It used to be a 69 daytona

[A12 Superbee]

This car is on Graveyard Cars Facebook page right now, asking people if it can be saved....

[Indygenerallee]

Im gonna piss off a lot of people on here but if that "Daytona" is rebuilt it will just be a re-body in my eyes...

[StoneCold]

This car is on Graveyard Cars Facebook page right now, asking people if it can be saved....

https://www.facebook.com/graveyardcarz/posts/10152284205222918

[Ghoste]

Im gonna piss off a lot of people on here but if that "Daytona" is rebuilt it will just be a re-body in my eyes...

I agree.

[held1823]

best facebook quote of the lot


"anytime a daytona dies, a 318 charger gains a wing"

[Nwcharger]

Im gonna piss off a lot of people on here but if that "Daytona" is rebuilt it will just be a re-body in my eyes...

I respect your opinion 100% and in no way does it upset me. But can I ask why? I still plan on using every single piece of the original body as i possibly can. I know there's a fine line with resto and rebody for some but the way I see it is if you have more than just numbers, and are willing to devote the time and money to fix what is left of the car, and are willing to completely document everthing done, then there's no difference in this car than a car that needs quarters, floors and roof. A rebody i my opinion would be simply pulling the numbers and putting them on another car. If I wanted to do that I would have put them on my clone 2 years ago and been done with it. This hobby is about passion for these cars and they should be brought back if they're still around. If this car was literally just numbers restoration would never happen. At least by me.

[RallyeMike]

The classic '"rebody" definition is swapping numbers from one car to another. But how much sheet metal has to remain to NOT be a rebody?

Honestly, by weight, how much do you think can be saved? 5%? 10?. At even 20% (which I do not see as possible) = the car will have had most all of the sheet metal replaced. Hard not to call that rebodied just because you take a longer, slower, and more expensive way of replacing nearly everything.

There will never be agreement on this one. Like you said, the important thing is that another Daytona gets back on the road. I'm rooting for you!

[JB400]

I guess the question to ask is: At what point is a vehicle no longer a vehicle?  We've had members here and fellow Mopar brothers and sisters on other sites that literally took a less valuable car down to just a firewall and  inner roof structure and still have a car that gets  and    Now we have a valuable car getting redone with at least a firewall and a few other pieces and getting 

This hobby could really use a standard definition.

[Redbird]

I applaud the owner of these pieces for being upfront on what he is doing and plans to do. Being upfront is a lot more than some others have done in similar circumstances.

This seems to me to be a few pieces of a car that once existed, and a title. From what little I know about cars, a title is an instrument that conveys ownership of an object in an organized manner so that ownership can be traced in a legal manner. Again from what little I know, an automobile title is not a document that allows someone to manufacture a car. I believe very few entities actually have the legal authority and ability to actually manufacture an automobile.

I don't understand how anyone can say "my Daytona" in this case in the context of anything except the title and a few pieces.

Grafting these few pieces together with pieces of a bunch of other cars doesn't make a real Daytona. It makes a Frankenstein. I just do not believe someone can manufacture a car, with a bunch of diverse pieces, simply by saying all the pieces were made 45 years ago by Chrysler.  A 1969 318 Charger with original Daytona parts on it is not a real Daytona either, it is a clone. Chrysler made all the real 1969 Daytonas in 1969. I get that making this whole thing a giant heroic project may seem a great undertaking. I do not think one gets "extra credit" for a heroic effort.

It just seems like a sad deal. For me, the idea that anyone could use a few pieces and with those pieces create a driving Daytona is a sad reflection on misplaced values.  I understand the desire to have something, it being out of financial sight, and grasping for any way to imagine that one really might somehow get it. Saying "someone else has done way worse than this ", is what a teenager says to their parent when they don't get to stay out on a Friday night.

From the pictures and text shown, to me, whatever this car was appears to have left this earth a long time ago. I feel sad for the owner of the remaining pieces.

[odcics2]

I guess the question to ask is: At what point is a vehicle no longer a vehicle?  We've had members here and fellow Mopar brothers and sisters on other sites that literally took a less valuable car down to just a firewall and  inner roof structure and still have a car that gets  and    Now we have a valuable car getting redone with at least a firewall and a few other pieces and getting 

This hobby could really use a standard definition.

Perhaps it's as simple as: The original car to be restored needs to be able to roll on it's own 4 wheels.         

That would suggest enough integrity of the car remains.     

[Nwcharger]

I guess the question to ask is: At what point is a vehicle no longer a vehicle?  We've had members here and fellow Mopar brothers and sisters on other sites that literally took a less valuable car down to just a firewall and  inner roof structure and still have a car that gets  and    Now we have a valuable car getting redone with at least a firewall and a few other pieces and getting 

This hobby could really use a standard definition.

Perhaps it's as simple as: The original car to be restored needs to be able to roll on it's own 4 wheels.         

That would suggest enough integrity of the car remains.     

So would my 70 v code 4 speed superbee be considered a rebody because the right rear framerail is toast and it can only roll on 3 wheels? Do you consider any of the real race daytonas or birds rebodied or do those not count? So every Mopar that has had the rear frame rails, quarters, floors replaced due to rust is a rebody because it didn't have integrity to no longer safely drive? I don't think I agree.

[FJ5WING]

Nwcharger,
Save your breath and don't get into it.

Theres going to be enough of that along the way, don't get burned out before you get started!

[hemi68charger]

Nwcharger,
Save your breath and don't get into it.

Theres going to be enough of that along the way, don't get burned out before you get started!

Agreed...... Just be honest and everything will fall into place............. If you want to save this Daytona, then save it..... It is a passion, go with it........... Granted, the amount of dollars recouped if ever sold will probably be way short of the dollars spent on the Restoration / Resurrection. If one can live with that, go for it.......... 

[DC_1]

Its your car, your title, your money , and your time. You are being upfront and honest about what you are doing. I say as long as you are not trying to pass it off as something it is not to some unsuspecting future buyer than by all means bring it back from the dead.

If you think about it, even from the factory these cars started off as one thing and were cobbled together and morphed into something else!

[Mike DC]

  
IMO the classic car hobby should have long ago created a separate respectable class of vehicles for swapped VINs.  

As in, something that is a bit less valuable than a true original, but still an acceptable way for a valuable/rare car to live on.  Let people rebody a specific original car, complete with its VIN tags and matching equipment, no grand theft auto involved in the story, etc.  


The collector car hobby doesn't seem to mind it when people basically rebody a car as long as it gets done one-panel-at-a-time.  We should just let people swap the VINs, documenting the whole process, keeping a good paper trail & pics of the history, etc, and be done with it.  As long as there was once an original version of the exact same car, and as long as there is only one copy of that exact car remaining today, it's basically the same result we have now.  But it would mean a lot less labor & butchering the bodies of all the cars involved for the sake of paperwork.    

[Ghoste]

All good points.  I suppose when the values shot into the stratosphere and people began doing some shady things to cash, the fear of fraud gave the rebody notion some bad vibes too.

[charger500440]

My 2 cents. To me there are two things that need to happen in order for the car to be saved in a way that preserves it as an "original" Daytona. One, the amount of restoration work should be documented and made known to all (which John is up front about doing) and two, some portion (the more the better) of the original shell of the car should be preserved (which John plans on doing). So to me, the car is worth salvaging. Will it ever be worth as much as an un-restored or all original Daytona, no. But that's not the point.

The main point is that an original Daytona is being salvaged from an almost certain death, which is something we can all get behind. The car is what it is, which will affect it's value in the market, but doesn't change what the car means as part of the hobby. I see no reason to scrap it because it'll never be a top dollar car...

Mike

[held1823]

 
IMO the classic car hobby should have long ago created a separate respectable class of vehicles for swapped VINs.  

As in, something that is a bit less valuable than a true original, but still an acceptable way for a valuable/rare car to live on.  Let people rebody a specific original car, complete with its VIN tags and matching equipment, no grand theft auto involved in the story, etc.  


The collector car hobby doesn't seem to mind it when people basically rebody a car as long as it gets done one-panel-at-a-time.  We should just let people swap the VINs, documenting the whole process, keeping a good paper trail & pics of the history, etc, and be done with it.  As long as there was once an original version of the exact same car, and as long as there is only one copy of that exact car remaining today, it's basically the same result we have now.  But it would mean a lot less labor & butchering the bodies of all the cars involved for the sake of paperwork.    

what does using the VIN of a non-existent vehicle have to do with this scenario? the less desirable car suddenly ceases to exist solely by VIN number, because THAT car is the one being paraded around with the fake ID of a long dead car? people ooh and ahhh over pretenders at car shows every summer without looking at the vin numbers. most owners of a clone don't hesitate to call it by the real car's name, but do not bother with changing the numbers. the only plausible reason for swapping the numbers on any type of recreation/re-body/clone/tribute is to hopefully increase its value.  

as a few here (myself included) have said, it's his decision and his money. i can't see him abandoning his pipe dream now with so much money already invested in just obtaining the carcass. if he does bail on the project, then what? haul it to the recycle center to collect $75 for the scrap metal? that is never going to happen. as long as the numbers for this daytona exist, someone, somewhere, will "recreate" this car. i admire the integrity of the current owner, but he won't live forever. somewhere down the line, someone WILL forget to mention all of this "documentation".

my unasked for opinion is the p.o.s. should have never been dragged up the hill, and the numbers should be destroyed.

[Wingnut426]

In 1979 I bought my first Superbird from Gary Lazar in New City , New York.  Gary had just built a Superbird convertible from a wrecked Hemi Superbird and a very rare factory pink Sport Satellite convertible.  Right away people were saying, (don't buy a car from him, he builds fake cars". 
In 1990 I fixed a Superbird that was nearly torn in half.  I used as much of the structure of the car I could and I changed the car to a 4-speed. I also installed a factory power sunroof.  I figured since the car was not original anymore, why not change things.  I was up front with everyone including the guy that bought the car from me.  He ended up selling the car through a broker that listed the car as, "the only Superbird to come from the factory with a power sunroof."
So my point is, it doesn't matter if you are up front with what you are doing, down the road somebody is going to change the story, or omit certain parts of the story. In 50 years nobody is going to care how the car came to be other than it has the correct VIN number, so it must be real.  Wingnut

[Aero426]

So my point is, it doesn't matter if you are up front with what you are doing, down the road somebody is going to change the story, or omit certain parts of the story. In 50 years nobody is going to care how the car came to be other than it has the correct VIN number, so it must be real.  Wingnut

That's a fact.

[Nwcharger]

So my point is, it doesn't matter if you are up front with what you are doing, down the road somebody is going to change the story, or omit certain parts of the story. In 50 years nobody is going to care how the car came to be other than it has the correct VIN number, so it must be real.  Wingnut

That's a fact.

I agree but the only difference I see now is the Internet is huge. This car I think will be forever known. Just type the vin on google. But I do know what your saying. Stories always get messed up over time. Wonder how it will go? Maybe something crazy like a car chase that ended like the vanishing point with a bulldozer.

[held1823]

ah yes, the internet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_CgPsGY5Mw

[Mike DC]

what does using the VIN of a non-existent vehicle have to do with this scenario? the less desirable car suddenly ceases to exist solely by VIN number, because THAT car is the one being paraded around with the fake ID of a long dead car? people ooh and ahhh over pretenders at car shows every summer without looking at the vin numbers. most owners of a clone don't hesitate to call it by the real car's name, but do not bother with changing the numbers. the only plausible reason for swapping the numbers on any type of recreation/re-body/clone/tribute is to hopefully increase its value.  

I'm not saying it's a wonderful idea we should all love.  I'm saying the idea was called for.  IMO the hobby would have been better off with it.  

The last 30 years have proven that if you don't give people a legit option for re-creating dead cars, they will resort to illegitimate means or impractical amounts of resto work.  At least if the classic car world had created a respectable option for it then there would be less fraud and less impractical resto efforts.  Not none, but far less.  




Yeah, I know a lot of guys are bothered by rebodies and cars restored around a VIN tag with virtually nothing original remaining.  

But there are originality-freaks in the hobby that don't like even less intense restorations.  It frustrates them to see most nice restorations (which are usually nicer than original even in the "OE stock" classes) being equally/more popular than original survivors.  

It's all an opinion.  Where do you draw the line?  

[Indygenerallee]

But can I ask why? I still plan on using every single piece of the original body as i possibly can.

From what I have seen of the parts of the car left there just isn't much there, IMO if over 50% is missing/gone/unusable then in my terms of thinking its a re body, I guess if you have that kind of money to put into basically bringing back a VIN plate and will have WAY more money into it then what you could buy a nice restored original Daytona for.

[charger500440]

But can I ask why? I still plan on using every single piece of the original body as i possibly can.

From what I have seen of the parts of the car left there just isn't much there, IMO if over 50% is missing/gone/unusable then in my terms of thinking its a re body, I guess if you have that kind of money to put into basically bringing back a VIN plate and will have WAY more money into it then what you could buy a nice restored original Daytona for.

I see your point but it's all subjective. One famous Mopar guy (we'll refer to him anonymously here as Galen), suggested I part out my 500 because the fender tag and b/c sheet are missing. Another offered me twice what I paid for it so he could make a Daytona clone. I've chosen to keep it and will (soon I hope) bring it back to life. To you the break-up point is 50%, to me it's much higher, to each his own. There is no one answer. Personally, I'd prefer we try to salvage every one of these beasts now, because a generation or two down the line will have no interest in doing so. If the cars are chopped up now, that's it.

For many folks in the "hobby" today the idea that someday these cars will be worth half (or even less) than what they are worth today is impossible to accept. They have too much invested or they expect to retire when they finally sell "the collection". To me, I'm in it because I love the cars and I love driving them. Wingnut is right, you never know what can happen down the road but one thing is for sure, if we scrap John's Daytona now, it'll never go down any road again. To me, that would be a real shame...