insulated both lines heavily as that area was showing high heat on his pyrometer. I believe this is the area that was the main culprit.

One very major change was made that we feel is really HUGE. He removed the liquid filled fuel pressure gauge and put a standard fuel pressure gauge on in it's place. When I was discussing the problem with the good folks at BG, I was told that the liquid filled gauges lie like hell when they get warm.  OK, that could explain the pressure on the gauge, but,,, not the lack of fuel in the bowls.

He is using  a Holley BLUE pump with the reg. set at 7psi. Drove the car for the longest cruise yet with this motor checking fuel pressure every here and there. 7 psi every time and 7 psi after an hour of driving when he returned home. Mike is one happy camper..

It is only Februaryand still rather cool for Vegas, but,,, I think this GHOST has been put to rest. I sure hope so!!

He will do more testing and playing and then if all goes well everything will have to be set in a more permanent, showy and make SURE it's safe way, But for now he is one very happy MOPAR guy..

[firefighter3931]

Wow, that's excellent news Steve !  Is Mike still running the Demon ? He pm'd me for a holley carb recommendation...just wondering if he went that route ?

Ron

[Steve P.]

Hey Ron. Yes, he is still running the Demon. He had a problem with the fuel inlet threads as one style fittings he used caused some galling, but he was able to tap the bowls ok and is back in business. You know after running Holley carbs for years I was shocked when he bought the first BG. Then he bought another. I think he would have more money in his pocket if he would have stayed with Holley. Just screwing with fittings alone is exhausting...

Man was it nice to hear HAPPY in his voice again..... I can't wait to hear from him tonight...

Just for S & G, what Holley do you like for his set up??

[firefighter3931]

Hey Ron. Yes, he is still running the Demon. He had a problem with the fuel inlet threads as one style fittings he used caused some galling, but he was able to tap the bowls ok and is back in business. You know after running Holley carbs for years I was shocked when he bought the first BG. Then he bought another. I think he would have more money in his pocket if he would have stayed with Holley. Just screwing with fittings alone is exhausting...

Man was it nice to hear HAPPY in his voice again..... I can't wait to hear from him tonight...

Just for S & G, what Holley do you like for his set up??

I recomended the 830dp with annular boosters. Nice carb for $400.00 that would compliment the build very well.

The last BG i messed with had the same issues. Those inlet fittings suck. Teflon tape and it still leaked !!! The threads weren't even galled up ! Replaced all the bowl haskets, inlet fitting washers etc...and it still leaked. It wasn't a big leak either....just a drop here and there that trickled down and kept the bottom of the bowl damp with fuel. The guy gave up and just went with a holley. Good thing it wasn't mine...i would've taken a sledge to it 

If Mike is running a return line from the regulator, tell him it needs to be at least the same size as the feed line or the pump can overheat. Sounds like the radiant heat from the collecter was contributing to the problem. Let's hope it's fixed so he can enjoy the car 


Ron